Cannon AFB

[FlyinGrunt]

Guineapig, you'd have to recall him to active duty . . . not that I wouldn't give up a kidney to see that happen and see him sent to Leavenworth as you suggest . . .

[Tumbleweed]

From the gunship side (and yeah, I get that they are only 1 piece) yes, Melrose is worse than the Eglin Range complex. The fancy new targets are nice, but provide nothing in increased training value.

You must be new to gunships. The targets are Melrose are FAR better, add the urban setups and it blows A-77, A-78, B-7 away... The targets at Eglin are beat up rusted hulks that are in the same arrangement they were 15 years ago.

Only moving targets would do that, but AFSOC wouldn't spend the money.

Again, you must be new or uninformed. AFSOC did spend the money and moving targets are now in use on Melrose (<a https://www.afsoc.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/2013/02/130204-F-AX764-446.jpg). They actually have two moving target set ups, one a large sled towed by a truck and the smaller setup that is like a battle bot which simulates a human.

The airspace is <strong>more</strong> restrictive than Eglin because of the impact areas' proximity to the eastern edge of the Restricted Area which makes manuevers while live firing or integration with fast movers difficult. For 90% of the time AFSOC has existed at Cannon, there has only been one impact area open and available for gunhsip use making live fire scheduling harder than anything I ever saw with Eglin. And, it's been rectified, but for a long time AFSOC did NOT own the range, and DID NOT set priority on Melrose range.

The airspace restrictions you mentioned were self-imposed, just like the orbit limitations we had on Eglin for 15 years. Cannon DOES own and HAS owned Melrose for a while, it just took a while to get the funding to make it a gunship range. Both impact areas are open and they are turning joint users away.

As far as the terrain being simliar to where we fight: put down the kool-ad. I think most would agree that OEF is one of the most straightforward battlefields we will ever see (and we've got 12yrs experience with it), we shouldn't be training to the lowest common denominator. We should be training towards the most difficult theater, and then when the Afghanistan's of the world come around, it'll be a cakewalk. Plow out a dirt LZ anywhere in the world to let the rotary wing guys deal with brownout landings, and call it good. I'll give you the low-level routes over Hurlburt, <strong>but just barely</strong>. And from the gunship side, simulating full mission profiles over Clovis/Portales day after day after day because we don't have the legs to make the next nearest civilization center has drained so much expertise from the community, it's sad.

What Koolaid? For gunships, I agree, the terrain is not as good as it was at Hurlburt, there are no Antioch churches to go shoot on a Dry Fire, but for the rest of the community it is VERY good training. Your "plow an LZ anywhere in the work and do brownouts is well, ignorant. There is a tremendous difference doing LVA's in the sand at sea level at HRT versus real dust at 4300' at CVS.

Cannon meant to reduce deployment time to the Pacific? Joke. Hope you don't have to deploy a combat configured AC-130 in July without immediate tanker support, cause guess what...they'd have to depart EAST to Dyess in order to onload enough fuel to make the next available airfield to the West. A departure from HRT without tanker support would literally make <strong>better</strong> time. With tanker support? Do the work to make a comparison of the routes. The result will suprise you.

I don't think you read what I wrote, I said the purpose of a west coast base was supposed to reduce the time to deploy to the pacific. With the ACH that will not happen, a lot of folks said that up front. The temps in the summer make it a poor choice, but the ACH is going to the boneyard soon (the first one in a few months), and the ACJ will have the performance to overcome the told considerations. Again, not perfect and not defending the choice of Cannon, but it is not the doom and gloom you hear.

The users come to Cannon by force only. We used to have units show to HRT all the time, yes to get their yearly training in, but because their guys saw it as a desireable TDY location. Now they avoid it like the plague and only show when they have to.

ABSOLUTE NONSENSE, you might truly have no clue. Cannon (Melrose), is turning people away.

Camping, hunting, hiking? Yes, a 3hr drive away. Name a location in the U.S. where that isn't available within a 3hr drive.

Agreed, I said those thing were there along with other things. Plain and simple if you joined the military to live on the beach, well AFSOC and Cannon are not for you, but if you joined to serve then every assignment is what you make of it.

1000 homes coming on the market you say? Awesome, I'm sure the guys that bought houses at extortion prices, because rentals and base housing were <strong>absolutely non-existant</strong>, will enjoy having a small market like that flooded with new/free/high-quality homes. That'll do wonders for their property values.

I have no knowledge of corruption on the part of military folks buying property before the announcement, if true I hope they go to jail. What I do know is DoD closed the privatized housing deal with Belfour Beatty and they took over the housing on 1 Aug. They have 60 days to begin construction on the new homes and they have a very good track record. I forget the exact numbers but they are going to build 600+ new units to modern size and amenity standards, bulldoze current Joe Cannon Homes, and renovate all of the homes in Chavez West. They have three years to complete the entire project which will bring 1,000 new homes to Cannon. It is a huge step in the right direction that will put some pressure on the locals to lower the absorbent prices downtown. Perfect, nope, but a step forward.

AFSOC is at Cannon to stay. I get it, deal with it. But quit reading Gen Wooley's talking paper to justify the location. The only justification is that AFSOC wanted a bigger footprint, more command billets, and more money under their control. End of story. Oh, except for the chance to cash in on shady real estate deals. You can include that, too.

No talking points, just the reality of the situation. AFSOC always wanted a west coast base to make it easier to get to the pacific and yes they wanted another wing. At the end of the day, it is what it is and it is what you make of it. If you sit around and bitch rather than try to make it better then you will likely be miserable no matter where you are.

[HerkFE]

I don't know $h!t about firing bullets from an aircraft at stuff on the ground but that rope is too damn short.

[backseatdriver]

I don't know $h!t about firing bullets from an aircraft at stuff on the ground but that rope is too damn short.

HINT: A) There's no one in the truck. 2) And it's only too short if you miss.

[HerkFE]

HINT: A) There's no one in the truck. 2) And it's only too short if you miss.

See, I told you I didn't know $h!t.

[arg]

I see my cost saving suggestion to let prisoners drive the truck was disapproved.

Edited August 7, 2013 by arg

[Mark1]

You must be new to gunships...

Yeah, you've got my number. I'm a Junior in the ROTC program hoping to go to gunships.

It's too long a conversation to have over this forum, but they did not invest in the opportunity to install persistently available, permanent, moving target infrastructure on the impact areas. The band-aid alternative is nice, but not that nice. How many days out of the ~1500 since gunships arrived at Cannon has the moving target option been available and used? The best time to address the issue is when you're building two impact areas from the ground up. It wasn't done...or rather was considered and shelved in favor of other 'luxuries'.

Putting a tank in between a couple conex's and calling it an urban setup is cute, but does very little to impact training effectiveness...that's not a complaint, Im just saying that it's not a plus in the Cannon column over Eglin either.

If you scheduled your airspace with it in mind at the Eglin complex, you could own an entire altitude block in the R-area and therefore have miles in any direction to manuever IVO the impact areas. That is not the case with Melrose. It can be dealt with, but is a clear benefit of the Eglin complex. (I'm not talking about simultaneous live fire as your response seems to assume).

And again, users come to Melrose when they have to. Like, for example, when AFSOC throws a bone it's way to prop up it's image of usefulness and sends Emerald Warrior out for the year. For the air component it's fine or even better than the HRT area, but not for the training of the guys on the ground. XP may turn guys away, but they aren't the same guys that were turned away from HRT years ago. A 5 minute talk with the guys when they're forced out there for their once-every-other-year would tell you all you need to know.

New base housing is a step in the right direction, sure, but it's going to be on the backs of those that have been there from the beginning and have a stake in the market, as opposed to AFSOC creating the necessary infrastructure before moving thousands of people out. Talk to the E-3s that were forced to go downtown on E-3 BAH and find a place to stay because the base couldn't house them...they were too busy building DV billeting and couldn't be bothered to get a dorm up. I hope those guys were prepared for the random gunshots and drug use that exists around the areas that a couple E-3s can afford.

Anyway, it's way off topic.

Marginally on topic, the gunship community lost a bunch of dudes the first time they tried to send guys out to Cannon who dropped paperwork when they were given orders from the 4th to the 16th. The second time around things were slightly better when orders were strategically dropped largely to guys that didn't have a choice in the matter. It appears that the left hand doesn't talk to the right...the U-28 leadership will probably have to come to grips with the fact that they'll have to do the same.

[HU&W]

New base housing is a step in the right direction, sure, but it's going to be on the backs of those that have been there from the beginning and have a stake in the market, as opposed to AFSOC creating the necessary infrastructure before moving thousands of people out.

Shack

[addict]

It is a huge step in the right direction that will put some pressure on the locals to lower the absorbent prices downtown. Perfect, nope, but a step forward/

I want to know more about these land lords who are just mopping up.

[Dead Last]

My crew and I fragged the shit out of that ford and managed to put our fair share of the holes in the towed vehicle on the first day of live fire.

To all you U-28 pansies getting out because of orders to Cannon, fuck you, hope you enjoyed florida and welcome to team cannon. I don't know about you, to the ones getting out because of cannon I'm sure I know about you, but I requested this place/command for the MISSION... I've had a blast here over the last 5 years and am getting out for other reasons. But seriously, if you dropped papers and still have a commitment... I'd welcome you and have a very nice house for sale in the North East of this amazing town and would give you a "friends" price but hope to be gone well before you show up.

cheers

[AnimalMother]

...and that kids, is why we don't take steroids.

[theat6bisasham]

...and that kids, is why we don't take steroids.

Dead Last represents everything that is wrong with the Air Force and it's leaders in general with that dumb as$ remark. Because he had a shit deal, and other people don't want the same treatment, somehow they are pansies..... :banghead: :banghead:

[tunes]

Well, that escalated quickly

[AnimalMother]

You shot a dude. Might want to lay low for a while.

[DUNBAR]

I want to know more about these land lords who are just mopping up.

It's bad. The tenants are getting completely soaked, although some are still new, and wet behind the ears.

[contraildash]

It is a huge step in the right direction that will put some pressure on the locals to lower the absorbent prices downtown. Perfect, nope, but a step forward.

Having drove around town for several days on the hunt for a good rental, I was amazed at the number of houses for sale. Friends there had told me, including one who's wife is a realator, how the market is definetly a buyer's market right now but it sucks for everyone trying to sell. I'm not a realestate expert, but I think that the new housing will hurt sellers for a period of time, but will drive down rental prices in the long run.

What infuriated me was that the rentals in Clovis were more expensive per sq/ft than anything I've ever seen, by a wide margin. Most rentals are two-three times the going mortgage rate if you bought a new house. Several friends bought a house since their mortgage was around 50% of their BAH. I just don't want to have any connection with Clovis when I get outa there. Fortunately, I got really lucky and found a great rental that is a new build AND within my BAH. Seriously felt like we won the powerball.

[hindsight2020]

If I was faced with that PCS and I had kids of school age, I'd be putting the family in Lubbock and geobash that assignment until the next PCS/expiration of ADSC, whichever came first. No reason your family's well-being has to suffer just because the DOD is in the business of propping up the local economies of the lazy and unambitious.

[Azimuth]

If I was faced with that PCS and I had kids of school age, I'd be putting the family in Lubbock and geobash that assignment until the next PCS/expiration of ADSC, whichever came first. No reason your family's well-being has to suffer just because the DOD is in the business of propping up the local economies of the lazy and unambitious.

That happens at Altus a lot.

[hindsight2020]

That happens at Altus a lot.

Yep. And Laughlin as well.

[Mark1]

Having drove around town for several days on the hunt for a good rental, I was amazed at the number of houses for sale. Friends there had told me, including one who's wife is a realator, how the market is definetly a buyer's market right now but it sucks for everyone trying to sell. I'm not a realestate expert, but I think that the new housing will hurt sellers for a period of time, but will drive down rental prices in the long run.

What infuriated me was that the rentals in Clovis were more expensive per sq/ft than anything I've ever seen, by a wide margin. Most rentals are two-three times the going mortgage rate if you bought a new house. Several friends bought a house since their mortgage was around 50% of their BAH. I just don't want to have any connection with Clovis when I get outa there. Fortunately, I got really lucky and found a great rental that is a new build AND within my BAH. Seriously felt like we won the powerball.

Funny because when the bulk of the move from Florida took place circa 2009, when the housing market throughout the rest of the country was in the crapper, home prices were higher in Clovis than pre-crash...by a significant margin. Economically understandable, but tough for guys that had to eat the impact of the crash on their Florida market homes, only to move to a market where they couldn't obtain a home at a comparably depressed price. Now, in the rest of the country the market is fairly hot, some places have returned to all time high home values. It's a competitive sellers market in those places...and the opposite in Clovis. Just in time for 4 year onstation PCS season. Double######ed.

[Liquid]

People that whine and bitch about PCS orders crack me up. All assignments have pros and cons and are what you make of them. People bitch about the commute and cost of living at the Pentagon, living anywhere overseas, traffic at Travis, being underwater in your house in Vegas, and being so far away from mommy and daddy. Cannon isn't for everyone, but the weather is great, the cost of living is low, crime is low, traffic is light, schools are good, MWR is well funded and there is plenty to do outdoors. When you joined, you had to understand the concept of going where the AF needs you to go, when the AF needs you to go. If you opt out of an assignment by establishing a date of separation, you will be thanked for your service. If you do it with retainability left on your ADSC, you will probably get orders anyway. But if you think the AF should close bases and adjust assignments because you don't like the locations, you are naive. Willing to risk dying in an aircraft, getting an 88mm rocket dropped on your head, or engaging an enemy, but not willing to accept an assignment the AF needs you to take because it isn't on your list of acceptable assignments? Not sure you were ever really cut out for this profession anyway. Good luck on the outside.

[AnimalMother]

I just choked on my dinner. Liquid, are you serious? You obviously have not spent very much time there. I agree with much of what you said, but the part about Cannon? Great weather? Ive lost count of how many sorties we've cnxd due to the winds and the dust storms. The base was lucky not to lose any planes to the two massive hail storms we've had in the last few weeks. Cost of living is low? We pay 20-50$ more per square foot here than in FL, and in FL we are a mile from some of the nicest beaches in the country. Low crime? tell that to all my friends who've had their cars broken into. Light traffic? Sort of, but getting onto base still takes 30 minutes in the AM. Plenty to do outdoors? True, if you dont mind driving 3-5 hours each weekend, unless youre into dairy farming. Schools are good? I guess if your teenage daughter needs free day care to finish her 3rd attempt at the 9th grade then you might think so. Throw in the shady-as-hell circumstances surrounding AFSOC's acquisition of the base, the repulsive attitude of many of the locals, the constant smell of fecal matter, and the tap water that I won't give to my dog, and hardly a rational person would see this as a desirable place to raise a family, or even live. Do some people like it here? of course, and good for them, but some people also volunteered to go live on Mars, and good for them too.

I do love the last spear though, I'm sure it helps senior leadership sleep at night, but it sure as shit misses the entire point of the issue here.

Honest question: If the Air Force decided to make your next assignment Chernobyl, would you go?

To all you U-28 pansies getting out because of orders to Cannon, ###### you,

Wait, what about all the AC-130 pansies that got out because of orders to Cannon? Or the squadron that deliberately fudged its performance data so it wouldn't have to go to Cannon at all?

Edited August 22, 2013 by AnimalMother

[Azimuth]

People that whine and bitch about PCS orders crack me up. All assignments have pros and cons and are what you make of them. People bitch about the commute and cost of living at the Pentagon, living anywhere overseas, traffic at Travis, being underwater in your house in Vegas, and being so far away from mommy and daddy. Cannon isn't for everyone, but the weather is great, the cost of living is low, crime is low, traffic is light, schools are good, MWR is well funded and there is plenty to do outdoors. When you joined, you had to understand the concept of going where the AF needs you to go, when the AF needs you to go. If you opt out of an assignment by establishing a date of separation, you will be thanked for your service. If you do it with retainability left on your ADSC, you will probably get orders anyway. But if you think the AF should close bases and adjust assignments because you don't like the locations, you are naive. Willing to risk dying in an aircraft, getting an 88mm rocket dropped on your head, or engaging an enemy, but not willing to accept an assignment the AF needs you to take because it isn't on your list of acceptable assignments? Not sure you were ever really cut out for this profession anyway. Good luck on the outside.

The tone of this post makes me think your worst assignment was your UPT base.

[ThreeHoler]

My "worst" assignment was my UPT base. Columbus wasn't that bad. And the traffic at Travis is nothing compared to the idiocy of the main gate and single-lane roundabout just inside it at McGuire...

[Liquid]

I just choked on my dinner. Liquid, are you serious? You obviously have not spent very much time there. I agree with much of what you said, but the part about Cannon? Great weather? Ive lost count of how many sorties we've cnxd due to the winds and the dust storms. The base was lucky not to lose any planes to the two massive hail storms we've had in the last few weeks. Cost of living is low? We pay 20-50$ more per square foot here than in FL, and in FL we are a mile from some of the nicest beaches in the country. Low crime? tell that to all my friends who've had their cars broken into. Light traffic? Sort of, but getting onto base still takes 30 minutes in the AM. Plenty to do outdoors? True, if you dont mind driving 3-5 hours each weekend, unless youre into dairy farming. Schools are good? I guess if your teenage daughter needs free day care to finish her 3rd attempt at the 9th grade then you might think so. Throw in the shady-as-hell circumstances surrounding AFSOC's acquisition of the base, the repulsive attitude of many of the locals, the constant smell of fecal matter, and the tap water that I won't give to my dog, and hardly a rational person would see this as a desirable place to raise a family, or even live. Do some people like it here? of course, and good for them, but some people also volunteered to go live on Mars, and good for them too.

I do love the last spear though, I'm sure it helps senior leadership sleep at night, but it sure as shit misses the entire point of the issue here.

Honest question: If the Air Force decided to make your next assignment Chernobyl, would you go?

Wait, what about all the AC-130 pansies that got out because of orders to Cannon? Or the squadron that deliberately fudged its performance data so it wouldn't have to go to Cannon at all?

I can't stand the humidity in FL, I prefer the dry climate and it cooling off at night. My kids went to FWB HS and Clovis HS. Clovis High is better than FWB, fewer drugs, fewer fights, fewer pregnancies, fewer racists, decent AP program, good sports program. Rent is higher, but insurance, taxes, fees, electricity, food and everything else is cheaper. Overall, a much lower cost of living. And the restaurants are below average so you don't eat out as much. Sure you cancel for winds every now and then, but the Crestview line impacts training more. Tap water sucks in Florida too and there are plenty of bases where bottled water is the standard in the home. At Cannon you get it free at two locations. It takes 30 minutes to get on base at MacDill during rush hour, with an hour commute from Brandon. It smells like cow shit, but Tyndall smells like paper mills. Fort Campbell and Tinker took real storm damage, not almost damage. I thought it was a great place to be with my family. I get it that you didn't like it, but I don't get the "keep me at Hurlburt or I will separate" bullshit. And yes, I would go to Chernobyl. K2, KAF, BAF and DJ aren't much worse. My family will go wherever I go, including overseas, they are great. The real estate conspiracy is bullshit. BRAC, housing crisis, credit crunch and long MILCON lead time created a housing shortage. People at Creech and Nellis can't sell their houses or rent them and are underwater. People who bought early at Cannon make money on rentals. You can still buy for bargains. Free market is a bitch and a cash cow, but it is better than rent control. Haters will be haters, just don't expect special treatment.

The tone of this post makes me think your worst assignment was your UPT base.

Why?