Cyber Wings

[Kikuchiyo]

I heard they're getting silver flight suits. ;-)

[BQZip01]

They bring us the most mismanaged, cumbersome, and uninnovative network in the entire world?

I don't give a shit about wings... I don't give a shit about any info that might be on SIPR. I just know the following:

1. Air Force e-mail sucks. It is slow. A 75MB size limit is absolutely ######ing absurd. Solution: GMAIL (or contract google to design one for us). If you want a better, DOD-ified solution, see AKOs new e-mail.

2. Air Force portal sucks. It is slow and contains NO ######ING INFORMATION. Wait? It does contain information you say? Then why does the search suck?! How could it possibly take anyone more than FIVE MINUTES to find a telephone directory. What about a base map? PFPS? I can go on. It ######ing sucks. Solution: Connect a google search appliance to that bitch.

3. DOD to DOD traffic is slow. ######, intranet traffic that remains on my base is ######ing slow. They just rewired the entire building for CAT-6 and gave us machines with gigabit ethernet cards. Network traffic that stays in the confines of my base SHOULD NOT BE SLOW! Not when its 1000-Base-T. Solution: I don't know what the ###### is wrong with it...

4. Air Force computer support sucks. Try this shit on for size. AETC buys computers and they get sent to my base. Then, the COMM dudes open the computers and install the AF common desktop on them. Then the COMM dudes tell our ADPEs to pick those computers up and install them in the squadron. Here's the problem with that: The dudes SUPPORTING the systems SHOULD be on the ones installing the systems. A 11K3 (Instructor Pilot) who HAPPENS to know about computers should NOT be the one installing that computer! They haven't received ANY formal training about how to install or support that computer. Furthermore, they aren't even given any admin rights to help support it if they wanted to.

JCollins, I know you probably work hard and the bureaucracy sucks, but there is no excuse for the air force to be running a network like this. NONE! We may not be a corporate entity, but there is no reason our network cannot behave like one (fast, well-organized, and secure). The Air Force's focus should be on correcting deficiencies in our network, not offensive "cyber" capabilities or opening up social networking sites. Once our network is where it should be (as good as Google's, Apple's, or Microsoft's), then we can start working on our offensive "cyber" capabilities.

Take into account that C-130s do not fly like F-16s because they aren't designed to do so. Likewise, I imagine an offensive/defensive capability would be the SR-71 while the rest of us are stuck in Cessna 172s to do office work...

As for the rest of your rant, it shows both some common sense and a lack of knowledge on your part:

0. I too don't give a **** about whether they have wings or not. I think it is a misplaced idea, but could really care less. Everyone knows who the flyers are. However, you should care quite a bit about some info that is on SIPR. It would help to alleviate some of your ignorance.

1. Air Force e-mail does not suck and is quite secure. If you have issues with slow e-mail, it is likely a localized problem. A 75MB limit?!? Must be nice! I'm only allotted a mere 30 MB. The solution is for people to clean out their mailboxes. These are not a place for you to store everything indefinitely. Every time you log into a different computer, it has to load 75MB of e-mails into your machine. What do you think that does to network performance? While we could each chip in 50 cents and they could double your storage capacity, the basic problem would remain. The solution is to archive your e-mails in a .pst file and regularly back those up to an external drive somewhere.

2. The Air Force portal indeed sucks, but the search function is rapidly getting better (certainly not past a 60% solution, but it is significantly better than even last year)

3.

DOD to DOD traffic is slow. ######, intranet traffic that remains on my base is ######ing slow. They just rewired the entire building for CAT-6 and gave us machines with gigabit ethernet cards. Network traffic that stays in the confines of my base SHOULD NOT BE SLOW! Not when its 1000-Base-T. Solution: I don't know what the ###### is wrong with it...

Wow, an amazing lack of knowledge there. Do you have any idea why they've changed all of the desktop side of the house first? It's because of idiots like you who have no CLUE about the network architecture. Yeah, your desk units and the last 20 feet of the network are all up to that capacity, but I'll wager serious money that you will not see better service until the links to your servers, the base servers/between buildings is upgraded. If they upgraded that first, you would see no improvement until they upgraded your local systems, but as soon as they upgraded it, they would get requests from all over, "Amn Snuffy has high speed. Fix mine!!!" Instead, as money comes in for upgrades, you will see a marked improvement suddenly, but will not have any recent upgrades that you have seen=less whining from the "customer".

4. Air Force computer support sucks, no question, but they are also stretched quite thin. At my last assignment, we had 7 people for the entire 1500-member Group. That isn't even close to enough. As for your ADPE issues, AETC should have ordered the computers preconfigured with the proper software. As long as that was done properly, all you should need to do is literally plug them in and turn on the power. If you can't handle that, perhaps you should step away from the keyboard...

I couldn't agree more that the bureaucracy indeed sucks mightily, but we do not behave like a corporate entity because our secrets are vital to national interests. If AT&T screws up and lets some information go, there might be a lawsuit. If the AF lets some information go, we could be in serious trouble as a nation. We face more attacks in a day than all corporations worldwide do in a year. If we wait until our office networks are "where [they] should be (as good as Google's, Apple's, or Microsoft's), [and only] then...start working on our offensive 'cyber' capabilities," we will only be further behind the power curve than we already are.

"It is true, the cyber guys are doing some good stuff..."

WTF? Have all you guys grown vaginas or something? AF Comm is the biggest bunch of shoeclerk tools currently suckling at the government teet. They treat every threat with the same tactic -- shut-r-down. Memory stick threat...quit using them. Bluetooth threat...shut off the capability. Imagine if we all ran for cover the way comm does. Threat off the end of RWY 12 at Balad...close the runway forever.

Imagine a nest of Stingers at end of RWY 12 at Balad...one that we cannot get rid of and that we lose planes every time we use it. Guess what, we WON'T use RWY 12 at Balad and (don't BS me) you wouldn't fly it either until we could mitigate/defeat the threat!

A minor inconvenience isn't worth the risk to our entire network.

Edited May 5, 2010 by BQZip01

[Guest]

I imagine an offensive/defensive capability would be the SR-71 while the rest of us are stuck in Cessna 172s to do office work...

Everyone knows who the flyers are. However, you should care quite a bit about some info that is on SIPR. It would help to alleviate some of your ignorance.

Imagine a nest of Stingers at end of RWY 12 at Balad...one that we cannot get rid of and that we lose planes every time we use it. Guess what, we WON'T use RWY 12 at Balad

Maybe the best post ever, nice job.

I cannot believe how childish you pussies are about some stupid badge. Threat to our heritage? Give me a fucking break.

I also cannot believe most of you don't give a shit about what these guys bring to the fight, the best of which you will not find on SIPR, try JWICS. The cyber geeks are an important part of the team with some shit hot make you laugh and feel sorry for the enemy at the same time capabilities.

Let me put it this way, it matters to you that they can do what they do. Because it can remain invisible to you doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

Be decent team mate and learn what some of the other players do. And grow the fuck up while you're at it.

[brickhistory]

It is true, the cyber guys are doing some good stuff...

...but they need to remember they are one EMP away from irrelevance.

Now that's funny right there, I don't care who you are...

Edited May 5, 2010 by brickhistory

[zmoney]

1. Air Force e-mail does not suck and is quite secure. If you have issues with slow e-mail, it is likely a localized problem. A 75MB limit?!? Must be nice! I'm only allotted a mere 30 MB. The solution is for people to clean out their mailboxes. These are not a place for you to store everything indefinitely. Every time you log into a different computer, it has to load 75MB of e-mails into your machine. What do you think that does to network performance? While we could each chip in 50 cents and they could double your storage capacity, the basic problem would remain. The solution is to archive your e-mails in a .pst file and regularly back those up to an external drive somewhere.

I call BS on that 75 MB limit being ok. If google can provide e-mail to a larger audience than the AF (probably somewhere around 10 times the audience) with mailbox sizes that exceed 5 GB, then the AF ought to be able to provide something similar. I change workstations often (part of the job, I use one main one and I have finally created an offline PST for it) and would like to access my e-mail from any one of those workstations. As far as loading 75 MBs of e-mails everytime... I don't know why it does that. Just load the headers! That 75 MB becomes less that 1 MB, even when you're looking at 1000 emails.

3.

Wow, an amazing lack of knowledge there. Do you have any idea why they've changed all of the desktop side of the house first? It's because of idiots like you who have no CLUE about the network architecture. Yeah, your desk units and the last 20 feet of the network are all up to that capacity, but I'll wager serious money that you will not see better service until the links to your servers, the base servers/between buildings is upgraded. If they upgraded that first, you would see no improvement until they upgraded your local systems, but as soon as they upgraded it, they would get requests from all over, "Amn Snuffy has high speed. Fix mine!!!" Instead, as money comes in for upgrades, you will see a marked improvement suddenly, but will not have any recent upgrades that you have seen=less whining from the "customer".

You got right to the heart of my point. My mother in has a FTTH (Fiber to the home) (Fios) from verizon. If she can get a fiber connection into her house in 2008, the air force should AT LEAST have fiber interconnects between buildings in 2010. Now you're right, I don't know much about AF network topology, but they should also have a separate internet backbone, similar to Internet2 used by universities. Lots of my griping I think would be solved by such a solution.

4. Air Force computer support sucks, no question, but they are also stretched quite thin. At my last assignment, we had 7 people for the entire 1500-member Group. That isn't even close to enough. As for your ADPE issues, AETC should have ordered the computers preconfigured with the proper software. As long as that was done properly, all you should need to do is literally plug them in and turn on the power. If you can't handle that, perhaps you should step away from the keyboard...

It's not that I cannot do it. I do it. I enjoy doing it. But here's where its frustrating, COMM is so thin they don't have the folks to help us. So I go and install my buddy's machine and there's something wrong with it. Despite my ability to troubleshoot what it is, it will still take at least 24 hrs for someone to fix it. In this day and age of COMM stretched thin (and the AF trying to stretch it even thinner with force shaping), we should have something like CSAs. My whole point is that its tough to tell your buddy, "Hey I know I'm the one who installed this machine, but I'm not the one who can support it." If someone brings you something, they should probably be able to fix it...

I couldn't agree more that the bureaucracy indeed sucks mightily, but we do not behave like a corporate entity because our secrets are vital to national interests. If AT&T screws up and lets some information go, there might be a lawsuit. If the AF lets some information go, we could be in serious trouble as a nation. We face more attacks in a day than all corporations worldwide do in a year. If we wait until our office networks are "where [they] should be (as good as Google's, Apple's, or Microsoft's), [and only] then...start working on our offensive 'cyber' capabilities," we will only be further behind the power curve than we already are.

I agree on the potential impact of losing secret information. However, by making sure our networks are state of the art, we will also be making sure our networks are secure. Also, "cyber offense" (I hate that term cyber, replace it with Network Security or something) shouldn't be our job. (this I suppose gets into a bigger argument, way way way above my paygrade). Cyber should be the domain of folks like the NSA or another organization DESIGNED to do it.

Again, I could care less about the wings. It's not that. I just don't think COMM is doing a very good job. Is 1Lt or SSgt so and so doing a good job (comm bubbas), sure they are. But COMM / Computer Procurement as an organization has some learning to do, especially from providers like Google and Yahoo who service more folks than the AF does and they do it faster than anyone. The AF can certainly learn from Google and Yahoo in that regard.

Edited May 5, 2010 by zmoney

[M2]

In 1984, when we had the first PC delivered to our office (I think it was a Tandy 1000), the comm dude installing it said it would give us a four-day work week.

That motherfucker lied, and if I ever find him, I'm gonna kick his ass!

Back then, computers were so cool that the Incredible Hulk sold 'em...

[Guest]

In 1984, when we had the first PC delivered to our office (I think it was a Tandy 1000), the comm dude installing it said it would give us a four-day work week.

That motherfucker lied, and if I ever find him, I'm gonna kick his ass!

Talking about old school...I also remember the first computer we ever had in ops. I wrote software to compute weight and balance on that ONE computer. I had no one to bitch at except myself if it didn't work.

I call BS on that...

Your examples of commercial applications of technology is flawed. Google and Verizon are incented to offer those things because they support their P&L.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Rainman A-10

[afnav]

"It is true, the cyber guys are doing some good stuff..."

WTF? Have all you guys grown vaginas or something? AF Comm is the biggest bunch of shoeclerk tools currently suckling at the government teet. They treat every threat with the same tactic -- shut-r-down. Memory stick threat...quit using them. Bluetooth threat...shut off the capability. Imagine if we all ran for cover the way comm does. Threat off the end of RWY 12 at Balad...close the runway forever.

I'll be patient.

Yes, there is a certain amount of shoeclerk-ery going on everywhere. I have an O-6 patch in my division that is making shitty decisions and won't admit he doesn't know something when he makes a 'leadership' decision. Be a man. If you have an idea, do some research and ask the people who know the answer. No one should be afraid of saying 'I don't know'.

The memory stick is a sore topic with a lot of people, especially in my command. Of course, the problem was brought to you by the same command who puts JWICS machines in the same room with foreign nationals 'because we're too busy supporting the war effort' to manage our building layouts. Another sad lot done by others was transmitting shit on a wireless network that ought not to be transmitted.

Technology is a blessing and a curse. This particular type outpaced our ability to manage it, from a support and force utilization perspective, and the stovepiping involved for security reasons has not helped, but leadership is working on it. There have probably been instances where cyber frat has already occurred, but you get that with new tactics and strategies. You won't find the good stuff on SIPR or JWICS. SAP is a very closed area. We'll just have to hope it gets better before someone else decides to pounce on our inability to fight this new warfare capability.

Another area of concern is how to categorize this new level of warfare. Some are arguing that an attack at a certain level could be considered a WMD attack. Imagine turning out the lights. How many people are going to die in hospitals because they live on life support machines? There is something to be said on how much we rely on technology now, particularly the military.

[Guest]

I'll be patient.

SAP is a very closed area. We'll just have to hope it gets better before someone else decides to pounce on our inability to fight this new warfare capability.

Another area of concern is how to categorize this new level of warfare. Some are arguing that an attack at a certain level could be considered a WMD attack. Imagine turning out the lights. How many people are going to die in hospitals because they live on life support machines? There is something to be said on how much we rely on technology now, particularly the military.

Shack.

[busdriver]

We may be pound our heads against the wall frustrated with the speed of our old and under funded networks, but that doesn't mean the threat isn't real.

EDIT: Caveat, this post was not based on any real world knowledge. This is purely Tom Clancyesque speculation.

EDIT2: I should know better

Edited May 6, 2010 by busdriver

[Guest]

EDIT: Caveat, this post was not based on any real world knowledge. This is purely Tom Clancyesque speculation.

Point taken.

For the crowd, I would suggest no more speculation.

[jcollins]

You guys bring up valid points about the Portal, the email, the Comm Focal Point, CSAs, etc. All I can say is things are being addressed. I know you have old iron you fly, well we have the same issues in Comm. Rainman makes a great point that commercial providers are profit-driven to have the best service they can get. We get the best we can get on a shoestring budget. The CITS project is making great strides to fix our outdated infrastructure. Email sizes are going up as things centralize to the NOSC. The lack of information on the Portal is an issue, but that is unit-driven (the individual units/bases maintain their pages, not Comm) and is being address in our cultural ERM change to the Portal and the COPs. CSAs, what can I say, the Air Force is cutting our funding just like the FSS folks and your lack of Orderly Rooms. So then the CSAF has the decision to make, do we hand out additional duties CSA or do we not buy F-35s? What do you think is the better choice?

Also, to agree again with Rainman, there should be no tactical discussion here on this board. If you want to know the real world rationale on some of the lockdowns on our network, get on the SIPR or JWICS.

JCollins, I know you probably work hard and the bureaucracy sucks, but there is no excuse for the air force to be running a network like this. NONE! We may not be a corporate entity, but there is no reason our network cannot behave like one (fast, well-organized, and secure). The Air Force's focus should be on correcting deficiencies in our network, not offensive "cyber" capabilities or opening up social networking sites. Once our network is where it should be (as good as Google's, Apple's, or Microsoft's), then we can start working on our offensive "cyber" capabilities.

Going along with this logic we should buy no more F-22s, F-35s but just C-17s and KC-Xs. After we have 10,000 tankers then maybe we should buy a fighter. Does this make sense to you?

Edited May 5, 2010 by jcollins

[magnetfreezer]

CSAs, what can I say, the Air Force is cutting our funding just like the FSS folks and your lack of Orderly Rooms. So then the CSAF has the decision to make, do we hand out additional duties CSA or do we not buy F-35s? What do you think is the better choice?

Some of the frustration with CSA/ADPE/etc. is, as previous posters have brought up, the people who install the machines should be able to support them. If my new HP-6969 printer doesn't work because Windows won't install the drivers w/o admin access, letting the ADPE/CSA type have admin access wouldn't cost comm anything beyond the 15 seconds to make an entry in the accounts list.

[BQZip01]

I call BS on that 75 MB limit being ok. If google can provide e-mail to a larger audience than the AF (probably somewhere around 10 times the audience) with mailbox sizes that exceed 5 GB, then the AF ought to be able to provide something similar. I change workstations often (part of the job, I use one main one and I have finally created an offline PST for it) and would like to access my e-mail from any one of those workstations. As far as loading 75 MBs of e-mails everytime... I don't know why it does that. Just load the headers! That 75 MB becomes less that 1 MB, even when you're looking at 1000 emails.

Google makes money while the AF is given it only after begging. There is no reason that they cannot increase our total space for a small quantity of money. The problem is basically Microsoft Outlook. While it is the standard and is pretty powerful, it also can take up a lot of space and bandwidth.

You got right to the heart of my point. My mother in has a FTTH (Fiber to the home) (Fios) from verizon. If she can get a fiber connection into her house in 2008, the air force should AT LEAST have fiber interconnects between buildings in 2010. Now you're right, I don't know much about AF network topology, but they should also have a separate internet backbone, similar to Internet2 used by universities. Lots of my griping I think would be solved by such a solution.

What makes you think they don't?

COMM is so thin they don't have the folks to help us.

They are EXTREMELY thin on manning, but that is because manning documents are based on manning needs of the 1990s. If you think computers have become less complex since then, the REDUCTION in Comm manning should make perfect sense to you. For the rest of us living in the real world, it's insane. Perhaps this ops-centered focus will fix some of those problems.

However, by making sure our networks are state of the art, we will also be making sure our networks are secure.

Bullshit. Newer systems have not been tested over time and have more holes than older systems. Do you think it is coincidence that we still run some programs on Windows XP when Vista and Windows 7 are out? We aren't behind technologically; we are secure. I'll take a secure network that runs slower than one that has fancy graphics and runs faster, but is a security risk any day.

Also, "cyber offense" (I hate that term cyber, replace it with Network Security or something) shouldn't be our job. (this I suppose gets into a bigger argument, way way way above my paygrade). Cyber should be the domain of folks like the NSA or another organization DESIGNED to do it.

That is not the NSA's mission. Again, Check SIPR or higher for more info. The Air Force IS designed for it and Cyber-warfare should be waged by the military, not a civilian organization. While the AF may not be the only military entity out there, we are the most computer-centric and have the most to gain from controlling computers and networks. It is also part of our core missions: information warfare. Computer warfare and Electronic Warfare (of which the Air Force is DEFINITELY the lead military entity in the field) are VERY closely related and compliment each other to the point that it would be stupid NOT to do it.

I just don't think COMM is doing a very good job. Is 1Lt or SSgt so and so doing a good job (comm bubbas), sure they are. But COMM / Computer Procurement as an organization has some learning to do, especially from providers like Google and Yahoo who service more folks than the AF does and they do it faster than anyone. The AF can certainly learn from Google and Yahoo in that regard.

Comm is doing fine and when they are properly manned/funded you will likely see significantly better results, though I can certainly appreciate your frustration. There have been significant improvements in the past couple of years.

Maybe the best post ever, nice job.

:salut:

I cannot believe how childish you pussies are about some stupid badge. Threat to our heritage? Give me a fucking break.

I also cannot believe most of you don't give a shit about what these guys bring to the fight, the best of which you will not find on SIPR, try JWICS. The cyber geeks are an important part of the team with some shit hot make you laugh and feel sorry for the enemy at the same time capabilities.

Let me put it this way, it matters to you that they can do what they do. Because it can remain invisible to you doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

Be decent team mate and learn what some of the other players do. And grow the fuck up while you're at it.

2+

Edited May 6, 2010 by BQZip01

[FalconXtreme]

i just want everyone to know that its called a CYBERSPACE BADGE not wings. so you all can get ur panties out of a bunch now.

[Hacker]

I can't imagine how tough it must be for you to have to type those extra two characters and completely spell "your".

[M2]

i just want everyone to know that its called a CYBERSPACE BADGE not wings. so you all can get ur panties out of a bunch now.

I think we've identified one of the first wearers of this new "CYBERSPACE BADGE"...

[Guest]

I can't imagine how tough it must be for you to have to type those extra two characters and completely spell "your".

lol

wrt cybrspc com brvty, evry ltl "bit" mtrs

[Hacker]

lol

wrt cybrspc com brvty, evry ltl "bit" mtrs

Electron conservation, every bit as critical as C-3 comm.

[brabus]

The solution is for people to clean out their mailboxes

Negative, the solution is for the first shirt, wing douchebag, CGO assclown, etc. to STOP filling everyone's in-container with 6-9 ppt announcements and various emails per day. Literally 90% of my email is completely bullshit that I care 0% about. Luckily someone smart invented the auto-delete rule in Outlook, which helps mitigate these retarded emails decently, but still some sneak through. Most users are not the problem, it's the dumbasses who send mass spam mail 10 times a day.

regularly back those up to an external drive somewhere.

Comm killed that possibility long ago.

[Guest stakkar]

I wonder how long I can last before someone bitches about me being out of uniform for not wearing this thing. Being in a joint assignment, I'd wager 7-8 months.

[FalconXtreme]

I think we've identified one of the first wearers of this new "CYBERSPACE BADGE"...

not really but i just find it hilarious how u guys are going bonkers over a badge that looks nothing like aero wings. if anything the space cadets should be the ones pissed bc it looks like their badge more than anything.

[Mephisto]

Again, I could care less about the wings. It's not that. I just don't think COMM is doing a very good job. Is 1Lt or SSgt so and so doing a good job (comm bubbas), sure they are. But COMM / Computer Procurement as an organization has some learning to do, especially from providers like Google and Yahoo who service more folks than the AF does and they do it faster than anyone. The AF can certainly learn from Google and Yahoo in that regard.

Google and Microsoft are able to do it fast because they aren't spending taxpayer money to do it. Plus they don't care nearly as much about security as the AF does. The network is "slow" to expand and "slow" in speed because of the security required to run systems that process national security information. The speed will increase as tech and organization become better, but it will always be "slow" compared to your home system that has possibly already been compromised by malware and is being used as a bot to attack the DoD.

[magnetfreezer]

not really but i just find it hilarious how u guys are going bonkers over a badge that looks nothing like aero wings. if anything the space cadets should be the ones pissed bc it looks like their badge more than anything.

Looks like we're already screwed since the OPFOR stole your shift key.

[Mephisto]

While there are 33S that wish they were operators like any other non-rated types, the majority of the 33S I know are fighting to stay 33S and avoid getting sucked into the 17D fold. I guess in the end it doesn't matter anyway. People way over their pay-grades made the decision, and 99% of my non-rated bros are pulling the handle the first chance they get anyway.

Well the majority of 33S won't be operators anyway as 17DxB. They don't have to fight to stay anywhere as it's the same job with a different designation. Operations will pretty much be limited to 17DxA.