Do you love your job/airframe? If so, why?

[brabus]

So, from what Im gathering here is that you gotta make the best of whatever you get

Shack. You can find things that suck or something to bitch about in every airframe. OR you can find the good things and have fun in any airframe. Some people's personalities/characteristics may mesh better in some communities over others. Overall, have goals and ideas of what you want to fly, but always keep your mind open because you don't want to be the guy who shows up to your FTU with a bad attitude because the airframe you got at assignment night wasn't what you were hoping for. I'll admit that's easy for me to say seeing I got what I wanted, but the truest statement in life (even outside the AF or what you fly) is "attitude is everything." A good one will get you far, a bad one will just make life suck.

[Seriously]

I think you'll find two types of people in life: the bitter contrarian who'd be unhappy no matter what he ended up flying and everyone else who thinks their airframe/community is the best thing since sliced bread.

But to actually contribute, I'm of the latter persuasion.

Exactly.

[FUSEPLUG]

It sucks, but I must say, airdrop is the one and only way to fly the C-17. Throwing shit out the back... its the other half of the jet and is the one and only reason to fly it IMHO.

Can of worms, bro. To each his own, but as an (AC) airdropper, I can honestly say I prefer the airland mission. Don't get me wrong, airdrop is fun, but the premission planning involved in the 17 community is way overkill. Throw formation into the equation and it becomes mind-numbing. I blame the WIC guys. (That's a joke.)

There is a lot on the line when throwing 40 bundles over a DZ on the side of a mountain, which warrants the hours spent over Falconview and a MDC. But there is something to be said for being alerted having no idea where you're off to, being handed a package, a tactics binder, an intel brief and being airborne 3 hours later.

I do agree that being able to fully utilize the aircraft in all aspects for which it was designed is pretty sweet, but kudos to the boys and girls who choose to stick airland.

[Chuck17]

Take it to PMs, check yours. I'll fling poo at my own community via PM, lets be positive here.

Chuck

[Guest CharlieFoxtrot]

Wow, lots of good info here. I have another question, though. Do any of you here wish you had not joined the Air Force/AFRES/ANG and become a civilian pilot instead? In your opinion does military aviation beat civilian aviation? (Keep in mind I'm asking in your opinion, not in general).

Edited January 7, 2010 by CharlieFoxtrot

[Bergman]

Wow, lots of good info here. I have another question, though. Do any of you here wish you had not joined the Air Force/AFRES/ANG and become a civilian pilot instead? In your opinion does military aviation beat civilian aviation? (Keep in mind I'm asking in your opinion, not in general).

Oh Lord, please don't open the "military vs. civilian" can of worms!

For me, I don't regret it for a second. I wouldn't have it any other way, and in fact if I can find a way to feed the family while never having to fly commercial aircraft, that'd be great by me.

I am assuming you meant commerical aviation (semantics difference there vs. civilian). Don't know if there is any comparison between military and GA flying, other than the laws of physics. FWIW, I plan on building an RV-8 some day, so I definitely will be flying civilian eventually.

[disgruntledemployee]

Wow, lots of good info here. I have another question, though. Do any of you here wish you had not joined the Air Force/AFRES/ANG and become a civilian pilot instead? In your opinion does military aviation beat civilian aviation? (Keep in mind I'm asking in your opinion, not in general).

What the hell dude, you trying to write a paper or something? Your troll count just went up.

Out

[Guest CharlieFoxtrot]

What the hell dude, you trying to write a paper or something? Your troll count just went up.

Out

Troll count? Wha? Maybe you and I have a different definition of troll.

I should hope that common sense is telling you that maybe I'm just gathering information before I commit 10+ years of my life to something.

Oh Lord, please don't open the "military vs. civilian" can of worms!

For me, I don't regret it for a second. I wouldn't have it any other way, and in fact if I can find a way to feed the family while never having to fly commercial aircraft, that'd be great by me.

I am assuming you meant commerical aviation (semantics difference there vs. civilian). Don't know if there is any comparison between military and GA flying, other than the laws of physics. FWIW, I plan on building an RV-8 some day, so I definitely will be flying civilian eventually.

Sorry, I should have specified. I mean civilian flying as a career, not as a hobby.

Edited January 7, 2010 by CharlieFoxtrot

[Guest WNFRED]

They're sitting on an ETIC.

You're right I am sitting on an ETIC. In Germany making tons of per diem Done the herk thing for a long time and when you get older Freddie is a nice alternative. Think about it. NEVER deploy, the thing is a perdiem machine, very comfortable ride, and the thing is the easiest thing I've ever had the pleasure of flying. Now I will say the 24 hour days and the constant ETICS suck but overall its a nice ride.

[sputnik]

I'll be one of the rare ones on this website. I love the airplane but I do not like my job. The C-17 has awesome capabilities and when you are downrange employing it tactically it cant be beat. However, thats only a small part of the actual airland mission I'm currently in.....I'm very lucky to be in any airplane in the Air Force so it definitely could be worse. I'm a great example of you have to choose the MISSION that interests you the most, not particularly the aircraft.

Step into the light young one. By which I mean, come to PACAF. It's way better here.

I disagree with Chuck, I love airland and got zero love for AD. That said, I flew with him on a 15 ship MAFEX and it was pretty damn cool. Something I love about the C17, he and I like completely different things about mission, but we both love the jet. I've flown it for 10 years and still enjoy the hell out of it.

[killacam]

Do any of you here wish you had not joined the Air Force/AFRES/ANG and become a civilian pilot instead? In your opinion does military aviation beat civilian aviation? (Keep in mind I'm asking in your opinion, not in general).

For me, I don't regret it for a second. I wouldn't have it any other way, and in fact if I can find a way to feed the family while never having to fly commercial aircraft, that'd be great by me.

Allow me to add to CF's question:

It is my understanding that back in the pre-9/11 days a lot of AF pilots were being pulled into more lucrative careers flying commercially for the big name airliners once their initial 10 year ADSC was up (hence the bonus). Where are ex-AF pilots going these days? Surely the commercial airliners are not as attractive as they were back in the day.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for an out-- I foresee myself as a 20 year guy at the least... just hoping for some words of wisdom on what life after the AF is like from some dudes who are a lot closer than me.

[Butters]

Allow me to add to CF's question:

It is my understanding that back in the pre-9/11 days a lot of AF pilots were being pulled into more lucrative careers flying commercially for the big name airliners once their initial 10 year ADSC was up (hence the bonus). Where are ex-AF pilots going these days? Surely the commercial airliners are not as attractive as they were back in the day.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for an out-- I foresee myself as a 20 year guy at the least... just hoping for some words of wisdom on what life after the AF is like from some dudes who are a lot closer than me.

Prior to 9-11 pilots had a 8 year ADSC. They were not being "pulled into" they were running in a flat out sprint for the airlines. The war of the 90s (Clinton Administration) was tough on a lot of guys and they wanted out. I will not go into it but there is more to the bonus than pure retention, it is primarily used to predict (poorly) future manning.

Pilots these days in the C-17 community are going in all directions; airlines, reserves, BOEING (flying or sims), marrying into money followed by school, starting businesses with the MBAs they decided to get on the AF's dime and so on.

[hindsight2020]

Why - It's simple, I'm getting paid to do something I truly love to do. Shit, I would pay to do what I get to do. There's a lot of people out there working a job that maybe even pays decently, but they hate it. They're doing it for the paycheck. Fuck that...that's not how I want to live my life. So, I'm very lucky to be doing something I have a passion for vs. doing something just to pay the bills.

Yep, I'm happy as hell with my airframe and wouldn't change a thing. My bet is most guys will say this.

I'd be careful with that ^^ statement. Part of the reason the pilot profession outside the military "union" gets paid so poorly (how ironic, pay protectionism is the devil incarnate around these circles, except for when talking the highly justified expense of us aviation super heroes...) as a median worker is precisely because of that attitude. I guarantee you if the Air Force decided tomorrow to adjust the pay scale to account for the fact that you'd do that job for free, your outlook on the other 90% of your Viper pilot day (CBT, chairforce meetings, snacko, PME, CBT, briefs, briefs.... briefs) would start to chafe you just a tad more, lickity split. Heck, even the flying would start to feel a little less awesome than accidentally falling on ms. america's slutty drunken wet poon in vegas.

For the rest of the peanut gallery that doesn't get the opportunity to add military aviation to their resume, working for a living and [insert your passion in life here] for self-actualization on your own dime and time is not a bad compromise at all. Getting to love what you do for a living is a great privilege, but it's uncommon, precisely because it's not always economically viable. That doesn't make the majority morally bankrupt. It just makes you lucky. And to your credit, you concede you were lucky in having the opportunity of getting to be in your specific vocational position.

---break break---

Somebody mentioned attitude. This is a pet peeve of mine. Flamesuit on.

The problem people have with internalizing the role "lucky" has on your life is that it dilutes the weight of this "attitude" concept we keep crutching on. Most type A's are what I call "luck denialists". You have to be one by definition. The thing about attitude is that as much as people get the sense that it is a requisite for "success" (wiki 'optimism-bias' for a phsycological "etymology" of where our affinity for this concept of "attitude" really stems from), in reality all attitude does is make us copacetic about the fact that we can't all be Lebron James in our collective and professional lives. Put simply, life ain't kindergarten, we can't all win just by virtue of participating. "Attitude" bridges that deficit and appeases the losers. Also note that it is usually only the winners in life that complain about other's attitude. Why is this? Simple. Winning as a social currency has no value if the loser can demonstrate the playing field is not even (and we know life ain't...). Then winning just becomes a predictable outcome of enviromental factors, and a nominal work ethic; the latter which the majority of people confuse with "attitude". This diluted social value is something the winners can't afford. Otherwise Lebron James wouldn't get the mad jack for putting a an inconsequential leather ball through an inconsequential metal hoop.

One can achieve a great deal of "success" without a pollyanna disposition. I'm a bitter skeptic of human interactions, yet I've managed to complete two college educations, compete for and attain a shot at pilot training, and complete a qualification course that bestows upon me the privilege of serving my country in a flying capacity. <-- This I "LOVE", my airframe? Meh, I rather do acro and fly single-seat, and teach others the joys of "pure" flying the way that can only be exchanged while upside down with a prop or no engine at all up front :)

Just some random thoughts from your neighbor's friendly devil's advocate.

this manifesto is not sanctioned or representative of the views of baseops.net or their affiliates :)

[Bayou_Eagle_Driver]

...whew. My head hurts.

Joking aside, there are some decent (albeit debateable) points there.

[Bergman]

Allow me to add to CF's question:

It is my understanding that back in the pre-9/11 days a lot of AF pilots were being pulled into more lucrative careers flying commercially for the big name airliners once their initial 10 year ADSC was up (hence the bonus). Where are ex-AF pilots going these days? Surely the commercial airliners are not as attractive as they were back in the day.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for an out-- I foresee myself as a 20 year guy at the least... just hoping for some words of wisdom on what life after the AF is like from some dudes who are a lot closer than me.

Like Butters said, they weren't being pulled, they were running to the airlines. A lot has changed since then. With all of the airline bankruptcies, pilot pay is a fraction of what it used to be (for example, all Delta pilots took a 34% pay cut after 9/11, plus lost their company-funded retirements), what little job security there was with the major airlines is essentially gone (nearly every airline has furloughed pilots since 9/11. UPS is talking about it right now!), plus the fact that no one is hiring right now, so even if you wanted to go to the airlines you are screwed. So yeah, definitely not as attactive as they once were.

IMHO, the only way an airline career would be viable is to have either a spouse that makes enough money to support the family, or have a 20 year retirement check from the government, so you know you're covered when you get furloughed. To get out of the AD at 32 years old, a few little kids, and stay-at-home spouse, and count on an airline to provide for you for 20+ years is, these days, pure folly.

[afnav]

Like Butters said, they weren't being pulled, they were running to the airlines. A lot has changed since then. With all of the airline bankruptcies, pilot pay is a fraction of what it used to be (for example, all Delta pilots took a 34% pay cut after 9/11, plus lost their company-funded retirements), what little job security there was with the major airlines is essentially gone (nearly every airline has furloughed pilots since 9/11. UPS is talking about it right now!), plus the fact that no one is hiring right now, so even if you wanted to go to the airlines you are screwed. So yeah, definitely not as attactive as they once were.

IMHO, the only way an airline career would be viable is to have either a spouse that makes enough money to support the family, or have a 20 year retirement check from the government, so you know you're covered when you get furloughed. To get out of the AD at 32 years old, a few little kids, and stay-at-home spouse, and count on an airline to provide for you for 20+ years is, these days, pure folly.

All true.

I knew three pilots that flew with me in AWACS prior to 9/11. All wrote 'do not promote me' letters, all were passed over, all received invol sep pay, all were hired by the airlines, all were furloughed after 9/11, all went back on active duty, and all made O5.

It was proof-positive for me that there is no God.

[contraildash]

Like Butters said, they weren't being pulled, they were running to the airlines. A lot has changed since then. With all of the airline bankruptcies, pilot pay is a fraction of what it used to be (for example, all Delta pilots took a 34% pay cut after 9/11, plus lost their company-funded retirements), what little job security there was with the major airlines is essentially gone (nearly every airline has furloughed pilots since 9/11. UPS is talking about it right now!), plus the fact that no one is hiring right now, so even if you wanted to go to the airlines you are screwed. So yeah, definitely not as attactive as they once were.

IMHO, the only way an airline career would be viable is to have either a spouse that makes enough money to support the family, or have a 20 year retirement check from the government, so you know you're covered when you get furloughed. To get out of the AD at 32 years old, a few little kids, and stay-at-home spouse, and count on an airline to provide for you for 20+ years is, these days, pure folly.

Cycles though...my old man was telling me about all the DCA's going through the USCG in the mid-to-late 80's to get Falcon time and then peace'ing out ASAP to FedEX to fly said Falcons. (FedEX, UPS, ect are still sweet gigs from what I've been told) Who knows when the airlines will recover, if ever now, but I expect it'll continue the cyclic trend and improve at some point. Not sure what the NetJet type gigs are like these days. Last time I talked to a friend that flies Challengers, it wasn't all that great either.

[skinny]

Not sure what the NetJet type gigs are like these days. Last time I talked to a friend that flies Challengers, it wasn't all that great either.

My old man is flying Dassault Falcon 2000s for Net Jets right now. They recently laid off 500 pilots, luckily Pops had enough seniority to stick around, but it's bad everywhere right now.

Edited January 7, 2010 by skinny

[Bergman]

All true.

I knew three pilots that flew with me in AWACS prior to 9/11. All wrote 'do not promote me' letters, all were passed over, all received invol sep pay, all were hired by the airlines, all were furloughed after 9/11, all went back on active duty, and all made O5.

It was proof-positive for me that there is no God.

Hmm...I prefer to think there just isn't any justice. As always...Rule #1: Timing is everything, Rule #2: Life isn't fair, Rule #: There is no justice. The three tenets of a happy AF career.

Or, perhaps there is justice. If there wasn't, they wouldn't have been able to get back on AD or make O-5.

(FedEX, UPS, ect are still sweet gigs from what I've been told)

That all depends on how you define "sweet gig". Yes, their pay scales are industry-leading right now, but quality of life is not so good for the junior guys. I have watched first-hand as many of my squadron mates have been displaced from their cozy Louisville, KY, domicle to scenic Anchorage, AK. The good news is that they were "forced" to switch to the MD-11 or B-747, but the schedules they fly are awful, especially since most of them haven't moved to Alaska. They will have 13 day trips, off for 5 days, then another 13 day trip. Add a day-long commute on either end of those UPS trips and they get 3 days off. Oh wait, they still have ANG obligations to fulfill, so make that 1 day off. FedEx is doing the same thing...displacing peope to Paris, Hong Kong, etc.

I just think there isn't any "fairy tale" airline career any more. The days of making $300,000/year to work 10 days a month, plus fly F-4s with the ANG on the weekend, all the while living in domicile, then getting a sweet $100,000/year company funded retirement are over. If you have a realistic expectation for an airline career - $80,000-$100,000 and gone from home 150-180 days per year - then you won't be disappointed. Compare that to $110,000+ per year as an AF Major and TDY 100-120 days per year, plus pretty good job security. I'll stick with Uncle Sam on this one.

[Guest soflguy]

Wow, lots of good info here. I have another question, though. Do any of you here wish you had not joined the Air Force/AFRES/ANG and become a civilian pilot instead? In your opinion does military aviation beat civilian aviation? (Keep in mind I'm asking in your opinion, not in general).

Not to fan the flame of military vs. civilian, but I couldn't be more happy flying than I am right now. Aside from the fact that I love the jet I am in, love the location, and have an absolute blast flying; I still wouldn't trade it for civilian flying. I see my friends who graduated with me and are still making <$25,000 a year, are stuck in some crap small commuter airline or as a flight instructor with shit schedules, shit pay, and barely able to make rent and their loan payments. I have also seen most of them apply to the ANG/AFRES because they need the extra cash, and want a little bit better flying experience. So, I consider myself lucky to have my job and wouldn't trade it for any of their jobs ever. Just my $.02 based on the experiences of my friends.

[contraildash]

Thanks for painting the real picture Bergman and Skinny....I already feel pretty damn lucky with my job, this kinda stuff just shores up that idea even more.

[busdriver]

How is a Major making over 110k a year? I just tried running the numbers and came up with around 90k (guy at the 12yr point) just like the airline numbers you quoted. Doesn't take anything away from your point however. My only question is will I try for a Guard/Reserve job once my commitment is up.

[Smokin]

I love my job, I just hate the Air Force. That doesn't mean that I'd think about the Navy or something, I'd probably hate that even more. I really just don't like the pussification of the military in general, but I don't think that anything short of WWIII would change that (and maybe not even then). Reference the human weapon system thread.

I fly the Viper (although I'm just starting my ALFA tour right now) and have loved it. There's nothing more fun than low level pop attacks on the range, nothing more challenging than 4vX DCA sorties, and I'd imagine nothing more rewarding than knowing that guys on the ground are going to live to see their family again because you were there (never actually been downrange myself, so that last part is speculation on my part).

The pace of an ops assignment will wear you down, but I've found that it is all the extra queep that big blue sticks us with that really wears you out. After getting home from a 12+ hour day where we double or triple turned good sorties, I'm physically tired. But after even a 10 hour day of work that I consider to be worthless and am only doing because some two star somewhere made an off-hand remark about wanting some more information on something, I get home and am far more tired (mentally and physically) than a tougher day doing something worthwhile.

And to the C-5 guy who said C-5 pilots don't deploy; yes, you don't deploy as a unit or even as aircrews, but I personally know C-5 pilots who have been non-vol'd on individual non-fly deployments.

[Danny Noonin]

How is a Major making over 110k a year?

Flight pay, BAH, etc. It happens. I've got old LES's to prove it.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Danny Noonin

[busdriver]

I forgot about BAH, my bad. Damn overseas assignment messed up my view.