MC-12 Training and Center Thrust Restriction

[Hacker]

Anyone know if the folks at Flight Safety can/will remove the Centerline Thrust Restriction to an FAA Comm/Multi when doing the checkride for MC-12 training?

I've heard directly contradicting information;

Flight Safety's own information packet says that they won't allow the checkride to count as an ATP / Be-350 type ride if the student has the Restriction, which implies that the student needs that Restriction removed the minute they walk in the door on the first day.

2ndhand I've heard that more than one student has shown up to training with the Restriction, had Flight Safety add the Vmc Demo maneuver series into the checkride itself, and was able to get the ATP and the Type.

I tried calling Flight Safety, but couldn't get ahold of anyone who understood what I was really asking about.

[moosepileit]

Disclaimer- I'm not King Air typed.

I would NOT have guessed you could go into a 737 type/ATP mill from ACC and not the King Air mill. Really? How did SWA and Continental get to hire all those ACC bros w/ 737 types otherwise?

Maybe a rep from a FlightSafety 737 school could hint to King Air school that you can probably figure out the control inputs and theory just fine in the allocated hours. (I know they are different companies under different FAA inspectors, yada yada ).

Or, throw away the info packet, show up and see if the economy improved overnight and there's now a line of folks ready to replace your un-qualified self.

I wouldn't waste the time unless you can find the actual author of the info packet. Better yet, speak with one of the designees that would actually administer the checkride removing the limitation. A "no" from them might actually stick, and a "yes" today can be a "no" tomorrow.... But, you knew that... Where's the icon for hitting yourself w/ a hammer?

Edited June 26, 2010 by moosepileit

[Kuma]

Anyone know if the folks at Flight Safety can/will remove the Centerline Thrust Restriction to an FAA Comm/Multi when doing the checkride for MC-12 training?

I've heard directly contradicting information;

Flight Safety's own information packet says that they won't allow the checkride to count as an ATP / Be-350 type ride if the student has the Restriction, which implies that the student needs that Restriction removed the minute they walk in the door on the first day.

2ndhand I've heard that more than one student has shown up to training with the Restriction, had Flight Safety add the Vmc Demo maneuver series into the checkride itself, and was able to get the ATP and the Type.

I tried calling Flight Safety, but couldn't get ahold of anyone who understood what I was really asking about.

I have some experience in this situation. I have a buddy who has a very similar flight background to mine. The only difference really is that he did an assignment as a T-37 IP and I did mine as a T-6 IP. He got his multi-engine rating(with centerline restriction) out of the tweet and I went down to the local FBO and flew a Seminole to get mine (no centerline restriction).

When I went for IQT in the MC-12 I walked out with a type rating (I already had an ATP but could have gotten it) and he walked out with nothing more than a checkout. Flight Safety refused to give him a type or an ATP because he had the centerline restriction on his certificate.

We both went to Wichita Flight Safety. Perhaps the guys at Atlanta have a different sight picture and that is why you are getting conflicting information.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Kuma

[Hound47]

Im going through this right now...When I went to Flight Safety Seattle recently I had the Centerline Thrust restriction and they would not remove it for me which resulted in them being unable to give me a type in the aircraft I was there for. However, all you have to do to get the restriction removed and credit for the type is take your Form 8 from the Air Force Instrument Check you should get at your unit and go to the FSDO. The mil comp rules will allow you to have the restriction removed and recieve credit for the type.

Ultimately, I think Flight Safety could remove the restriction fairly easily but it seemed to me they didnt want to do extra work.

[Guest Trunk]

Also, if you're asking on behalf of UPT studs who are MC-12 inbound, FSI won't give the B300 type-rating to dudes with less than 1000 hours anyway - company policy. You could argue FAA rules with them, but it's easier (and recommended) to just take the Meridian form 8 down to the FSDO after the fact.

[Hacker]

Kuma, how many hours in the Seminole did it take to remove the restriction? I assume that you also had to pay "full fare" for a DE to sign you off?

[Guest Hueypilot812]

Interesting how the military can get you checked out in a King Air 350 (which requires a type to be the PIC), and then eventually cert you as an Aircraft Commander and somehow FSI won't give you a type or remove the centerline restriction. Avoid FSI altogether, because ultimately the thing that will earn your type rating and removal of the centerline thrust restriction will be your demonstrated qualification in a USAF aircraft, which the FSDO recognizes.

Personally, I have never had a third party contractor award me a type rating. I didn't get a type rating from CAE when I finished C-21 qual, nor did I get a type from Lockheed Martin when I finished both C-130E or C-130J training. That didn't mean I couldn't demonstrate to the FAA that such qualifications were duly earned, however.

The way I would approach it is to get checked out in the KA350, get upgraded to PIC, and then walk down to the FSDO...you have now demonstrated you have acted as PIC of an aircraft that A) requires a type rating, therefore you should be able to get the type, and B) you have acted as a PIC with appropriate USAF evaluations qualifying you in an airplane with a demonstrated Vmca, which should mean they can remove the centerline thrust restriction.

Edit to add: I wouldn't spend your money flying a multi-engine Seminole, because according to the FAA's own rules, just having a USAF Form 8 and PIC qualification will earn you both the type and the removal of the restrictions.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Hueypilot812

[Kuma]

Hueypilot- You are absolutely correct. If you are flying an airplane that has a civilian equivalent, you can go to the FSDO with your Form8 and get your ratings.

Hacker- I was a Marine Cobra pilot at the time. I didn't have any multi-engine FW time. I paid $1500 for 10 hours of Seminole time to get training (ground school plus 4 sorties at 2 hours a piece) and my checkride (airplane rental for the checkride). Additionally, I paid the DE $300 (I think) for administering my multi-engine check ride. I never had a centerline restriction. That was over 10 years ago, so add $ for inflation.

If you are going to go to the MC-12 then it is really a non-issue...go to IQT at Flight Safety. If they will give you that extra Vmc demo and remove the restriction then you are golden. If not, after you complete MQT at Meridian and have a Form8 in hand, go to your local FSDO and you will get the BE 300 type rating (and remove the centerline thrust restriction).

A BE 300 rating is good for BE 300, BE 300C, BE 350, BE 350C to include the ER versions. Also, it says you are typed in both EFIS and Collins Proline 21 BE300 series aircraft.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Kuma

[Hacker]

get checked out in the KA350, get upgraded to PIC, and then walk down to the FSDO...

go to IQT at Flight Safety. If they will give you that extra Vmc demo and remove the restriction then you are golden. If not, after you complete MQT at Meridian and have a Form8 in hand, go to your local FSDO and you will get the BE 300 type rating (and remove the centerline thrust restriction).

Thanks for the words, dudes.

It's more about the ATP than it is the Be-350 type. If you don't have the centerline thrust restriction, and you have more than 1,000 hours PIC, FSI will make the MC-12 checkride count for both the ATP and the type rating. If you do have the restriction, then they won't do either.

So, just trying to kill the most expensive/important bird with the stones allocated by Uncle Sam.

[Jughead]

It's more about the ATP than it is the Be-350 type. If you don't have the centerline thrust restriction, and you have more than 1,000 hours PIC, FSI will make the MC-12 checkride count for both the ATP and the type rating. If you do have the restriction, then they won't do either.

Just for clarity, keep in mind that 1,500 total hours is the required number (FAA) for an ATP. The 1,000 hour min (and I believe that is also total hours, not PIC) is FSI's company policy for awarding the type cert (which is BS, but what are you gonna do?).

Otherwise, others have already answered the basics. I just left Balad, it was a pretty good deployment. I'd thought I'd heard from some of the newer arrivals before I left that the pendulum had swung (again) and that FSI was once again doing the Vmca demo in the sim & deleting the centerline thrust restriction for those students to whom it applied--YMMV, that's rumor-level only. Good luck!

[Guest Hueypilot812]

I don't know if you ever plan on getting a B737 type in the future (I am, because SWA is really the only airline I'd fly for these days), but most of the 737 training facilities will also eval you for the ATP if you want. I'm gonna plunk down the $$$ for that in the next few years. Even if SWA doesn't pick me up, there are plenty of other operators flying the 737. Don't forget, if you're planning out your post-USAF flying career, that many places still want to see that you've got your Turbojet FE written done too. Not required by some operators anymore, but still something that's worthwhile to have because you just never know who's hiring when you get out.

Bottom line: There's a lot of ways to get the ATP without actually having to go through an ATP-only course. Just remember, once you find a way to get the practical done (whether through FSI or somewhere else) you can always take the written and I think it's good for a year. I'd check on that one-year requirement (I'm just thinking off the top of my cranium), but you don't want to show up at the BE300 or some other program without it done.

[Bluto]

I'd check on that one-year requirement (I'm just thinking off the top of my cranium), but you don't want to show up at the BE300 or some other program without it done.

Yeah that's where I screwed up. I showed up at IQT without my written hoping to get it knocked out there but they needed the paperwork by day 3. I'm curious if I can just go back after my deployment and take the checkride or a refresher course.

[Guest Walter Sobchuk]

Yeah that's where I screwed up. I showed up at IQT without my written hoping to get it knocked out there but they needed the paperwork by day 3. I'm curious if I can just go back after my deployment and take the checkride or a refresher course.

Concerning the ATP written, it's good for 2 years. I am at Wichita's Flight Safety and just took the written yesterday. Also, the folks here said all I needed to do was show them satisfactory results for an ATP written anytime prior to the checkride. If people are being told to produce results within 3 days, it sounds like ATL's and ICT's Flight Saftey folks are not on the same page. A lot of people in this program (MC-12s) are getting short noticed and you'd think FSI in ATL would be a little more understanding if you wanted to capitalize on some training. Bluto, I would think if you went back for a BE-350 recurrent course, you should be able to get an ATP check out of it no problem.

[Hacker]

Just heard from some guys fresh back from Atlanta that, as advertised, Flight Safety has cracked down on helping out dudes with the CL thrust restriction, and will not allow the ATP ride for anyone who has the restriction on day 1 of training.

Has anyone actually gone to an FBO and had a checkride with a DE to remove the CL restriction? The one FBO I called yesterday reacted to me as if I were a complete moron when I said I just wanted a checkride to perform the Vmca demo and the single-engine approach/landing. The guy I talked to laughed as if he'd never heard of such a thing as a "centerline thrust restriction".

If there's anyone else out there looking to do this, this is what FAA Order 8900.1, Volume 5, Chapter 1, Section 4, Part F says:

2) Removal of the “Limited-to-Center Thrust” limitation at the commercial pilot certificate level will require an applicant to satisfactorily perform the following area of operations and tasks from the current Commercial Pilot Practical Test Standards (FAA-S-8081-12) during the practical test in a multiengine airplane that has a manufacturer’s published VMC.

a) Area of Operation I: Preflight Preparation, includes:

• Task H: Principles of Flight - Engine Inoperative.

b) Area of Operation X: Emergency Operations, includes:

• Task B: Engine Failure During Takeoff Before VMC (Simulated).

• Task C: Engine Failure After Lift-Off (Simulated).

• Task D: Approach and Landing with an Inoperative Engine (Simulated).

c) Area of Operation XI: Multiengine Operations, includes:

• Task A: Maneuvering with One Engine Inoperative.

• Task B: VMC Demonstration.

So, the trick is finding an FBO and DE who will instruct to, and check to, only these items...else you are going to spend a lot more time and money.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Hacker

[Flare]

Just heard from some guys fresh back from Atlanta that, as advertised, Flight Safety has cracked down on helping out dudes with the CL thrust restriction, and will not allow the ATP ride for anyone who has the restriction on day 1 of training.

Has anyone actually gone to an FBO and had a checkride with a DE to remove the CL restriction? The one FBO I called yesterday reacted to me as if I were a complete moron when I said I just wanted a checkride to perform the Vmca demo and the single-engine approach/landing. The guy I talked to laughed as if he'd never heard of such a thing as a "centerline thrust restriction".

If there's anyone else out there looking to do this, this is what FAA Order 8900.1, Volume 5, Chapter 1, Section 4, Part F says:

So, the trick is finding an FBO and DE who will instruct to, and check to, only these items...else you are going to spend a lot more time and money.

Hacker...any luck finding a place that caters to this, and any idea of the cost associated with it?

[Hacker]

Hacker...any luck finding a place that caters to this, and any idea of the cost associated with it?

I'm going to do it (sts) through Tulsa Community College's aviation program, and the cost (including the DE and checkride) will be something on the order of $1500.

Once I'm finished I'll post a more detailed breakdown.

[Hacker]

Just an update on this:

The deal over at Tulsa CC totaled just about $1200, including ground instruction, aircraft rental, and DPE cost for the checkride.

Started off with a morning of ground instruction on light piston twin aerodynamics. I thought beforehand that this would be throwaway information, but it turned out to be legitimate (and now I get why most fighters have the centerline thrust restriction -- it's more about pistons and props than it is how far the engines are away from aircraft centerline).

Then it was 2 sorties, just under 3 hours of total time, in a PA-44 Seminole. First sortie was mostly aircraft fam, although we practiced all of the maneuvers that were required on the checkride, too. Second sortie was a typical rehearsal of the checkride profile.

Checkride itself was just under an hour on the Hobbs, with a 2-ish hour ground eval. With one notable exception, the events came directly from the Commercial/Multi PTS that I quoted above (more on that later).

Ground eval:

- Critical Engines and aerodynamic forces

- Vmc certification criteria, and how Vmc changes with changes in each of those criteria

- Weight and balance, TOLD calculation

- Some Seminole systems GK

Sortie:

- Engine failure on takeoff, takeoff aborted

- Engine failure on departure

- Engine failure in the practice area, full engine shutdown/prop feather

- Vmc demo

- Sim IMC/hooded instrument approach, single engine

- Single engine landing

You'll note that the PTS quoted in my earlier post says "approach and landing", with nothing about an "instrument approach". Well, it turns out that the most current version of the Commercial PTS was issued in 2002 and has an error in this particular section. In addition, since 2002, the FAA has issued a ruling that says if you want to be able to exercise instrument privileges with ANY certificate you're earning/modifying/changing, you have to include instrument flying and an approach in the checkride (surprise, cock bag!).

So, the toughest part of the whole affair was learning to use the meager avionics in the Seminole to fly the approach. It had dual VOR/NAVs, but no DME, so that was a little tough to gain situational awareness with a crosscheck based on an aircraft with much, much better toys (and with only one practice attempt before the checkride...get up for it).

Overall, the staff and instructors at Tulsa Community College was top notch -- very thorough and well prepared, and treated us well as 'students'. I'd highly recommend them to anyone interested in doing the same thing.

I can give details on the FAA examiner via PM to anyone who is interested. Without a doubt, a very fair checkride and an examiner with a great sight picture.

[Flare]

Hacker--did you do this all in a weekend, or what kind of time-frame did it take you?

[busdriver]

it's more about pistons and props than it is how far the engines are away from aircraft centerline

Hacker, do you have a quick and dirty version of this? I imagine the prop part has to do with P factor and the way the prop wash interacts with the rudder. The piston thing? Uneven cooling of the cylinders due to yaw angles?

[Hacker]

Hacker--did you do this all in a weekend, or what kind of time-frame did it take you?

Three days. If the airplane hadn't had a maintenance squawk on the first day, it only would have taken two days (one day of academics and two prep sorties, and one day taking the checkride).

Hacker, do you have a quick and dirty version of this? I imagine the prop part has to do with P factor and the way the prop wash interacts with the rudder. The piston thing? Uneven cooling of the cylinders due to yaw angles?

It has to do with the 4 factors that create a "critical engine" on a piston/prop twin (one which has the engines both turning in the same direction, at least) when one engine is failed. They teach the memory aid "PAST"; P-Factor, Accelerated Slipstream, Spiraling Slipstream, and Torque. These 4 factors all create additional forces trying to roll and yaw the airplane into the dead engine when one is failed (amplifying the obvious asymmetric thrust created by having one engine out).

Jets simply don't have three of these forces; P-factor has to do with prop behavior in high angle of attack, accelerated slipstream has to do with wind behind the props moving over the wing and creating lift, spiraling slipstream is the turbulent air coming off the prop and pushing against the side of the fuselage and vertical stab. Torque is a bit of a factor, but not enough to really affect aircraft performance in any of the jets I've flown.

I have a PDF I can email that has an expanded discussion on this topic if you're interested. This topic, and the factors which affect Vmc, were the core of the ground evaluation before the flight.

[EvilEagle]

Good write-up. I did the same thing at Mobile Downtown. 2 flights then the checkride. Cost me right at $1000 as well. I didn't have to do the sim IMC approach though. (Evaluator said I didn't have to do it since I had already demo'd in another aircraft). And my ground eval was maybe 30 mins. Other than that - painless process. The aircraft I had was a POS, but it was cheap-ish - $220/hour.

[Hacker]

This is what I did mine in; a relatively nice 2000 PA-44.