Flight Instruction on AD

[spudsmac]

I just got passed up in ROTC for a rated slot, so I won't be flying in the AF unless they pull me from the alt list; I'm not counting on it. Anyways, I want to fly for a career once I get out of the AF and as of now have ASEL Comm and CFI, working on CFI-I and AMEL Comm. Not only do I want to fly while on AD, but I want to instruct and build hours. I have several questions that I will put below.

Assuming there is an aeroclub on base, would I be allowed to instruct on the side? If none on base, how about instructing off base?

What are the clubs normally like? What kinds of a/c do they usually have? Just light singles or twins too?

Would I even be able to work there, or is it normally old guys who have been around forever and won't leave?

Would most LTs even have time to instruct due to workload?

[EvilEagle]

I just got passed up in ROTC for a rated slot, so I won't be flying in the AF unless they pull me from the alt list; I'm not counting on it. Anyways, I want to fly for a career once I get out of the AF and as of now have ASEL Comm and CFI, working on CFI-I and AMEL Comm. Not only do I want to fly while on AD, but I want to instruct and build hours. I have several questions that I will put below.

Assuming there is an aeroclub on base, would I be allowed to instruct on the side? If none on base, how about instructing off base?

What are the clubs normally like? What kinds of a/c do they usually have? Just light singles or twins too?

Would I even be able to work there, or is it normally old guys who have been around forever and won't leave?

Would most LTs even have time to instruct due to workload?

Sorry you didn't get a pilot slot. Keep applying, you never know what will happen.

Many of the aeroclubs are going away, but the ones I've seen usually have civilians running the show. I have no doubt that if they need another instructor, you could work there. The club at Tyndall just doesn't have enough business to warrant two instructors. They have a few guys who will instruct there occasionally, but not full time.

The aeroclubs I've seen are light twin's only.

Good luck!

[Whitman]

It varies from base to base. Charleston AFB Aero club has 6 aircraft, with only 1 multi-engine, an Aztec I believe. The rates are affordable at AF aero clubs but the paperwork and hassle can make it worth the extra $15/hr to fly at a civilian field. Here's the CHS Aero club website

https://www.jbcharleston.com/recreation/aeroclub/index.html

Also, with your time and ratings, I would imagine you would be competitive for an active duty slot. Good luck man.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Whitman

[tac airlifter]

Keep trying for a rated slot. The aero club at Eglin has twins and single engine. Mostly it's run by civilians. Your boss needs to sign a form allowing you to take a second job while on active duty. Not a huge deal, my neighbor is doing it and he's a major. That being said, I think whether your boss signs off depends on your job and how much time you have. I'm going to try working as a CFI or MEI at the aero club myself when I return from my next deployment; consequently I don't know yet how feasible it is. I'll keep you posted on my experience. Seems like a good way to fly a little on weekends when I can't fly at work; and since I'd fly 7 days a week if I were allowed, I'm interested.

Edited to add: I had some experience with the old areo club at Quantico about 13 years ago, not sure if it still exists. My experience there was pretty negative, like you said, a lot of grumpy old guys who didn't want to let anyone else into their club. But I think that was the exception, not the rule. There was one in Hawaii when I lived there as well, but that was about 18 years ago so my knowledge is quite dated. My experiences there were great.

Edited February 25, 2010 by tac airlifter

[Soon To Be E6B]

I'm interested in this question also. Just because big blue says I should sit in back doesn't mean I'm going to stop flying on the GA side.

Also is it feasible to own your own plane while on AD? I'm really getting the itch to use my commissioning loan to buy a Cherokee 180.

[Whitman]

I'm interested in this question also. Just because big blue says I should sit in back doesn't mean I'm going to stop flying on the GA side.

Also is it feasible to own your own plane while on AD? I'm really getting the itch to use my commissioning loan to buy a Cherokee 180.

Stiffler can help you out with that one, he has a nice Piper Arrow that I've flown a good bit in....but he might be a little busy right now!

[F16Rooster]

Like everyone else said, keep trying. There are AD boards once a year or you can take the advice of everyone I've talked to and work on getting a guard slot. My guard career is just about to start but from what I can tell so far, it's head and shoulders above AD. I was in a situation similar to yours and an old retired pilot chewed me out for being a negative nancy, told me to pull my head out of my ass and keep trying. Best advice I ever got.

[Dupe]

Here's some Aeroclub facts:

-AFI 34-217 is a broad-brush description of what Aeroclubs are. Note that many Air Force safety and maintainance regs also apply to Aeroclubs.

-AFMAN 34-232 is the governing document for Aeroclubs and is much more detailed than AFI 34-217.

-At least at my Aeroclub, CFIs are not NAF employees like the club manager and chief pilot are. Instead, they're private contractors.

-Aeroclubs are required to be part 141 schools

-You can use Tuition Assitance to cover any Aeroclub ground school and the Montgomery GI Bill (but NOT post 9/11) to partially pay for training beyond your PPL.

-You can use an Aeroclub aircraft for TDY travel. It is sometimes more beneficial for the government to have you and a buddy drop you off and pick you up TDY in a GA airplane than it is for the government to pay SATO for our rediculous full-fare fully refundable airline tickets.

[HuggyU2]

Yes, we have had young, active duty folks do CFI duty at our Aero Club (Beale).

I'm a CFI, and the form you get your commander to sign then goes to Legal, where they should concur.

Owning an airplane: our pilot community is quite small (and a bit older), and in the past year we have had pilots that own: 3 Cubs, 2 Stearmann, 2 Stinson, 1 Bucker, 1 Quicksilver, 1 Pitts, 1 Yankee. I'd own one myself, but prefer to rent for now.

If you do buy, consider 1-2 solid partners.

Why the Cherokee 180?

[stract]

I know a guy who travelled to/from his TDY in a Cessna, along with someone else. Finance tried to not reimburse the pax on the grounds of him not having a PPL, which was total BS. It was his mode of transportation so finally they saw the light...

[Jughead]

-You can use an Aeroclub aircraft for TDY travel. It is sometimes more beneficial for the government to have you and a buddy drop you off and pick you up TDY in a GA airplane than it is for the government to pay SATO for our rediculous full-fare fully refundable airline tickets.

True. Not unique to the Aero Club, though--you can, in fact, use *any* GA aircraft (owned or rented) for TDY travel. The rules are pretty similar to using a POV: you get reimbursed for your direct costs (from memory, I believe the rate is $1.26 / flight-planned mile [be sure to convert from nm to sm]; then add landing fees, parking fees, etc.); not to exceed the cost of government ticket(s). Whether or not you can get the whole mileage amount boils down to how expensive the government fare is (helps if you're in a non-city-pair location going to another) coupled with how many official travelers you have and how far you're going. Whether or not you "cover" your expenses depends on those same points, plus how expensive the plane is that you're using.

That said, if you enjoy GA flying, it's a nice way to subsidize the costs, even if you end up with some out-of-pocket expenses. Free (or cheap) cross country? Sign me up! I do this as often as possible. No reason your boss shouldn't support--worst-case, it costs him the same amount of money; more often, I end up saving money (by virtue of hitting the mileage limit before the gov't cost limit).

[Karl Hungus]

Like everyone else has said, keep pushing for that pilot slot. The AD boards down the road won't be any easier, but if you work hard there's always a chance. Or you could be really smart, turn down your AD commission, and get picked up by a Guard or Reserve unit. Then you could fly as a civilian instructor at some FBO to your heart's content, while also flying for uncle same at the same time. Point is, you've still got options, work hard and you can make it happen. As for using a commissioning loan to buy a 180, I'd be hesitant on that one. Like it says in the Bible, if it flies, floats, or ######s, it's cheaper to rent than own. Consider putting that money into mutual funds or something. Then again, if flying really is your passion, who am I to tell you not to do it... you only live once. Good luck!

[Soon To Be E6B]

Why the Cherokee 180?

Because I don't have the time/money to build an RV-7. A Pitts or Cub would be fun, but I'm looking for something sub $30k that I can use to build time and travel with when I'm not busy CSO'n. Any suggestions?

To the OP: Since it sounds like you're in AFROTC, take what they've given you and put in your 4 years. If you don't get picked up on an AD board you could try the guard/reserve route after your ADSC is up (assuming you'd still be under the age limit).

[Whitman]

more often, I end up saving money (by virtue of hitting the mileage limit before the gov't cost limit).

What's the difference with gov't cost limit vs mileage limit? I'm assuming the mileage limit is just the cost of the gov't airline ticket Say the gov't airline ticket costs $900, you will only get $900 or less for flying a GA airplane right, regardless of any extra taxi, tie down, or misc expenses, right?

[spudsmac]

Thanks for all the great info! I'm going to keep trying to get to UPT till I get too old. I should have 3 chances for AD boards before I reach the age limit. I want to try airfield ops so that I can get ATC experience in case I want to go FAA ATC after the AF.

Anyways, good info on the clubs. I might try to get involved at the NAS Jax club if they have good prices before I go AD. Hopefully wherever I'm stationed has a club, and if not a local flight school.

[HiFlyer]

What's the difference with gov't cost limit vs mileage limit? I'm assuming the mileage limit is just the cost of the gov't airline ticket Say the gov't airline ticket costs $900, you will only get $900 or less for flying a GA airplane right, regardless of any extra taxi, tie down, or misc expenses, right?

Yes. They won't pay anymore for transportation costs than $900, but will pay less if that's all you can substantiate (ie., aircraft rental, fuel, parking, etc. wind up at $700, thats all you'll get for transportation).

[tac airlifter]

Here's some Aeroclub facts:

-AFI 34-217 is a broad-brush description of what Aeroclubs are. Note that many Air Force safety and maintainance regs also apply to Aeroclubs.

-AFMAN 34-232 is the governing document for Aeroclubs and is much more detailed than AFI 34-217.

-At least at my Aeroclub, CFIs are not NAF employees like the club manager and chief pilot are. Instead, they're private contractors.

-Aeroclubs are required to be part 141 schools

-You can use Tuition Assitance to cover any Aeroclub ground school and the Montgomery GI Bill (but NOT post 9/11) to partially pay for training beyond your PPL.

-You can use an Aeroclub aircraft for TDY travel. It is sometimes more beneficial for the government to have you and a buddy drop you off and pick you up TDY in a GA airplane than it is for the government to pay SATO for our rediculous full-fare fully refundable airline tickets.

Slight thread drift-- I heard a rumor yesterday that there is a seperate pot of $9k, seperate from your TA, that can be used for a one time certification. I haven't yet had the chance to investigate for myself, but since I'm on here anyway thought I'd ask if anyone has seen this money used for an ATP or similar advanced flight certification?

I should have free time next week and if an answer isn't posted I'll have one from my education office for everyone else.

[Jughead]

Yes. They won't pay anymore for transportation costs than $900, but will pay less if that's all you can substantiate (ie., aircraft rental, fuel, parking, etc. wind up at $700, thats all you'll get for transportation).

Whit: what HiFlyer said. Also (if I'm reading your question correctly), keep in mind that the "mileage" limit is simply miles x rate (just like for a POV). Say you've got a 200 mile (flight planned statute mile) trip; that's 400 miles r/t x $1.26 / mi = $504 claimable. Add in all the extra expenses like tie down, say it comes to $550. Now compare that amount to the government ticket--the lower amount is what's paid. Say it's a $400 govt ticket--you get the gov't cost limit, $400. Now let's say you have 2 official travelers--now the govt cost limit is $800, so you get the full $550 (what I loosely called the "mileage limit"). The "saving money" I referred to was the unit's TDY funds--in the second case above, it would cost the unit $550 to fly two of us TDY, vs the $800 it would have cost to fly commercially. Everyone wins. My commander loved it that I could routinely get three travelers TDY for a bit more than the cost of one; my fellow travellers loved it as a (generally) new experience--I've given more than one "dollar ride" to my TDY compadres; and I loved it that I could fly cross country for free (more or less), the convenience of flying direct, and simply the enjoyment of flying (the main reason I fly GA to begin with).

I deliberately left the taxi cost you mentioned out of the previous paragraph. Claim the taxi fare separately, you'll get fully reimbursed for it without making it part of the constructed cost calculation.

Have fun!

Edited February 26, 2010 by Jughead

[jango220]

Anyways, good info on the clubs. I might try to get involved at the NAS Jax club if they have good prices before I go AD. Hopefully wherever I'm stationed has a club, and if not a local flight school.

Dude, Navy flying clubs are where it's at. I was a member of NAS Willow Grove's flying club when I was in college, and it was some of the best flying ever. Navy clubs are not always 141 schools like all the AF clubs are, they are a true flying club. However, from a brief perusal of the NAS Jax club's website, they do appear to be. And almost all of them usually have a T-34 or two, and it is absolutely worth it to get checked out in one.

Anyone stationed in the DC area have any info on the Fort Meade Flying Activity (what Army MWR apparently calls flying clubs)? I have a couple friends stationed up there who are thinking about joining.

[zrooster99]

I have a unique perspective on the subject. I got my PPL at the Barksdale Aero club (now defunct)...my CFI during that time was a Transportation Lt (now it would be LRO) at the same base. So yes, aero clubs have been known to hire AD officers as CFIs. I imagine you could get on with a FBO near your base if they don't have an aero club. I also eventually got a pilot slot through the AD board, so as others on here have said, don't quit trying. If you want any more details, feel free to PM me.

If you do buy, consider 1-2 solid partners. Why the Cherokee 180?

Concur. I own two, a 310 and a Piper Tripacer with 2 and 3 solid partners respectivly. Good partners definitely make it affordable. If one of your partners is an A&P, that helps a lot too.

Edited February 26, 2010 by zrooster99