Air Force Spending

[B52gator]

I'm going to stir the pot a bit...I went to the airshow in Duluth last weekend and while I had a great time, I couldn't help but think about how much money the AF spends to execute the Thunderbirds' "mission." With all the belt tightening going on around the Air Force, why are things like the Thunderbirds and the God awful Tops in Blue (these guys need to be thrown out the back of a speeding van) still given huge budgets to travel all across the globe? Why not get rid of them? Now I realize this will never happen (public image, PR, blah, blah, blah), but I suspect that most of the rank and file of the AF would agree with me. As an AF guy, the Thunderbirds never made me feel proud to be in the AF...my job and the people I worked with accomplished that. Now I'm not saying that the AF should stop doing airshows, I think the other demo teams are really good and sending a jet or two from the various airframes to an airshow is a "good deal" for the dudes in the unit. I have no idea what the budget is for the Thunderbirds, Tops in Blue, etc, but I imagine it isn't small. Wastefully spending money like this, while there is a drawdown of personnel and allowing aircraft and equipment to age and deteriorate with out adequate replacement. I know these are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to unnecessary spending, but I think I am stating the obvious, or maybe I am just getting bitter in my old age. Thoughts?

[Royal]

I'm going to stir the pot a bit...I went to the airshow in Duluth last weekend and while I had a great time, I couldn't help but think about how much money the AF spends to execute the Thunderbirds' "mission." With all the belt tightening going on around the Air Force, why are things like the Thunderbirds and the God awful Tops in Blue (these guys need to be thrown out the back of a speeding van) still given huge budgets to travel all across the globe? Why not get rid of them? Now I realize this will never happen (public image, PR, blah, blah, blah), but I suspect that most of the rank and file of the AF would agree with me. As an AF guy, the Thunderbirds never made me feel proud to be in the AF...my job and the people I worked with accomplished that. Now I'm not saying that the AF should stop doing airshows, I think the other demo teams are really good and sending a jet or two from the various airframes to an airshow is a "good deal" for the dudes in the unit. I have no idea what the budget is for the Thunderbirds, Tops in Blue, etc, but I imagine it isn't small. Wastefully spending money like this, while there is a drawdown of personnel and allowing aircraft and equipment to age and deteriorate with out adequate replacement. I know these are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to unnecessary spending, but I think I am stating the obvious, or maybe I am just getting bitter in my old age. Thoughts?

You're entitled to bitterness on the subject.

As far as the Tops in Blue are concerned, this is not a budgetary issue; it's an issue of untold embarrassment for the Air Force. I wouldn't be opposed to the AF taking 10 times the amount of funds it costs to run TIB and putting that towards destroying every bit of evidence that TIB ever existed. That would include, but not be limited to, the eradication of human memories. Tax dollars well spent.

[slacker]

As far as the Tops in Blue are concerned, this is not a budgetary issue; it's an issue of untold embarrassment for the Air Force. I wouldn't be opposed to the AF taking 10 times the amount of funds it costs to run TIB and putting that towards destroying every bit of evidence that TIB ever existed. That would include, but not be limited to, the eradication of human memories. Tax dollars well spent.

How about the 5 plasmas in the MPF that have been sitting in their boxes since April? I bet they're still sitting in the same place in another 6 months. There's money well spent. How about the need for a new computer every 30 minutes. Or the giant waste of flying aeromed trainers, can't they just train in a FUT? I mean, if you can teach pilot initial C-130J training sim only, it would seem that you could train aeromeds in a FUT with a few guys shaking it. The list goes on and on...

[sky_king]

Seeing as how the Thunderbirds are a recruiting tool and TIB is a retention tool, they should be treated differently. Hundreds of thousands of people every year watch the Thunderbirds and it probably brings in quite a few airmen. At the very least, it gives an "oooh, aaah" show to the public that is paying for the military.

On the other hand, TIB is worthless. Who really sits in anticipation of the next TIB concert? Many of the concerts are on base and not advertised to civilians. Even if they are open to the public, how many civilians go besides the local high school glee club? The money spent on TIB is more or less wasted on worthless retention.

Kill TIB and keep the TBirds. Now with the AF kicking people out left and right, recruiting isn't the biggest issue. We have enough people to fill the ranks. We need to still focus on quality recruits though.

[Fud]

You're entitled to bitterness on the subject.

2

I also find it interesting with the drawdown that no general officer billets are being force shaped. As far as a money issue, if we stopped using a paper OPR process everytime something needed to be edited, we would save a lot of cash, as well as not replacing office furniture every year, but I know I am already beating a dead horse on this one.

[HoHum]

TIB is a retention tool

Kill TIB and keep the TBirds. Now with the AF kicking people out left and right, recruiting isn't the biggest issue. We have enough people to fill the ranks. We need to still focus on quality recruits though.

This is darkly funny. AFPC probably wants to keep TIB so that people voluntarily leave. However...they're driving away the people that "get shit done"!

[bucky60k]

Shit can the T-Clones unless they change their flight routine. It's been the same for ######ing ever and its boring.

[FUSEPLUG]

Shit can the T-Clones unless they change their flight routine. It's been the same for ######ing ever and its boring.

But remember, they are doing on one engine what the Blue Angels do with two...

[Guest Rubber_Side_Down]

That would include, but not be limited to, the eradication of human memories. Tax dollars well spent.

Can they really do this? If so, I'm signing up as the next Manchurian Candidate. I was forced to see this embarassment of a production a few years ago, and I still haven't been able to scrub it out of my mental roladex.

[BFM this]

But remember, they are doing on one engine what the Blue Angels do with two...

Yes, but true to AF tradition, the t-clones have a cast of thousands lugging how many barney's worth of stuff while the blues have *A* herk...

[Guest Hueypilot812]

Yes, but true to AF tradition, the t-clones have a cast of thousands lugging how many barney's worth of stuff while the blues have *A* herk...

That's because, while I wouldn't fly for the Navy (I don't ever see myself on a damn ship for months at a time), the one thing I do really respect about them is they still have a sliver of the "get it done" attitude that has been generally lost in the USAF. The USAF is all about power point slides on plasmas, nice props on easels, and turning anything into a political production so some people look good. To the USAF, it's about how they look doing it, not whether it gets done. With the Navy, they have facilities that look like shit, airplanes that are ugly and somewhat functioning, but a mindset of "lets get the job done".

The Angels have a great show and if I had my choice I'd watch the Blue Angels every time. The snoozer of a show the TBirds put on is really, really boring.

[slacker]

That's because, while I wouldn't fly for the Navy (I don't ever see myself on a damn ship for months at a time), the one thing I do really respect about them is they still have a sliver of the "get it done" attitude that has been generally lost in the USAF. The USAF is all about power point slides on plasmas, nice props on easels, and turning anything into a political production so some people look good. To the USAF, it's about how they look doing it, not whether it gets done. With the Navy, they have facilities that look like shit, airplanes that are ugly and somewhat functioning, but a mindset of "lets get the job done".

The Angels have a great show and if I had my choice I'd watch the Blue Angels every time. The snoozer of a show the TBirds put on is really, really boring.

2

[Guest]

Scrap the T-clones? Not going to happen. They are an effective recruiting tool with deep roots and support. Get over it.

It is possible the TIB could go but highly unlikely.

[ClearedHot]

2

I also find it interesting with the drawdown that no general officer billets are being force shaped.

Absolutely NOT true. The number of General Officers (and all officers), is prescribed by 10 U.S.C. § 525. that being said, Secretary Gates in a speech last month called for a reduction in the number of senior officers. It is convenient to make broad generalizations, but yours is void of fact.

[juacey]

I just found this today while trying to help my wife find a job. Who hires crappy actors to instruct people on how to do resumes?

[Spoo]

Scrap the T-clones? Not going to happen. They are an effective recruiting tool with deep roots and support. Get over it.

It is possible the TIB could go but highly unlikely.

Spot on - this thread is done. While I agree, the Blue Angels are more entertaining (they have better paint jobs and a damn Herk with Rockets for Christ's sake), the ultimate goal of both teams isn't to dazzle a bunch of military flyers. It's to entertain joe taxpayer and recruit some youngins. Besides, the average airshow attendee doesn't know or care that the T-chickens have been doing the same routine year after year.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Spoo

[Spoo]

But remember, they are doing on one engine what the Blue Angels do with two...

I'm confused. Does this make the T-chicks more impressive or the Blues? Or, does it mean they can't vary up their profile or perform the same maneuvers?

EDIT: My Comp sucks.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Spoo

[FUSEPLUG]

I'm confused. Does this make the T-chicks more impressive or the Blues? Or, does it mean they can't vary up their profile or perform the same maneuvers?

Sorry, I was being completely sarcastic.

[Beaver]

Sorry Spoo, Fat Albert doesn't do the JATO trick anymore.

Link

[Spoo]

Sorry, I was being completely sarcastic.

No worries, apparently my detector doesn't work in the OFF mode.

Sorry Spoo, Fat Albert doesn't do the JATO trick anymore.

Link

Son of a bitch, that sucks.

[xaarman]

The Blue Angels are far more entertaining with the low altitude work (have you seen them skimming the SF bay?) and direct angle maneuvers. The AF is obsessed with high speed passes to pull in the vertical, and fingertip formation rolls 3,000 feet up (which may be harder for the precision involved, but Jon Q. Taxpayer does not know that.)

Add it with the C-130 maneuvers and it's pretty rad.

Anyways I digress. TIB is actually playing here tonight at the Deid, wonder how many people are going to show up.

Edited July 23, 2010 by xaarman

[Guest Raptor08]

I couldn't help but think about how much money the AF spends to execute the Thunderbirds' "mission."

For anyone interested I heard from a high ranking Tbird member that the typical cost to bring them to an airshow runs around 50k if you include every resource and necessity (jet fuel, mx, hotel, food, transportation, etc..). This number can vary depending on the location and mx circumstances, however granted this was about 4-5 years ago so its probably changed since then.

Edited August 3, 2010 by Raptor08

[Champ Kind]

For anyone interested I heard from a high ranking Tbird member that the typical cost to bring them to an airshow runs around 50k if you include every resource and necessity (jet fuel, mx, hotel, food, transportation, etc..). This number can vary depending on the location and mx circumstances, however granted this was about 4-5 years ago so its probably changed since then.

That amount seems a bit on the low side to me, even for 4-5 years ago.

[Guest Alarm Red]

Probably 800 gallons of JP-8 per aircraft per show. Usually three shows if you include practice. Not counting the hop to/from, that's upwards of 14,000 gallons, which is probably pushing the $50K by itself.

How many pounds of gas to get TIB around the country? I doubt they get $3.50 / day either.

[Guest]

For anyone interested I heard from a high ranking Tbird member that the typical cost to bring them to an airshow runs around 50k if you include every resource and necessity (jet fuel, mx, hotel, food, transportation, etc..)

Bullshit. They go through more than $50k in Astroglide per show.