Iraqi Vipers

[Guest Alarm Rɘd]

Article

Here's how the USAF could make this a not-shitty 365 for Viper IPs: put a CAFTT det in Dohuk, supply a nice apartment, and a car. Send no support personnel over the rank of E-6. Make the detco an O-4. I guarantee there would be volunteers.

[HeloDude]

Article

Here's how the USAF could make this a not-shitty 365 for Viper IPs: put a CAFTT det in Dohuk, supply a nice apartment, and a car. Send no support personnel over the rank of E-6. Make the detco an O-4. I guarantee there would be volunteers.

Why would the Air Force care about making this a 'non-shitty' 365? They haven't cared about all the others they've tasked.

And as for volunteers, again, Big Blue in the end doesn't care if they have volunteers--they'll gladly non vol anybody they can. When I did my 365 2 years ago about 25% or so were non vol'd and with the latest group of guys who just recently left for Iraq or Afghanistan to fly Mi-17's, I'd say 50% to 75% of them were non vol'd.

Also, I met 2-3 fighter guys (O-4 types) that were non vol'd to the CAFTT staff gig, so again, nothing new.

[HossHarris]

I just did that exact gig in Egypt. With very few travel restrictions inside the country and a populace that generally and genuinely like americans it was TOLERABLE. Those conditions don't exist in Iraq, so this type of assignment, while possibly professionally satisfying (maybe), would be miserable. Toro ... any comment?

Edited June 26, 2010 by HossHarris

[nunya]

All I've heard from guys that have done the CAFTT gig is that 99% of the Iraqi students have no business in anything faster or more capable than a Caravan. But hey, if they want to spend money on American exports, then by all means, buy a million!

[Toro]

I just did that exact gig in Egypt. With very few travel restrictions inside the country and a populace that generally and genuinely like americans it was TOLERABLE. Those conditions don't exist in Iraq, so this type of assignment, while possibly professionally satisfying (maybe), would be miserable. Toro ... any comment?

Did the exchange in Saudi - didn't have quite the pad that you had, Hoss. From talking to guys who have flown with the Iraqis, I am positive that the mentality, work ethic, and airmanship throughout much of the Arab population is very similar (which is to say it's poor). The things that made it tolerable were the Americans I was with, our living conditions (not stellar, but above average for what I would have expected), the pay benefits, and getting to choose a follow-on in exchange for volunteering.

And as for volunteers, again, Big Blue in the end doesn't care if they have volunteers--they'll gladly non vol anybody they can.

Right, but if they handle this like they handle the exchange remotes (for guys like Hoss and myself), they will give guys their choice of follow-on for volunteering. If you get non-vol'd, they'll do whatever they want with you.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

All I've heard from guys that have done the CAFTT gig is that 99% of the Iraqi students have no business in anything faster or more capable than a Caravan. But hey, if they want to spend money on American exports, then by all means, buy a million!

To be fair, the younger guys had a different mentality than the older ex-regime pilots. Those older dudes were by-and-large worthless, although a few held the whole thing together, but just barely. The young guys I flew with, however, at least (generally) cared about what they were doing. I just hope they survive their older colleagues, because if they do the IqAF will have a chance. Keep in mind, they won't be the next USAF, not by a mile (or a few thousand miles). But they'll be able to operate fairly safely and do the limited mission they need to perform for their country.

[GovernmentMan]

I'm curious about the supposed quality of these Iraqi pilots. Leading up to Gulf War I, the brass kept warning us that the Iraqi pilots were badasses and how they had whooped up on Iranians for the past 10 years, etc. Obviously, our hardware, TTPs and overall training kicked their asses once Desert Storm kicked off. But still...if they (these "old regime" dudes you referred to) were considered pretty good in their time, what has changed to make them suck these days?

[Guest Hueypilot812]

There's a book out there, published by Air University I think (?? not sure), that discusses the Iran/Iraq war. Granted, it was written a long time ago but it's a pretty fair assessment of a typical Arab/Persian air force. Basically, their air forces are best used to puff up their chest and provide a deterrent rather than an actual fighting force. I found that mentality to be true...they really liked the idea of having iron on the ramp so they could shake their fist in the air and spew a lot of bravado and talk smack, but when it really came down to it, they were, at best, marginally able to carry out any real ops...at least in comparison to the USAF.

An air war between two middle-eastern nations is a bit like watching the math club and the chess club play a game of full-contact football. Someone might win, but it's not pretty to watch...and if either team played a real football team, they'd get crushed.

[bucky60k]

Great opportunity for the Israel Air Force to engage in some Viper on Viper action!

[HeloDude]

I'm curious about the supposed quality of these Iraqi pilots. Leading up to Gulf War I, the brass kept warning us that the Iraqi pilots were badasses and how they had whooped up on Iranians for the past 10 years, etc. Obviously, our hardware, TTPs and overall training kicked their asses once Desert Storm kicked off. But still...if they (these "old regime" dudes you referred to) were considered pretty good in their time, what has changed to make them suck these days?

Dude--nothing has changed...they were never really good.

My take on it after flying with them for a year is that a few of the older heads are pretty decent pilots and can actually somewhat lead their folks...but generally, these guys are few and far between. I had one of them tell me a story of their invasion of Kuwait...somewhat like 120 Mi-17's from Basrah to Kuwait (not very far) and they lost around 30-40 of them due to hitting power lines, hitting each other, being shot down, etc.

Flying to a lot of the Iraqis means they get in the aircraft, start it up (FE does that), and they fly the aircraft from point A to point B (that is if they can flnd B)...and that's about it. Most of them have no concept of mission management, CRM, navigation...you name it. That's what we were there to teach them. But to piggy-back on what HueyPilot said--the key to the Iraqi Air Force is with their younger guys. Most of them speak pretty decent English and are much more motivated to learn 'Western' ways.

I could go on and on, but to get a real idea of how it is, you just need to sit down and talk to someone that's worked with them. Having said all of this, the Iraqis are the nicest people you'll ever meet and I very much enjoyed working with them for a year.

[Radio]

Is it just me or does this post speak to grunts complaining about how soft the Air Force is?

I've seen where HeloDude and HueyPilot had to spend their CAFTT tours...shared rooms, shared cars or lots of walking in the heat/with gear, no access to alcohol, a trip to the nearest USAF base considered a treat and a riskier threat environment for their aircraft. I bet they both volunteered too.

[Guest Alarm Red]

Is it just me or does this post speak to grunts complaining about how soft the Air Force is?

I've seen where HeloDude and HueyPilot had to spend their CAFTT tours...shared rooms, shared cars or lots of walking in the heat/with gear, no access to alcohol, a trip to the nearest USAF base considered a treat and a riskier threat environment for their aircraft. I bet they both volunteered too.

It's just you. Joes generally don't bitch about 'how soft the Air Force is.'

Now that the token 'suck contest' (sts) has been initiated, yes, someone will always 100% have it worse than you. No, bitching about accomodations has nothing to do with that.

Back on topic.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

It wasn't that bad. At least we weren't living in some shitty COP getting shot at every day (and not just with indirect fire). The worst part about the deployment was the length of time stuck in that shithole. While I'll call out the IqAF pilots for being marginal and not possessing much of a work ethic, I've got to admire them for all the shit they put up with, like having their families targeted by insurgents, and just having to live in the middle east. I'm lucky I'm an American. Most Americans don't grasp that simple concept.

[Guest]

I'm lucky I'm an American. Most Americans don't grasp that simple concept.

Amen brother.

[Radio]

It's just you. Joes generally don't bitch about 'how soft the Air Force is.'

Now that the token 'suck contest' (sts) has been initiated, yes, someone will always 100% have it worse than you. No, bitching about accomodations has nothing to do with that.

Back on topic.

Well they certainly do joke about us at least -

“The Marines’ sense of toughness permeates the Corps’ lore as well as its reality.

“To recall an illustrative story, a soldier is trudging through the muck in the midst of a downpour with a 60-pound rucksack on his back. ‘This is tough,’ he thinks to himself.

“Just ahead of him trudges an Army Ranger with an 80-pound pack on his back: ‘This is really tough,’ he thinks.

“And ahead of him is a Marine with a 90-pound pack on. And he thinks to himself, ‘I love how tough this is!’

“Then, of course, 30,000 feet above them, an Air Force pilot flips aside his ponytail — I’m sorry, I don’t know how that got in there, they haven’t had ponytails in a year or two — and looks down at them through his cockpit as he flies over. ‘Boy,’ he radios his wingman, ‘It must be tough down there.’ ”

- David Patraeus

My point wasn’t that CAFTT has been the worst deployment ever, or that you can’t complain about it. My point was I wouldn’t want to be in a bar with a bunch of grunts and hear an AF guy say “I’ll go if they give me a car and an apartment.”

Plus I think HueyPilot had it right when he said the Iraqis “really liked the idea of having iron on the ramp so they could shake their fist in the air and spew a lot of bravado and talk smack”. In the original article posted, you can see the Iraqis are hell bent on getting fighter jets from someone, even if it isn’t Vipers. I don’t think the IqAF leadership would be interested in basing them in the Kurdish part of their country, which might not even be part of Iraq if the locals get their way. They will want them closer to the old Mig guys in Baghdad, so they can get rides and brag more easily.

[OverTQ]

It's just you. Joes generally don't bitch about 'how soft the Air Force is.'

No, really they do. But some of it is from not understanding, some are jealous because they think they AF has it better and some of it is probably warranted. But if it makes you feel any better, they spend more time complaining about the Army.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

No, really they do. But some of it is from not understanding, some are jealous because they think they AF has it better and some of it is probably warranted. But if it makes you feel any better, they spend more time complaining about the Army.

I can remember standing in line to get into the Stryker DFAC and a young SPC turned around and said we had it good since we got paid more to deploy. I asked him what he was talking about because my deployed benefits were the same as his, and he said "you Air Force guys get paid that 'sub-standard quarters allowance'...I heard that's several hundred bucks a month". I set him straight and let him know that there aren't any USAF guys I know of that get that pay, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't the only kid that thought that because I've heard that before. So yes, the Army/Marine dudes do think we have it easy and/or better.

[Guest]

...but I'm pretty sure he wasn't the only kid that thought that because I've heard that before. So yes, the Army/Marine dudes do think we have it easy and/or better.

Yep, and they're right.

I always told guys (officers, not young PFC types) that I didn't join the Air Force because the Army/Navy/USMC wouldn't take me. That shut 'em up quick.

[Guest Alarm Red]

I can remember standing in line to get into the Stryker DFAC and a young SPC turned around and said we had it good since we got paid more to deploy. I asked him what he was talking about because my deployed benefits were the same as his, and he said "you Air Force guys get paid that 'sub-standard quarters allowance'...I heard that's several hundred bucks a month". I set him straight and let him know that there aren't any USAF guys I know of that get that pay, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't the only kid that thought that because I've heard that before. So yes, the Army/Marine dudes do think we have it easy and/or better.

As for the myth of substandard living pay, I won't deny helping propagate that while living with soldiers, but only when directly asked. Usually one of the FSNCOs would set them straight after letting them stew over it for a while though.

As for said SPC, if he was eating at the new Stryker (new in Summer '07) DFAC he has nothing to bitch about; it's far nicer than the Sather, Balad (except maybe DFAC 4), Bagram, al Udeid, or Manas DFACs. Yeah the old Stryker DFAC was shitty though. Best in country though is Marez. I can also guarantee that the majority of soldiers in Iraq presently have better quarters than most pilots at Bagram right now. In the end though it's not a "suck factor" contest because soldiers generally win that one hands down anyway just by having the US ARMY tape on their ACUs.

At any rate, hoping for an apartment and car in a nice, safe part of Iraq for a CAFTT job, while an acknowledged distant fantasy, doesn't mean soldiers living at some shitty JSS or COP (BTDT also) are jealous or scornful.

[slacker]

Yep, and they're right.

I always told guys (officers, not young PFC types) that I didn't join the Air Force because the Army/Navy/USMC wouldn't take me. That shut 'em up quick.

I always say, "We all make our career choices." That shuts them up too.

[OverTQ]

I always say, "We all make our career choices." That shuts them up too.

I would perpetrate the rumors or start new ones.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

As for the myth of substandard living pay, I won't deny helping propagate that while living with soldiers, but only when directly asked. Usually one of the FSNCOs would set them straight after letting them stew over it for a while though.

As for said SPC, if he was eating at the new Stryker (new in Summer '07) DFAC he has nothing to bitch about; it's far nicer than the Sather, Balad (except maybe DFAC 4), Bagram, al Udeid, or Manas DFACs. Yeah the old Stryker DFAC was shitty though. Best in country though is Marez. I can also guarantee that the majority of soldiers in Iraq presently have better quarters than most pilots at Bagram right now. In the end though it's not a "suck factor" contest because soldiers generally win that one hands down anyway just by having the US ARMY tape on their ACUs.

At any rate, hoping for an apartment and car in a nice, safe part of Iraq for a CAFTT job, while an acknowledged distant fantasy, doesn't mean soldiers living at some shitty JSS or COP (BTDT also) are jealous or scornful.

Yeah it was the new DFAC. Chances were that guy was living in a CHU while we still lived in a tent...not that it's really a big deal because we had a pretty good set up...and when Sather started kicking people out of the tents to move into the pods, we resisted until the very last week...those of us that were leaving just left and the 2-3 dudes that stayed had to move. On another note, it always seemed when we had a surge of Army dudes rolling through, our cadillacs turned to shit and things got broken. That spurred the drive to create a T-shirt that said "Army: Why we can't have nice stuff".

Pisses you off when 4 out of 5 shower stalls have busted pipes, missing shower heads, torn-down shower curtains or some other thing wrong with it. All I could think was damn, is it that ing hard to shower without breaking shit? Then I remembered when I went through Army BCT in 1992, and I understood. Didn't like it, but I understood.

[OverTQ]

"Army: Why we can't have nice stuff".

Now that's funny.

[JarheadBoom]

So yes, the Army/Marine dudes do think we have it easy and/or better.

I thought that when I was in the Marines...

I still do.

When AF people find out I'm a former Marine, and they invariably ask "Why did you leave the Marines after 11 years, and join the Air Force?", my preferred answer is "Because I finally got smart."

"Army: Why we can't have nice stuff"

Reminds me of an old saying about the Army...

Lock a young Soldier in a windowless room, with 2 anvils, for 24 hours.

When you return to let him out, one anvil will be broken... and the other will be missing.