The Bronze Star

[Guest TheBull]

On subject, there was some growing pains with the Combat Action Medal when it first came out. My cousin is a Tech in EOD, multiple tours in OEF and OIF, been shot at - shot back, ect. However, the AF didn't want to retroactively award the combat service medal to him or other members of his unit. (although it's retroactive to Sept 11, 2001) I think it had something to do with their being attached to the Army at the time. In the end he got it, but it took the better part of a year. His biggest complaint was that his folks didn't get the medal, but were outside the wire fighting, yet folks inside the wire were getting the AFCAM because they manned a "fighting position" while getting mortared.

In the end it was all a moot point. While he did end up getting his retroactive medal approved, he deployed yet again and got another AFCAM.

Personally, you can bash your head against the wall all day thinking about this kinda stuff, but in the end it's not really worth it. Undeserving people will get things, while others who really do won't. Story of life.

Yeah - the AFCAM has been atrociously handled. Heard more stories that I ever though possible of dudes convoying and getting hit, then getting their medals denied for what amounts to little more than unspoken standards of documentation needed. In many cases they had their Army unit unofficially present Combat Action Badges with their ARCOMs at their RIP/TOA while the Air Force gave them nothing while trying to get them home a day early so that they wouldn't get short tour credit

BSMs are getting awarded like crazy - but when you look back to see how the Bronze Star came to be it's not too out of place. The Bronze Star came around as the Infantryman's Air Medal and was retroactively awarded in 1947 to anyone that received a Combat Infantry/Medical Badge in WWII. So while there are undeserving people taking home some of these from cush rear bases, let's not lose perspective. After all, one of the prime criteria for the policy was the poor quality of life the men lived on the front lines.

Personally I worked with a guy who was put in for a BSM by his ship Captain for his work landing the Marines during Kosovo - end result was his BSM was turned down by higher-ups, who then turned around and submitted one for his ship's Captain who hadn't put one in himself. If someone higher up wants one of their people to take home a BSM, it'll happen. Thus we see the BSM as the default leadership end of deployment decoration.

While I don't think he cared too much, it would have been a nice gesture to just approve the MSM automatically given all he'd done. Instead it was if the staff said "we don't care what he actually did, the bottom line is he's a Captain, which means he gets decoration ______."

Yeah - the best is when CJ1 kicks the dec back based on the rank - then in the same email says that the writeup is inappropriate for that medal and you need to water it down...

[SocialD]

To not do so WILL lead to your subordinates getting the shaft when efficient paper-pushers DO get medals for the same or even lesser effort/bravery. Those not properly recognized for their efforts will unnecessarily fall behind their peers.

Therein lies the problem. Just handing out medals because other people are getting them isn't the answer. Same reason OPR's don't mean squat, it's more about how well someone can make their accomplishments sound rather than what they actually did.

Just because they don't want them, doesn't mean they haven't earned them.

I would be willing to bet that, none of those Medal of Honor recipients set out to do something to receive that medal. They were just ordinary dudes put in an extraordinary situation and they rose to the occasion. Most would probably say they were scared death and fighting to live another day. They wear it as a sign of respect to all his bros who did not make it home. The dudes who put in for their own medals are trying to further their own careers.

"Tiger, one day you will come to a fork in the road and you’re going to have to make a decision about which direction you want to go. If you go that way you can be somebody. You will have to make compromises and you will have to turn your back on your friends. But you will be a member of the club and you will get promoted and you will get good assignments. Or you can go that way and you can do something- something for your country and for your Air Force and for yourself. If you decide you want to do something, you may not get promoted and you may not get the good assignments and you certainly will not be a favorite of your superiors. But you won’t have to compromise yourself. You will be true to your friends and to yourself. And your work might make a difference. To be somebody or to do something. In life there is often a roll call. That’s when you will have to make a decision. To be or to do? Which way will you go?

"

— John Boyd

[BQZip01]

Therein lies the problem. Just handing out medals because other people are getting them isn't the answer. Same reason OPR's don't mean squat, it's more about how well someone can make their accomplishments sound rather than what they actually did.

That is another argument altogether, IMHO. I agree we have medal/OPR inflation, but what should actually be done about it? If we stop pushing some of the less deserving medals and only push for the top few, the number of shoeclerks will multiply and will further cement the process. Our best option at this time is to keep pushing our good folks forward so that some day we can finally get someone in a place of authority who can fix this $#!T.

I would be willing to bet that, none of those Medal of Honor recipients set out to do something to receive that medal. They were just ordinary dudes put in an extraordinary situation and they rose to the occasion. Most would probably say they were scared death and fighting to live another day. They wear it as a sign of respect to all his bros who did not make it home.

Couldn't agree more. I was watching Dogfights and a MoH recipient stated, "We don't wear these for us. We wear it for those who can't". My point is that we should strive for those types of actions, not for the sake of getting a medal, but because it's the right thing to do under extremely difficult circumstances.

The dudes who put in for their own medals are trying to further their own careers.

That's not always a bad thing. For example, if you have piss-poor leadership, you might have to put in your own medal. In my first tour as an officer, I got put in for a commendation medal, but, for whatever reason, it got lost (this is no slam on anyone as I have no IDEA what happened to it; it's just missing). I'm still in the process of tracking it down and it was 3+ years ago. When I go up for my Major's board in a few short years, it isn't going to be helpful to have a 3 year block with no end-of-tour ribbon. With promotion rates what they are, it wouldn't surprise me that it won't matter too much, but every little bit helps.

One more: my dad was an O-6 and a Vice Wing Commander. When he arrived at his unit, there was a Captain who was twice passed over for Major. He went and talked to my dad about the situation. It turns out his prior boss was incompetent. He'd written up OPRs and PRFs that looked like crap (lots of white space, very poor writing). For whatever reason, prior leadership signed off on these. When it came time for promotions, he obviously was not prepared for success. My dad re-evaluated his leadership potential and the next time the promotion board came around, he convinced the Wing Commander to put him on his Definitely Promote (DP) list and the guy was properly promoted as he should have been all along.

[pawnman]

I feel the same about the standard "PCS medals". If the guy was doing good enough work to earn a medal, why wait until he PCSs to give it to him? And if his work doesn't merit a medal, why are we giving him one just because he's leaving the base?

[Guest Jack Tripper]

And if his work doesn't merit a medal, why are we giving him one just because he's leaving the base?

I think you answered your own question.

[tac airlifter]

Have subsequent operations been approved by the chief of staff?

As of now, HOA and OEF-P both count as seperate operations. If Kosovo is still a designated combat zone it would count as well, although I don't know if it is. And obviously, anything can happen in the future.

The AFCAM has been an embarassment. I was told by the first 0-6 in my chain of command that LR would not authorize the awarding of any AFCAMs unless someone higher dictated we should. Meaning, I tried to submit my guys for one after a 3-shot one night, and was told that my home unit wouldn't even foward the package to the board unless we did something worthy of a DFC in which case we'd be told we also qualified for the AFCAM. By the way, same 0-6 had a BSM herself for managing operation at the Deid.

Life isn't fair. Medals are not the measure of any of us; but as a leader I wish I could ensure the 19 year old airmen doing his job at war while his peers are smoking pot and living at home is recognized accordingly. I have philosophically accepted the injustices of our awards system, but I don't want to rain on the idealistic kids who still attach worth to ribbons.

[Guest Alarm Red]

As of now, HOA and OEF-P both count as seperate operations. If Kosovo is still a designated combat zone it would count as well, although I don't know if it is. And obviously, anything can happen in the future.

HOA and the PI are both still OEF.

The AFCAM has been an embarassment. I was told by the first 0-6 in my chain of command that LR would not authorize the awarding of any AFCAMs unless someone higher dictated we should. Meaning, I tried to submit my guys for one after a 3-shot one night, and was told that my home unit wouldn't even foward the package to the board unless we did something worthy of a DFC in which case we'd be told we also qualified for the AFCAM. By the way, same 0-6 had a BSM herself for managing operation at the Deid.

I'm not really heartbroken that it is as discriminating as it is to get an AFCAM approved. It was created since there is no CAB equivelant for the battlefield airman, and while eligible, airmen can't wear the CAB when not aligned with an army unit.

With the exception of the Pedros I doubt there are many aircrew that find themselves, as the instructions dictate, in grave danger from hostile fire. Not sure a manually aimed 12.7mm, regardless of your MDS, should ever qualify.

[tac airlifter]

HOA and the PI are both still OEF.

With the exception of the Pedros I doubt there are many aircrew that find themselves, as the instructions dictate, in grave danger from hostile fire. Not sure a manually aimed 12.7mm, regardless of your MDS, should ever qualify.

Are you sure about that first part? You may want an update on HOA. As for the second part, how much experience do you have with non-CAF airframes and missions to back up that assertion? If you are in the WEZ for 12.7mm or anything guided and going 110 kts, it can ruin your day.

[magnetfreezer]

And if his work doesn't merit a medal, why are we giving him one just because he's leaving the base?

Same reason as OPR/EPR inflation - you can be the first guy to try and correct the system, but then you'll put all your people at a disadvantage at the promotion boards when they see a bunch of 3 year tours with no medal. To fix it the AF would probably have to take away PCS entirely as an allowable justification which would at least force supervisors to come up with an achievement rationale for awarding the memo instead of just stitching random bullets from the last few OPRs.

[60 driver]

I call Bullshit on this one. I can think of every single one of the Medal of Honor recipients and those medals are mere tokens of gratitude on behalf of a grateful nation. If you are a leader and you see something that is deserving of a medal, it is incumbent upon you to push for that public recognition for that individual/unit. To not do so WILL lead to your subordinates getting the shaft when efficient paper-pushers DO get medals for the same or even lesser effort/bravery. Those not properly recognized for their efforts will unnecessarily fall behind their peers.

Just because they don't want them, doesn't mean they haven't earned them.

Those that don't deserve them can certainly strive for the ideals that result in those kinds medals; I know I do. I do not strive for those hunks of ribbon and metal (For any of those that are meaningful to me, I would likely have to be in one hell of a mess and I certainly don't want things screwed up that much; I mean think of it: when did anyone get a MoH when things were running smoothly and we were completely kicking butt? I'd much rather decimate the enemy and get a friggin' achievement medal with a V... and that would only be because a single mortar crossed the fenceline by a few inches).

You should really do some research on who you're rebutting before you open your yap.

That said, I'm interested in your opinion on every single MOH recipient and why it's relevant to Rainman's point.

[Hacker]

With the exception of the Pedros I doubt there are many aircrew that find themselves, as the instructions dictate, in grave danger from hostile fire. Not sure a manually aimed 12.7mm, regardless of your MDS, should ever qualify.

Hopefully you are talking only specifically about OEF and post-2003 OIF.

[afnav]

If an AWACS guy has a lot of Air Medals for flying three miles over Iraq vs. a fighter/bomber guy flying into a MEZ and/or releasing ordnance, you could award the AFCAM as a discriminator. An airlift guy going into a hot LZ/DZ would certainly earn it, also.

[Seriously]

You should really do some research on who you're rebutting before you open your yap.

That said, I'm interested in your opinion on every single MOH recipient and why it's relevant to Rainman's point.

So... his disagreement with Rainman offends you?

[60 driver]

So... his disagreement with Rainman offends you?

Let's get straight to your point. What is it?

[BQZip01]

Life isn't fair. Medals are not the measure of any of us; but as a leader I wish I could ensure the 19 year old airmen doing his job at war while his peers are smoking pot and living at home is recognized accordingly. I have philosophically accepted the injustices of our awards system, but I don't want to rain on the idealistic kids who still attach worth to ribbons.

2

You should really do some research on who you're rebutting before you open your yap.

That said, I'm interested in your opinion on every single MOH recipient and why it's relevant to Rainman's point.

I consider all my opinions, but the underlying opinions don't change based upon who I'm saying them to.

He said "Medals are not the measure of a man" and I disagree. Bestowing the highest honor a nation can is indeed a good measure of a man: his actions are the best we have to offer and the ideals behind their actions are worth emulating.

Let's get straight to your point. What is it?

I think he wants a yes or no answer

[HercDude]

Holy shit. I was 100% expecting a link to a Duffel Blog article.

[Tank]

WTF?!?

I know guys who were denied the Bronze Star for actions in Fallujah 2004 and now this crap?

Edited March 11, 2013 by Tank

[10percenttruth]

Unfukkingbelievable.

[afnav]

Anyone trotting around with a Bronze Star WITHOUT an AFCAM speaks volumes, at least if it's a recent recipient.

[HU&W]

Certainly seems to invalidate the argument that the bronze star should rank above the DWM.

[DEVIL]

[RescueRandy]

I think this was brought up in another thread, but the Bronze Star (BS) and BS with Valor are two very different medals. I also think we can all agree that the awards/decs system in the AF (and other services) is F'ed.

As a deployed LtCol, this chaplain's BS was nearly automatic. It takes no heroism to rate a bronze star; just an O-5 who spends at least six months in a deployed location and does a satisfactory job. Simple as that.

While it's ridiculous, we all just have to know the difference when we see a BS and/or a BS w/V. If they're a SNCO or O-5+ (without V) then they got an "atta boy" for doing a decent job downrange. If they are junior to that, then they did a kick-ass job. And anybody with a V device on their bronze star deserves (at least) free beer from me. (Assuming their actions merited the BS w/V.)

Anyone trotting around with a Bronze Star WITHOUT an AFCAM speaks volumes, at least if it's a recent recipient.

As for this, the "V" device implies that the recipient's act (for which the medal was awarded) was under hostile fire. The BS alone implies that it was for desk work only. I would think that if you're in the AF and getting a BS w/V, then you're probably also getting an AFCAM (if you don't already have one). I'm sure that's not 100% always the case.

[M2]

A Bronze Star (no 'V' device) is a MSM given in a "combat" zone...

[pcola]

While it's ridiculous, we all just have to know the difference when we see a BS and/or a BS w/V. If they're a SNCO or O-5+ (without V) then they got an "atta boy" for doing a decent job downrange. If they are junior to that, then they did a kick-ass job. And anybody with a V device on their bronze star deserves (at least) free beer from me. (Assuming their actions merited the BS w/V.)

This. Standard deployment dec for E8/9, O5/6. The V is the distinction of note.

[HerkFE]

If they're a SNCO or O-5+ (without V) then they got an "atta boy" for doing a decent job downrange. If they are junior to that, then they did a kick-ass job. And anybody with a V device on their bronze star deserves (at least) free beer from me. (Assuming their actions merited the BS w/V.)

Gotta disagree with you a little. I know an O-4 who got one (Tactics desk at Manas) and he kicked no ass. Kissed, yes.....Kicked, no. Wrote his own citation once and it got shot down. Re-wrote it and it got approved. SMDH