Strike Eagles and BFM/ACM

[Guest WildBill]

Obviously the Air Force has the ability to be more "mission centric" vice the sister services which have a tendency to be "jack of all trades, master of none." Knowing this full well I'm curious about what experience/training Strike Eagle crews get on BFM/ACM. Do you all concentrate on A/G all the time and totally forgo BFM or am I missing something. This question is loaded but asked politely. Word.

[Ram]

The cool thing is that Strike Pig drivers always have a "buddy" to call their break turns and flares...

...kinda gives a new meaning to "I got your back." (No...there's no so to speak required.)

[brabus]

Well played Fury. Wildbill, of course fat kids are forced to practice BFM/ACM. It's like the fatty at school who's forced to play football in gym class and gets annihilated.

[bagasticks]

Well played Fury. Wildbill, of course fat kids are forced to practice BFM/ACM. It's like the fatty at school who's forced to play football in gym class and gets annihilated.

subsitute dodge ball for football. the hail-damaged kids did pretty well at gym football. .

[brabus]

Either way, the facts still stand.

[LJ Driver]

Obviously the Air Force has the ability to be more "mission centric" vice the sister services which have a tendency to be "jack of all trades, master of none." Knowing this full well I'm curious about what experience/training Strike Eagle crews get on BFM/ACM. Do you all concentrate on A/G all the time and totally forgo BFM or am I missing something. This question is loaded but asked politely. Word.

This is a narrow-minded and ignorant point of view. Do you really think that the sister services are the jack of all trades and master of none? That is absurd. How can you think that the Navy is not the master of the sea and the Army not the king of land warfare? Their aviation units do provide some non-tactical strike capability (particularly Navy), but the service as a whole is built around sea and land warfare, as it should be.

If anything, the Air Force is the one who is trying to be the jack of all trades and turning into the master of few. Air, space, cyberspace, ISR, etc etc etc. We are doing things and taking on missions that have little or nothing to do with being an AIR Force, and that is taking away serious manpower and resources from our core.

[lazlo]

At least we don't have a thread devoted to us crapping ourselves...

Edited February 19, 2010 by lazlo

[CrateOfThunder]

Well played Fury. Wildbill, of course fat kids are forced to practice BFM/ACM. It's like the fatty at school who's forced to play football in gym class and gets annihilated.

Dude, not to start a flame war, but are you even done with the B-Course yet? Have you ever fought a Strike before?

A clean viper is without a doubt better than a Strike with CFTs and PODs (our standard config). We don't take off everything to go out and fight BFM/ACM. That being said, I have fought Vipers, Hornets, and C-Models and will be the first to tell you... it is not always just the jet but the pilot that matters.

For the original question: Yeah we spend about 1/2 of our time on Air to Air sorties (BFM/ACM/DCA) and about half our time on A/G (SAT/CAS/BSA).

Our primary mission right now however is CAS -- and we are good at it. Hawgs and Strikes are what the guys on the ground want. Not Vipers with two bombs, short vul times, and inability to execute Yo-Yo ops.

rant//off

[Toro]

A clean viper is without a doubt better than a Strike with CFTs and PODs (our standard config). We don't take off everything to go out and fight BFM/ACM. That being said, I have fought Vipers, Hornets, and C-Models and will be the first to tell you... it is not always just the jet but the pilot that matters.

Ditto all. I've fought Hogs, Vipers, and Hornets and it's all about what you're doing, who you're fighting, and your game plan. I've seen Hornets pull amazing hi-AOA maneuvers that made my eyes water as he moved from a defensive perch to my six o'clock in a matter of seconds. At the follow on high-aspect engagement, I saddled up in a WEZ right below the guy because he underestimated what I could do in a low to high transition.

I watched high and dry as my wingman held his own to DLO termination with a Viper who thought that being able to pull 9Gs against a Strike Eagle - with no concept of vertical turning room or assessment of nose position and energy state - was a valid way to fight.

Thump your chest all you want about beating up the fat kids. That attitude going into a fight without a gameplan of how your aircraft can outmaneuver him is going to, best case scenario, surprise you. Worst case scenario you'll get your ass handed to you.

The training syllabi are broken down into a roughly 50/50 split of A/A vs A/G, but the emphasis is on A/G. Look at our doc statements and you'll see why - we generally don't do OCA/DCA as a primary mission when we're embedded with large forces, and we certainly don't do it in current operations.

[Mike Honcho]

At least we don't have a thread devoted to us crapping ourselves...

Now lazlo, what you've done is fight a fighting falcon driver's fight. You've given him time to realize he's doing DACT and download his pods and externals. The trick to Strike Eagle vs. falcon is call them about a day before and force them to fight with a standardish combat loadout. Just as we've seen young brabus do, they're very hesitant to poke their nose into a fight without a more experienced lead. Just ask them about relative targeting JDAM's, PW3, or yo-yo ops as Crate mentioned.

Or, if you're going to stoop to the level of talking about dropping a deuce in the jet, ask them who they know has done it on a combat sortie and still killed a few hadji that night. Not the highlight of their career, but roll calls have called out a few in the E model.

But yes, they can pull 9 G's. And then they'll walk over as they're doing CAS spinups and ask you no shit how to employ.

[Smokin]

The trick to Strike Eagle vs. falcon is call them about a day before and force them to fight with a standardish combat loadout.

Dude, do you really think that we're going to go to a merge with tanks on our jet? Our "standardish combat loadout" you're talking about is for A/G. If we merge, we're jetting our stores and we'll be clean (except the TGP), so if you want to do BFM against our "standardish combat loadout" we'll be clean.

Just ask them about relative targeting JDAM's, PW3, or yo-yo ops as Crate mentioned.

Ask any guy in my last squadron about any of these and he'll know plenty, even about the PW3 that we would never drop. If you think that any one community has a monopoly on weapon employment knowledge, you're an idiot.

But yes, they can pull 9 G's. And then they'll walk over as they're doing CAS spinups and ask you no shit how to employ.

Copy, you think every single Viper driver is completely ignorant on CAS. If you could get off your high horse for two minutes and look around, you will see Vipers doing at least our fair share downrange and training to CAS just as much as you are back home. If you really think this, and weren't just saying it to be funny, you have some serious issues.

[RASH]

Well played Hoss--well played!

[Guest Alarm Red]

1 - 9G BFM is usually bad BFM.

2 - Anyone who quips 'It is the pilot that matters, not the jet' is usually driving inferior hardware, or can't drive it well. It's the same as saying "my girlfriend may be obese, but she has a nice personality."

3 - Anyone who gets defensive about their MDS against total strangers on the internet is either shitty at flying their own hardware, or has serious inferiority issues about where they fit into the fight. Laying into another MDS online does substantially more to detract from your own community than it does to put down someone else's. Those who have it don't talk about it.

[busdriver]

Why is loyalty to your MDS required? To that community sure, but the actual airframe means almost nothing.

In other words, is it about the mission or the aircraft?

[Buddy Spike]

1) The Mudhen is not a BFM machine. It carries a lot of bombs. This is good. They try to do swing role every now and then, making them the 13th red air, but luckily that's just a flagism. They're really good in real war at putting a lot of bombs on target.

2) The Air Force spends more time training to the mission than admin phases like takeoff and landing like our sister services. Good job choosing that rate fight in your Hornet against a clean Block 30 big mouth. Let me know how that works out for you.

3) 2 to everything Alarm Red just said.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Buddy Spike

[Hacker]

Why is loyalty to your MDS required? To that community sure, but the actual airframe means almost nothing.

In other words, is it about the mission or the aircraft?

The problem is, everyone is bred to have a natural bias toward their own MDS because that is where they're brought up. They don't have the perspective to really know how good/bad another aircraft is at something...so it's natural to believe in broad generalizations that turn into intra-MDS sparring.

I know several F-15E pilots who came from other airframes -- A-10s, F-15Cs, and F-16s -- who point out that the Strike Eagle is a great all-around multirole fighter, but aren't so quick to bash the capabilities of those other airframes.

So, usually the people who hate on other airframes are the ones who don't really have any experience with those others (outside what they've heard at the bar and maybe seen from the outside during a Flag or some such). Ultimately it's just ignorance.

[Hacker]

Huge difference between "I want the experts in this situation" and "the other guys are f%cking clowns". There's nobody in any multirole airframe who is going to claim they're better at it than the "experts", ergo Hogs -- that's a given. Just like they won't claim that they're better at the air-to-air game than the light gray Eagle or Raptor.

Besides, on that video he cites the reason he doesn't recommend Eagles as being because it's a "fast moving jet" anyway, which has nothing to do with the knowledge, capabilities, or TTPs of the trigger-pullers in the cockpit.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Hacker

[Toro]

Yeah, but come on, you guys do a hell of a job bringing it on yourselves.

....as recorded one night when the grunts were in trouble and expected the "CAS aircraft" that checked in to actually be able to perform CAS.

Are you saying that's a Strike Eagle not wanting to do CAS? Doesn't sound like it from his comm - he says, "I don't even recommend F-15s for this" as opposed to "We're not the right jet for this." If it's not a Hog and it's not a Strike Eagle, sounds like it would be a Viper (assuming it's AF).

[Mike Honcho]

If it's not a Hog and it's not a Strike Eagle, sounds like it would be a Viper (assuming it's AF).

I thought he said I "bone" for shows of force only. B-1?

Smokin dude, the whole post was facetious. The jets are built to do different things, and if a thread is started with "all E model dudes are gay" or whatever the # 2 and 3 posts were trying to accomplish, do you think you're going to get a serious discussion?

[brabus]

Dude, not to start a flame war, but are you even done with the B-Course yet? Have you ever fought a Strike before?

Dude, calm down. It was a sarcastic joke. No I have absolutely no experience on the Mudhen subject...I was continuing the joking theme of the thread (at the time). I'm looking forward to a hopefully soon opportunity to see something other than a Viper.

[Whitman]

I'm looking forward to a hopefully soon opportunity to see something other than a Viper.

Like a pred?

[brabus]

Like fight against another fighter...dumbass!

[Toro]

I'm not shitting on the bros in this video, I'm sure they're doing the best they possibly can, just like I would be doing the best I could if the Air Force all of a sudden tasked me to fly SEAD or OCA in my Hog. ....I just like hearing the guy throw his flight under the bus using trucker comm on the Wacker freq that everyone and their cousin is monitoring.

Yeah, which is what made me think it wasn't a Strike Eagle guy.

If anything, take my rant and frustration as a commentary on the ass backwards prioritization that occurs at the CAOC and CRC on a daily basis whereby the most effective and lethal CAS aircraft (AH-64's/AC-130's/A-10's) are outright blocked from the fight because it takes us slightly longer (in some cases) to respond, and in other cases because the brass has a misplaced obsession and fascination with JDAM's...like watching the enemy move long before they impact.

From a CAOC perspective, the mentality ought to be to get somebody there as quick as possible in a time sensitive situation. A-10s should be fragged for CAS and fighters fragged for DT(XINT). But if a CAS situation pops up and the A-10s are going to take 30 minutes to get there vice the Strike Eagles in 10, get the Mudhens in and have the Hogs pick up when they arrive. It's the same thing for Sandy; you wouldn't hold off on CSAR because the Hogs are on GSAR alert and won't be there for 45 minutes - you send it whoever you have to provide cover until the guys who do it for living can get there. But if the A-10s in the AOR aren't even being fragged for CAS - foul.

As far as the comment on brass...shack.

[F16Deuce]

Our primary mission right now however is CAS -- and we are good at it. Hawgs and Strikes are what the guys on the ground want. Not Vipers with two bombs, short vul times, and inability to execute Yo-Yo ops.

rant//off

Right, because finding the tanker without a flight lead and getting gas is so cosmic.

I watched high and dry as my wingman held his own to DLO termination with a Viper who thought that being able to pull 9Gs against a Strike Eagle - with no concept of vertical turning room or assessment of nose position and energy state - was a valid way to fight.

WTF, were you guys fighting B-Coursers? Congratulations, your wingman beat someone with 69 hours in the jet.

But yes, they can pull 9 G's. And then they'll walk over as they're doing CAS spinups and ask you no shit how to employ.

I'm going to go ahead and call you out for being full of shit on that one. Any punk out of the B-Course can effectively employ any weapon we can carry.

There's alot of dick measuring going on in this thread on the Mudhen side, seems like all in response to some standard jokes. No need to get all defensive. I'm sure the Mudhen is a great jet...good fuel load, amount of ordnance, decent radar, etc...it just has too many seats in it. ;)

[SuperWSO]

I'm sure the Mudhen is a great jet...good fuel load, amount of ordnance, decent radar, etc...it just has too many seats in it. ;)

Yeah, the pilots helmet makes it hard to see shit off the nose.