10 year commitment.

[Toro]

What are some things people volunteer for that comes with additional time (WIC etc...)?

Pretty much any training in the AF incurs an Active Duty Service Commitment (ADSC). FTU, PME, WIC.

[tac airlifter]

Pretty much any training in the AF incurs an Active Duty Service Commitment (ADSC). FTU, PME, WIC.

True but many of those run concurrent with your UPT ADSC; which I know you know. Just pointing out to the guy who asked the question that you aren't adding aditional time to the 10 years by doing PME, IP school or your masters or whatever, provided the ADSC's incurred by those items expire prior to the expiration of the 10 year ADSC.

[HeloDude]

Pretty much any training in the AF incurs an Active Duty Service Commitment (ADSC). FTU, PME, WIC.

Recently heard that after you have ten years in, you no longer receive additional ADSC's for any type of flying related training.

[Guest Crew Report]

Ask the Viper guys who got TAMIed how they feel about that.

While that does suck they're still employed, making the same amount as their Viper bros. Do they have the same job satisfaction? Probably not, but it could be worse. There are people in the AF who serve proudly and will never get the chance to even wear Pilot wings due to some kind of DQ.

Don't think of it as a commitment...think of it as job security in a terrible economic and work environment.

:beer:

I just reenlisted today for another five years and for the first was given a bonus.

[Right Seat Driver]

I assume pred guys incur the same commitment as "real airplane" pilots? Any intel about what year groups are under/overmanned? I'm an 06 guy, and it was like running up Omaha beach just to not get kicked out of ROTC since my year group was in the middle of the last round of "force shaping". Guys were getting the boot for speeding tickets and lifting the wrong cheek to fart. I can't imagine 04-07 year groups being that overmanned seeing how hard the AF tried to thin our herd prior to commissioning.

I'm an 07 guy and it was pretty much the same for my year group. It all started sophomore year, in the fall semester the AF was willing to finish paying out scholarships and stipends for the remainder of the year if people voluntarily left ROTC. Most didn't. Dudes weren't getting Field Training slots, a lot of guys were booted from FT. Starting about half-way through my junior year they were offering programs to commission directly into the Guard or Reserve. The only catch was you had to find a unit to hire you and if I remember right dudes who were picked up for rated slots were exempt. I am not sure if Big Blue was able to reduce enough or not.

[Hacker]

Recently heard that after you have ten years in, you no longer receive additional ADSC's for any type of flying related training.

You recently heard incorrectly.

[LUGNUT]

Pretty much any formal training will give you an ADSC. If they spend the money to train you, they are going to get their money’s worth. In my case I have 22 yrs in and headed off to the Reaper - that will give me a 36 month ADSC after training is complete (25 total). The really crazy thing is for a lot of formal schools even if you don't complete, get washed out, or some admin snafu where you don't meet qualifications and get kicked out half way through (don’t ask me how I know), etc you still end up with the ADSC (I think that is to keep guys from showing up and quitting or retiring half way through). Weapon’s school, PCS moves, even crap like using Tuition Assistance at the Ed center will incur an ADSC. There are a ton of scams to keep their hooks in you.

On a side note, you will also notice how the 10 yr commitment affected this year’s pilot bonus. It has changed to guys with less than 15 years total service time. Basically, you will get your first bonus at 11 years, then at 16 years they figure who the hell will get out so…no bonus for you!

[tundra AC]

Recently heard that after you have ten years in, you no longer receive additional ADSC's for any type of flying related training.

Sort of...

Check out AFI 36-2107..."All pilots, navigators, and air battle managers who began aviation service after 30 September 1997 will not incur any additional Advanced Flying Training (AFT)/Instructor Qualification ADSCs which extend beyond 10 years of continuous or cumulative rated service. Rated service begins at the completion of training and awarding of wings for the rated specialty. They will still incur Permanent Change of Station (PCS), Professional Military Education (PME), and other non-AFT related ADSCs."

The fine print says the rule applies mostly to instructor and requal courses. The formal training office tacked on 3 years to my committment for C17 requal, even though it took me past 10. Went direct to AFPC and got it deleted.

Doesn't matter for most of us because of the bonus. But if you're still on the fence, it might be nice to know.

[WheelsOff]

I'm an 07 guy and it was pretty much the same for my year group. It all started sophomore year, in the fall semester the AF was willing to finish paying out scholarships and stipends for the remainder of the year if people voluntarily left ROTC. Most didn't. Dudes weren't getting Field Training slots, a lot of guys were booted from FT. Starting about half-way through my junior year they were offering programs to commission directly into the Guard or Reserve. The only catch was you had to find a unit to hire you and if I remember right dudes who were picked up for rated slots were exempt. I am not sure if Big Blue was able to reduce enough or not.

Any idea of what the 08-10 year groups look like in comparison? (Specifically '10)

[Magellan]

Any idea of what the 08-10 year groups look like in comparison? (Specifically '10)

So for the guys about to graduate in 6 to 9 weeks, and enter active duty 6 to 9 months after that?

You should be fine for the foreseeable future. That said if you are a pilot you should be golden for those 10 years, the only deal is like some guys previously mentioned they are being cheap with the bonus in comparison to the guys that didn't have the 10 year commitment, because they figure us hanging around for the retirement is enough of a carrot to keep us in.

For non-rated officers in that year group who knows where the Air Force will be manning wise in 4-6 years when everyone's commitments are up. That said every single one of us is here at the convenience of the Air Force, and don't ever forget that they can tell us all, "Thanks for playing and where would you like your household goods shipped to?" tomorrow.

[HeloDude]

Sort of...

Check out AFI 36-2107..."All pilots, navigators, and air battle managers who began aviation service after 30 September 1997 will not incur any additional Advanced Flying Training (AFT)/Instructor Qualification ADSCs which extend beyond 10 years of continuous or cumulative rated service. Rated service begins at the completion of training and awarding of wings for the rated specialty. They will still incur Permanent Change of Station (PCS), Professional Military Education (PME), and other non-AFT related ADSCs."

The fine print says the rule applies mostly to instructor and requal courses. The formal training office tacked on 3 years to my committment for C17 requal, even though it took me past 10. Went direct to AFPC and got it deleted.

Doesn't matter for most of us because of the bonus. But if you're still on the fence, it might be nice to know.

Take that Hacker! Just kidding…but seriously.

[Ravens52]

10 additional years or 10 years initially in the Air Force are 10 great years of job security, amazing opportunities and you get to have one of the coolest jobs around... In today's world people who do not want to do 20 I think are crazy, granted military life can be taxing, but the benefits/job enjoyment far outway the sacrifices.

[EvilEagle]

10 additional years or 10 years initially in the Air Force are 10 great years of job security, amazing opportunities and you get to have one of the coolest jobs around... In today's world people who do not want to do 20 I think are crazy, granted military life can be taxing, but the benefits/job enjoyment far outway the sacrifices.

And how long have you been on Active Duty to know enough to judge those getting out after their 10? If you're closing in on your first 10 years in the military, you are entitled to that opinion, if not, STFU.

I'm about 11 in and I know people getting out at 16, it all depends on the fit for the family and the USAF. Big Blue isn't taking care of it's people like it used to, I can't blame guys for getting out.

[Guest Rubber_Side_Down]

And how long have you been on Active Duty to know enough to judge those getting out after their 10? If you're closing in on your first 10 years in the military, you are entitled to that opinion, if not, STFU.

I'm about 11 in and I know people getting out at 16, it all depends on the fit for the family and the USAF. Big Blue isn't taking care of it's people like it used to, I can't blame guys for getting out.

2.

I was just like Ravens52 until about my 6th year in. Now, I see why dudes get out at the 14-16 year point. No amount of compensation is worth some of the things you stand to lose...like your marriage. It takes balls to leave that late in the game. You know it's really bad when guys are going that route.

[SuperWSO]

2.

I was just like Ravens52 until about my 6th year in. Now, I see why dudes get out at the 14-16 year point. No amount of compensation is worth some of the things you stand to lose...like your marriage. It takes balls to leave that late in the game. You know it's really bad when guys are going that route.

I am well past 10. I have to say I really don't understand the urge to get out when you are 4/5ths of the way to getting paid for the rest of your life. If it comes down to your marriage or your career, I can respect that decision, but I will say that the 4 or 5 times I've heard about that ultimatum, the dude gets out and then the divorce happens 6 months later. Honestly, unless Big Blue hands me a pocket knife and tells me to start clearing mine fields, I can't think of a reason to quit that close to the finish line. Not even if the Airlines needed me to sit behind the pilot and ask if we are over St Paul yet.

[tac airlifter]

Not even if the Airlines needed me to sit behind the pilot and ask if we are over St Paul yet.

Zing! Well played.

[Ravens52]

Ravens52, let me guess... you have less than one year in.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I appreciate the replies:

Its been 5 years. Sorry, for posting a rainbows and kittens reply, but I really do feel that doing 20 is worth it. However, I have seen and experienced the down side to what you guys have mentioned. I myself and I know many people who have had relationship and marital problems, etc due to the job, ops tempo, and lifestyle. In my short 5 years I have seen many changes and tons of BS. I hear of the good ol days from when the CSAF was the Wg/CC at Hurbie. But I get it, the Big Blue has many issues... but at this point they aren't strong enough to get me to call knock it off after my service commitment. So maybe you are right that when I get to my 16 year point that I will want to reconsider, but if I put up with 16 years of BS, 4 more ain't too bad. It really is all situational.

I say it also depends on your career field, deployment rates, location, family, etc. My bad for not mentioning that earlier in my post. Many factors go into play to wanting or not wanting to make the AF a career. However, I see many of the same factors in people on the outside world in multiple job fields that are unhappy with their job because of the burden it can put on their family life or other aspects to their personal life. Or worse, I know of many people who had the same education as me who are struggling to find jobs that fit their skill set or knowledge level. The biggest question that I would ask is, what would you be doing on the outside world at 16 years (how are the airlines?) and do yourself a cost benefit analysis of staying v. getting out, that choice is up to you. My opinion is what is.

[nsplayr]

I'm an 07 guy and it was pretty much the same for my year group. It all started sophomore year, in the fall semester the AF was willing to finish paying out scholarships and stipends for the remainder of the year if people voluntarily left ROTC. Most didn't. Dudes weren't getting Field Training slots, a lot of guys were booted from FT. Starting about half-way through my junior year they were offering programs to commission directly into the Guard or Reserve. The only catch was you had to find a unit to hire you and if I remember right dudes who were picked up for rated slots were exempt. I am not sure if Big Blue was able to reduce enough or not.

Wow, I had a very different experience at my Det. I'm an 07 guy and we commissioned all our seniors and had people dropping out because they wanted to, not because they were forced out. The cadre were fighting to keep people in, giving make-up PT tests, etc. and looking for any reason to keep a person in. Some of those people who did get commissioned with me did not deserve it. Same went for scholarships and FT slots early on...there wasn't a shortage of either...

[Wolf424]

Wow, I had a very different experience at my Det. I'm an 07 guy and we commissioned all our seniors and had people dropping out because they wanted to, not because they were forced out. The cadre were fighting to keep people in, giving make-up PT tests, etc. and looking for any reason to keep a person in. Some of those people who did get commissioned with me did not deserve it. Same went for scholarships and FT slots early on...there wasn't a shortage of either...

Complete opposite at my Det in 07. They were looking for ways to get people out, even letting one person out because she thought she might be a conscientious objector (she was a senior...) They kicked two people from my year out right before FT because they didn't have enough EAs for everyone...

[Guest]

And how long have you been on Active Duty to know enough to judge those getting out after their 10? If you're closing in on your first 10 years in the military, you are entitled to that opinion, if not, STFU.

I'm about 11 in and I know people getting out at 16, it all depends on the fit for the family and the USAF. Big Blue isn't taking care of it's people like it used to, I can't blame guys for getting out.

FWIW, I had no idea how much I would appreciate the benefits of a military retirement. I certainly never thought about it during the 21 years I spent on AD. Raising a family was not easy but I was lucky and have a very supporting wife. I believe my kids are better off for the experiences they had. My family was definitely ready for me to retire even though I could've stayed until the USAF kicked me out.

That said I'm not sure what Big Blue is offering people retiring today but I would say it is still probably a very good deal. Big pic, think carefully before you bail. 'Nuff said on that.

FWIW, the original bonus was used as a retention weapon, feet on the ramp unless you signed. I was furious that I HAD to sign, even though I had every intention to stay for 20. Seven years later Big Blue was flabbergasted when guys were bailing at the 14 yr point at about a 90% rate. New bonus was doubled +1 and went to 25 yrs and was not mandatory. I held for a year after my 14 yr point as I considered my options and remembered how pissed I was when I signed the original bonus. I got over it and took the money. It felt sleazy since I intended to stay anyway but I'm glad I did it.

I remember a division commander at Nellis that used to say "there is a rat in sepARATe." He was a tool.

No one should ever feel like they are letting their country down by separating. If you've done your time you are even. Period. The beauty of the USAF is you very likely trained your replacement.

[OL Patch]

I remember a division commander at Nellis that used to say "there is a rat in sepARATe." He was a tool.

That is of course absolute horses..t as Rainman states. Had a 3 button ask me over a scotch once: "Why you quitting?" My response: "General, I've served my country honorably for 20 years, I'm not quitting!" Came real close to jumping to a guard job at the 15 year point for all the reasons in previous posts. For me personally, I'm so glad I stuck it out on AD. There is quite a comfort knowing at least I have a mortgage payment + coming in every month. As Evil said, and Rainman reiterated, each of you will face points in your career when your view matures/changes and different influences affect your decisions. For those who served, no matter how long, good on ya.

retguy

[JS]

Although I have not quite been in for 10 years yet, my plan is to finish the marathon. Another thing to keep in mind is that the 10 year clock starts ticking after UPT. For me, it was almost two years by the time I was done with commissioning, casual (8 months), and then UPT. That makes my minimum commitment time about 12 years. I might think differently in a few more years, but it seems like it would make sense to finish the last 8 when I get to that point.

[Ravens52]

That is of course absolute horses..t as Rainman states. Had a 3 button ask me over a scotch once: "Why you quitting?" My response: "General, I've served my country honorably for 20 years, I'm not quitting!" Came real close to jumping to a guard job at the 15 year point for all the reasons in previous posts. For me personally, I'm so glad I stuck it out on AD. There is quite a comfort knowing at least I have a mortgage payment + coming in every month. As Evil said, and Rainman reiterated, each of you will face points in your career when your view matures/changes and different influences affect your decisions. For those who served, no matter how long, good on ya.

retguy

proud to serve happy to be here

[Guest]

Here's an alternate viewpoint. I personally don't see the retirement check as very good motivation. In fact, I see it as wasting 8 years in opportunity costs of starting another career.

Good point. I'll do the math with you if you like. The problem is, most people cannot actually do that math. Be sure to calculate all factors, to include the value of the retirement benefits (primarily the paycheck and the healthcare).

Another thing most people don't realize nor can they factor is the level they will enter the civilian pay scale if they stay and gain the leadership skills and general management experience the military will provide in those final eight years.

Some people like the job security. Me? I'd rather risk that comfort to try to move on to bigger and better things. I think a lot of people stay until retirement because they're afraid they can't do any better, and hold on to their sure thing. Not that there's anything wrong with that, or people who do that, but I would rather not spend a tenth of my life stagnating, just to collect a check.

I would have to agree with your general assumption that many people are afraid they do not have marketable skills in the civilian world. This is most common among pilots who think they only reason they would ever get out early is because the airlines are hiring. That is sad, especially because even senior captains in the airlines make shit for money compared to what is made in business.

I had no idea what real money was before I retired, primarily because I didn't give money a second thought when I was in.

If I stay in, I'm staying in because I love my job and would do it even if there was zero retirement benefits and it paid half the salary.

That is exactly the right reason to stay if you want to be happy. It is not, however, the only reason to stay.

Although I will say the guard/reserve seems like a great way to keep doing something I love without giving up outside ambitions.

The ARC ain't no puss game. You cannot run a business and be deployed all the time. The real money is running a business or in an executive leadership position in a company. You're probably going to have to go for the former if you're thinking about getting out early. If a person thinks they're going to the ARC and then make a shit ton of money as an airline guy that tells me they don't know what real money is.

Believe me, there will come a time in your life when you will be thinking about both the quality of life in retirement (real retirement) and the gameplan to get there ASAFP.

[Vertigo]

...but I would rather not spend a tenth of my life stagnating, just to collect a check.

You plan on living until you're 200?