Predator Follow-on

[Rifleman96]

Just how busy are they? Thx

For all active duty UAV, holidays do not exist. Very little office work time, that can be good or bad. Cannon, 12hr shifts. Creech, 8hr shifts (correct me if I'm wrong). Very difficult to plan leave. You can reserve leave a year out but still won't know if you are getting it until one week prior. You can probably do a 3 yr assignment and only deploy one time.

Does that mean Creech and Cannon are going away or is the AF adding to those locations?

What is the deployment/TDY tempo like for those flying RPA's from Creech/Cannon?

Adding another location. It is a step up from the other two.

You can get away with just one or two deployments in 3 - 4 yr period.

[drumkitwes]

19th AF/CC was at IFS today and still promised a return to a manned AC for those who got one out of UPT. FYI

[Guest GonnaFlyfoLife]

Just curious, Is the rotation at Cannon and Creech 5 days of work and 3 days off? Also at Creech do the shifts go 8am-4pm, 4pm - 12am, 12am - 8am and then rotate every month. I can't remember where I heard this from so I'm just trying to verify it.

One other question, Do UAV pilots ever go TDY? If so where?

Edited April 27, 2010 by GonnaFlyfoLife

[Hacker]

This quote has a lot of logical problems.

Well, you can choose to shoot the quote full of logic or take it at face value. I didn't come up with it.

Here's more from someone else who is an experienced fighter guy and RPA guy:

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/military/48614-drone-pilots-gaining-influence-usaf.html#post771512

They are all just starting a CMR program that is about 6 times longer than previous, and requires increased supervision after CMR. All told, they will require one on one supervision for over 6 months. They will also have to be relieved if the situation starts going dynamic - so they will still need a qualified body on hands at all times. Not much of a proper relief of manpower. The reporter also did not write that the training evals from these guys courses stated that their BEST guy was worse than anyone previously seen in the history of the RTU - the evals did say that by the way.

For those that understand, what sets aviators apart from most is decision-making and judgment. Pilots make more decisions per day, the decisions are usually more critical in nature, and the timeframe for action is less than most people all day. That is gained in experience. UPT grads don't have it after even 1+ year of training. What is critical when supporting troops on the ground and deciding if/when to employ air-surface ordnance is decision-making and judgment. Beta candidates won't have it after 1+ year of training. In combat, when you are the one on the ground, watching the bombs fly home is not the "safer course of action". To the squadron commanders with these Beta guys, the safer course of action IS having them take their bombs home. In combat, when you are the one on the ground, the timeline should be driven by your situation. If you have these guys overhead, the timeline will be driven by how fast they can find a qualified body to take the Beta's place and how fast the new guy can get brought up to speed.

[Radio]

Well, you can choose to shoot the quote full of logic or take it at face value. I didn't come up with it.

Here's more from someone else who is an experienced fighter guy and RPA guy:

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/military/48614-drone-pilots-gaining-influence-usaf.html#post771512

The guy you are quoting (“Living In MEM”), is out of date. I know Capt Petrizzo and by the time “Living In MEM” posted this statement, Petrizzo had finished CMR training and had flown without one-on-one supervision for months. There haven’t been any incidences of beta pilots having any rash of errors that wouldn’t be typical for guys right out of UPT or guys coming from a non-CAS background.

I agree that pilots with fighter backgrounds bring a lot more to the RPA community than Betas or UPT grads. If every RPA driver was a former A-10 or F-16 guy, we would be providing clearly improved service to ground forces.

On the other hand, how hard is it to precisely execute a HF shot on a hill? (The shot from the article Living in MEM references.) Or even taking out the machine gun nest with danger close? Both shots sounded simple for the Pred, almost regardless of the quality of the pilot. Betas have demonstrated to SEFEs they can do ISR, BSA, and CAS…almost 100% with a Q1 no downgrade or Q1 with Commendables on their checkrides. Coordinating a 10+ aircraft stack over a pitched battle is not something betas can do yet and is not the FTU grad standard.

What does the Army prefer? 20 Orbits fully manned with fighter pilots or 50 Orbits manned by crews that can perform ISR, BSA and CAS? The answer was clear when they started training NCOs and arming their own RPAs. Have there been a lot of complaints within the Army about how their own RPAs suck compared to ours?

[Guest]

I am currently a Phase III IP, and my Squadron Commander has said, in no uncertain terms, that "the minimum performance standard is a student who will be successful as a BUFF copilot."

So is that a high or low standard?

[Guest]

Betas have demonstrated to SEFEs they can do ISR, BSA, and CAS…almost 100% with a Q1 no downgrade or Q1 with Commendables on their checkrides.

Good, then I would suggest going the Beta route 100%. Let pilots fly inside the airplanes and use these people to fly the drones.

Coordinating a 10+ aircraft stack over a pitched battle is not something betas can do yet and is not the FTU grad standard.

Nor should it be. Air Strike Control should be managed by a living being with eyes on the friendlies, the targets and the attacking aircraft...at least until we can be sure all three of those things can be 100% digitized and put on the net.

Once that happens all bets are off and I could run airstikes from my kid's X-box.

[Hacker]

So is that a high or low standard?

IMHO, that is a low standard -- I believe that every T-38 track graduate should be capable of graduating IFF (a higher performance/capability standard), but it isn't up to me.

The statement, however, was in response to the assertion that in Phase III the standards were being lowered for dudes who would end up in an RPA -- a statement which is untrue in my experience.

[Magellan]

a statement which is untrue in my experience.

Is that true across the street though?

[BADFNZ]

Is that true across the street though?

I'd say no, since there was a dude in T-1s that went DNIF right before his Mission Fam check, so they let him do it in the sim. Supposedly this dude had struggled throughout, so the writing was on the wall. Think he knew what was up when they said "Oh don't worry about flying your final check, you can do it in a sim". Yeah, he got a UAV (UAS, RPA, HPV, whatever they're calling it this week).

Edited April 28, 2010 by BADFNZ

[Majestik Møøse]

I'd say no, since there was a dude in T-1s that went DNIF right before his Mission Fam check, so they let him do it in the sim. Supposedly this dude had struggled throughout, so the writing was on the wall. Think he knew what was up when they said "Oh don't worry about flying your final check, you can do it in a sim". Yeah, he got a UAV (UAS, RPA, HPV, whatever they're calling it this week).

HPV, I like that one! Because once you get it you can't get rid of it, or, um, uh, so I'm told...

[dream big]

I don't think this has been discussed before, do UAV/UAS/RPA/HPV pilots go through SERE?

[magnetfreezer]

I don't think this has been discussed before, do UAV/UAS/RPA/HPV pilots go through SERE?

There's an app for that:

[Guest Falco]

Bwahahaha, huzah!

[Snuggie]

I don't think this has been discussed before, do UAV/UAS/RPA/HPV pilots go through SERE?

No

[Boxhead]

No

That is being fixed as we speak...for us at least, can't speak for Creech.

[Jaded]

That is being fixed as we speak...for us at least, can't speak for Creech.

Fixed? Not throwing spears, but what risk of capture does an RPA operator have?

[ClearedHot]

I don't think this has been discussed before, do UAV/UAS/RPA/HPV pilots go through SERE?

They would be better served to send them to Doyle Brunson's Poker Boot Camp.

[Guest]

Fixed? Not throwing spears, but what risk of capture does an RPA operator have?

No shit. What a waste of time and money.

[Whitman]

Fixed? Not throwing spears, but what risk of capture does an RPA operator have?

Ever heard of Launch and Recovery? Not a pred guy but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[Jughead]

Ever heard of Launch and Recovery? Not a pred guy but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Perhaps you need to upgrade your room--I'm pretty sure SERE is an aircrew requirement due to the risk of crash/forced landing/shot down/ejection in unfriendly territory, and NOT something that every deployer does. Ask the next shoeclerk who corrects your wear of the reflective belt if they can spell "SERE"....

[Guest]

Ever heard of Launch and Recovery? Not a pred guy but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I have. They don't need fucking SERE to do that. Your SA is too fucking low for a Holiday Inn to help.

Maybe you should get downrange one fucking time before you pop off with a comment like that.

STFU.

YAAFDA.

[Gravedigger]

I don't know anything about unmanned crap or SERE, however, the new Evasion and Conduct After Capture (ECAC) course being taught to all non-rated CGO types before or after ASBC might be the option they are "fixing." Eventually, every non-rated Airman will attend this course which is essentially a 3 day completely worthless version of SERE. I heard that UAV operators will be included in this group.

These are just rumors for now, but it seems to make more sense than sending folks to SERE just for launch/recovery ops.

[Whitman]

Perhaps you need to upgrade your room--I'm pretty sure SERE is an aircrew requirement due to the risk of crash/forced landing/shot down/ejection in unfriendly territory, and NOT something that every deployer does. Ask the next shoeclerk who corrects your wear of the reflective belt if they can spell "SERE"....

Copy, need more priority club points. Now what's this SA that you guys are talking about?

[Boxhead]

Yep, kinda standard replies to the news, I don't expect people to get it, and I don't really care, we will be doing some interesting things here soon where SERE (well, not so much the "Survival and evasion" part, but the beatings parts etc...are very appropriate.

Glad to see some things never change on here. Crusty old dudes thinking they know their shit...about everything...and they do, sometimes, but sometimes, well, sometimes they are just crusty old dudes.