C-17 Down on Elmendorf

[Snooter]

Bump for the two year anniversary, Rest in peace brothers...

[Butters]

At Home in the Sky: Remembering Major Mike Freyholtz

[Coasta]

At Home in the Sky: Remembering Major Mike Freyholtz

Tony's comments spark a lot of thought. I don't know the pulse of AMC anymore, but does this article shed light on current/recent buffoonery?

[Butters]

Tony's comments spark a lot of thought. I don't know the pulse of AMC anymore, but does this article shed light on current/recent buffoonery?

AMC does not have a pulse, yes this article has a lot to do with our recent buffoonery, and thank you for cleaning up some of that buffoonery. Fly safe tomorrow... Oh, and just because you have to fly a jet with holes in it across the country, gear down, unpressurized, does not mean I am buying you a fucking beer next time you are in town.

OK, I will buy you 2 beers and I will let you drive the boat.

[busdriver]

Not to shit on his remembrance, but my understanding is that EM charts do not exist for AMC aircraft, that true?

[Coasta]

AMC does not have a pulse, yes this article has a lot to do with our recent buffoonery, and thank you for cleaning up some of that buffoonery. Fly safe tomorrow... Oh, and just because you have to fly a jet with holes in it across the country, gear down, unpressurized, does not mean I am buying you a ######ing beer next time you are in town.

OK, I will buy you 2 beers and I will let you drive the boat.

Friggin deal! See you Jun 17-21.

Not to shit on his remembrance, but my understanding is that EM charts do not exist for AMC aircraft, that true?

What's an EM chart?

[busdriver]

What's an EM chart?

Thought so. In case you're serious or for those that don't know, a chart that details sustainable angle of bank, turn rate/radius for a given airspeed along with specific excess energy lines denoting climb or descent rates when under or over performing the aircraft. It's the end result of Boyd's energy maneuverability studies.

[Coasta]

Thought so. In case you're serious or for those that don't know, a chart that details sustainable angle of bank, turn rate/radius for a given airspeed along with specific excess energy lines denoting climb or descent rates when under or over performing the aircraft. It's the end result of Boyd's energy maneuverability studies.

Thought I remembered that from somewhere... I forgot my best Beavis voice doesn't propagate into message boards. I still don't care... Mostly because I have 800 engineers telling me what I can't do.

[busdriver]

It's as simple as, prior to executing a planned 60* AOB turn I must achieve XXX airspeed. If you're slow, you don't turn end of story.

[Fuzz]

Thought so. In case you're serious or for those that don't know, a chart that details sustainable angle of bank, turn rate/radius for a given airspeed along with specific excess energy lines denoting climb or descent rates when under or over performing the aircraft. It's the end result of Boyd's energy maneuverability studies.

That's what Betty does, in the HUD you get speed and roll bars based on everything you mentioned, that show you where the stall regions are and as for pitch if you attempt to pitch to put the plane into a stall she'll only let you get so far and then kick to "AOA limiter System" mode which will override your pitch up command and gradually lower the nose to regain airspeed.

[busdriver]

All of that and the dude was still able to over perform the aircraft and HAL didn't save the day? Seems to me knowing before hand would have been better.

[jango220]

The 3-3 for the tanker has EM diagrams in one of the appendices. I don't know if it is the same for the other MAF jets.

[Whitman]

Because everyone wants to roll 60-90 degrees AOB doing AR!

Edited May 29, 2013 by Whitman

[C-21.Pilot]

busdriver,

Yes - there are EM charts in the Dash-1, but more specifically in the FCF T.O. The AFTTP also has some limited numbers.

Knowing the EM charts cold would not have prevented this....recognizing and recovering from the stall indications as taught in UPT would have saved the day. Unfortunately, that communitty (I was a former member) was - up to that point - auto tuned to disregard many of the WACS/CAWS messages as "routine." in addition, per the report, flying the prescribed airshow demo profile which limited to 60 AOB would also have been nice...

[Butters]

All of that and the dude was still able to over perform the aircraft and HAL didn't save the day? Seems to me knowing before hand would have been better.

Yes, he did the one thing the designers never thought someone would do.. change configuration (retracted slats) while low and slow in a high AOB turn. HAL was bitching the entire time, but the crew had become desensitized to the warnings.

[SocialD]

Knowing the EM charts cold would not have prevented this....

Not flying like a jackass would have prevented this whole thing!

[Jughead]

Because everyone wants to roll 60-90 degrees AOB doing AR!

Makes it easier to see the receivers' tail numbers....

[ExBoneOSO]

Because everyone wants to roll 60-90 degrees AOB doing AR!

Those were the days...

[afnav]

Those were the days...

That was out of the syllabus by the time I came through in '02, but the pictures were on the wall everywhere.

[10percenttruth]

Those were the days...

Up 4, back 4

[Rusty Pipes]

During a C-17 Airshow Demo profile is not the best time to declare yourself a test pilot, which is what he essentially did. He was a really good pilot with a great reputation in the community (certainly no Bud Holland as he is often wrongfully compared to), but he should have known better. Not to mention the fact that the several pilots who flew with him NEVER should have let him get away with it. What sucks is that it most likely would have been prevented if just one of those guys (not just the ones killed on that crew) had just said during one of his briefings, "Hey Bro, we don't ever fly the jet like that... why would we do that now?" Knowing the kind of pilot he was I'm betting he may have tried to explain why it was OK, but in the end would probably say, "Yeah, you're probably right." Unfortunately his name and reputation for the most part will always be associated with this crash (and I'd say that a good 90% of this is laid correctly at his feet) and we'll never know why he thought it was OK to fly the jet like he did, but those who were his friends and Squadron mates knew him as a great pilot, a great Dad and a great friend.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

Because everyone wants to roll 60-90 degrees AOB doing AR!

Nah, the tanker only goes to 10 degrees, frequently, for no reason, with no warning, and only after you are about 100k into a 120k onload with a jet that is approaching MGW.

[Azimuth]

Those were the days...

The Whifferdill

[Muscle2002]

Thought so. In case you're serious or for those that don't know, a chart that details sustainable angle of bank, turn rate/radius for a given airspeed along with specific excess energy specific excess power lines denoting climb or descent rates when under or over performing the aircraft. It's the end result of Boyd's energy maneuverability studies.

Picking at nits

[busdriver]

Picking at nits

My only point was if he planned a XX degree angle of bank, he should have also had a required airspeed to meet prior to starting that turn. If that had been done, there never would have been a stall to recover from or at least figured out how much airspeed bleed would be required to maintain that AOB below the sustainable airspeed.