C-17 Down on Elmendorf

[Steve Davies]

I am curious to know how the AF and the guys in the squadron support the families in this sort of situation.

[stract]

Whitman, where are you quoting those stats from?

EDIT: Thanks Steve for the link to the full thing. I missed that somewhere...

[Whitman]

AIB and the edited video...

RIP

Stract, just going off the link to the AIB. Trying to facilitate discussion on this so it never happens again. Hate to see this.....

[Steve Davies]

Stract

The full AIB is not linked to (at least that I can find), but has been released: https://www.pacaf.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-101210-079.pdf

What was the point of having the MLM on the practise? It is not explicitly explained in the AIB, and since it does explicitly state that he was seated in the load master seat (and not on the flight deck), it seems like a valid question.

[Coasta]

Stract

The full AIB is not linked to (at least that I can find), but has been released: https://www.pacaf.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-101210-079.pdf

What was the point of having the MLM on the practise? It is not explicitly explained in the AIB, and since it does explicitly state that he was seated in the load master seat (and not on the flight deck), it seems like a valid question.

Steve,

There is a LM on all C-17 flights. They are an integral part of the crew and in almost all of our emergency procedures.

[stract]

Steve,

I'm guessing the LM is part of the minimum crew requirements, and is thus required to be onboard for all flights.

EDIT: confirmed in the 11-2C-17v3

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

Can some of you C-17 guys shed some light on this part? This was the final right turn as they were completing the 80/260 reversal. Seems a little odd to use FULL right rudder in a jet. Did the board rule out hard over rudder or uncommanded rudder deflection?

if you watch the video you can see the pilot used full LEFT rudder to initiate the 80 degree turn, and then used right rudder to initiate the right turn. As for the "why", probably to roll the jet even faster, as the rudder will increase your roll rate, and then holding the rudder in to skid around the turn to keep it tighter. Unfortunately in this situation the rudder also increased the sweep of the right wing relative to the airflow over the jet, further increasing the stall speed of that wing. The rudder didn't drive them into the ground, but flying the jet uncoordinated like that contributed to the wing stalling and the subsequent crash.

[BigFreddie]

Everyone's hit on the important points in this mishap. Rudder, slats, speeds... I honestly believe it started when he over rotated and was slow on the climbout - you should be pestering your local safety guys to see the full report. It applies to every airplane out there...

The CRM out of this is going to be nothing like the CRM that will come from the 4 engine flame out in Pakistan. That will be very, very interesting to see and read when it comes out. Nothing like having your worse flying experience ever caught on HD video for the world to see.

BF

[Guest Hueypilot812]

Edited...disregard, didn't realize the AIB was released. Still, be very careful not to release stuff that's in the SIB but not necessarily in the AIB.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Hueypilot812

[addict]

Stract

The full AIB is not linked to (at least that I can find), but has been released: https://www.pacaf.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-101210-079.pdf

What was the point of having the MLM on the practise? It is not explicitly explained in the AIB, and since it does explicitly state that he was seated in the load master seat (and not on the flight deck), it seems like a valid question.

In this case, the aircraft performs a landing and then transitions to a backing. The loadmaster opens up the troop door to clear aft. That is why he was seated at the aft right troop door.

Edited December 11, 2010 by addict

[BQZip01]

Everyone's hit on the important points in this mishap. Rudder, slats, speeds... I honestly believe it started when he over rotated and was slow on the climbout - you should be pestering your local safety guys to see the full report. It applies to every airplane out there...

The CRM out of this is going to be nothing like the CRM that will come from the 4 engine flame out in Pakistan. That will be very, very interesting to see and read when it comes out. Nothing like having your worse flying experience ever caught on HD video for the world to see.

BF

Link to said video?

[Guest]

I suggest shutting the conversation down.

[Butters]

Link to said video?

There is no link the 4 engine flameout video. SIB is still in progress.

[abmwaldo]

Dec 11 Anchorage Daily News article

[ClearedHot]

I suggest shutting the conversation down.

Done.

WTF people...really....

[ClearedHot]

Dudes/Dudettes,

Topic back open for discussion that is within the proper bounds of the released AIB.

Discussing/comparing/mentioning items in the SIB will NOT be tolerated on this forum.

We all want to learn to prevent future loss of life, but do so within legal limits and with some common sense in mind.

[ol-IEWO]

It would have taken THOUSANDS of feet required to recover the jet.

Chuck

In 1968 I was in a B-52H that stalled at FL430 and started flying again at 17,000, that was a 26,000 foot recovery. We did not bend the airframe but did pop a few sucker doors on one of the TF-33's. Due the cost of repair it was treated as an accident. I believe it was the only B-52 ever to be recovered from a stall.

This was not caused by an overly aggressive pilot. There was a series of events that led up to an error resulting in the maximum bank angle being exceeded. This was long before the crash at Fairchild AFB.

[Whitman]

In 1968 I was in a B-52H that stalled at FL430 and started flying again at 17,000, that was a 26,000 foot recovery. We did not bend the airframe but did pop a few sucker doors on one of the TF-33's. Due the cost of repair it was treated as an accident. I believe it was the only B-52 ever to be recovered from a stall.

This was not caused by an overly aggressive pilot. There was a series of events that led up to an error resulting in the maximum bank angle being exceeded. This was long before the crash at Fairchild AFB.

Wow, that sounds like a terrifying experience. What led up to that stall?

[BQZip01]

Wow, that sounds like a terrifying experience. What led up to that stall?

2!

Edited December 13, 2010 by BQZip01

[StoleIt]

In 1968 I was in a B-52H that stalled at FL430 and started flying again at 17,000, that was a 26,000 foot recovery. We did not bend the airframe but did pop a few sucker doors on one of the TF-33's. Due the cost of repair it was treated as an accident. I believe it was the only B-52 ever to be recovered from a stall.

This was not caused by an overly aggressive pilot. There was a series of events that led up to an error resulting in the maximum bank angle being exceeded. This was long before the crash at Fairchild AFB.

Holy crap. My hands would have been twitching on the handle at that point.

[ol-IEWO]

Holy crap. My hands would have been twitching on the handle at that point.

Here is what I recall of the event. The navigator had just completed the navigation portion of the mission and we were in a timing triangle. The timing triangle allowed the Nav to make up or lose time. (SAC demanded that the aircraft be at every control point on time; seconds mattered.) We had a control point at FL 430 as the entry for a low level route (Kenora Express for any old SAC guys). The Aircraft Commander was out of his seat offloading some coffee at the urinal; once we entered the route neither pilot was expected to leave their seat.

The aircraft was on autopilot, sequence of events:

Chicago Center gave the copilot a frequency to contact Minneapolis Center,

No response from Minneapolis;

back to Chicago,

Nav tells the copilot to expedite the turn,

Copilot increases the rate of turn using autopilot,

Still no response from Chicago,

Back to Minneapolis,

No response,

Nav tells copilot to expedite the turn some more,

Copilot increases the bank.

Copilot goes to Guard Channel and requests either Chicago or Minneapolis for a frequency.

(Pilot back in seat by now and strapping in)

No response from either Center.

About this time I felt a vibration begin that was similar to the tail guns firing; no Gunner in seat, Hmmm….something is wrong...

That was the start of the stall.

Nav says to copilot: you're past the heading, come back to …….

Pilot says: Nav we have a problem up here.

I look over at Gunner's seat and now see Gunner fully strapped in with helmet visor down, hands on ejection handles.

Radar Nav (bombardier) advises the pilots of loss of altitude.

Pilot says: I know, and then he makes the first of several Maydays on Guard. Again no answer.

Radar Nav starts counting off altitudes. (Being trained professional aviators, every word was said in a matter of fact manner, no panic, no screeching voices.)

Pilot tells me to make a Mayday on a SAC monitored HF channel. No response to my Mayday.

At about 28,000 feet, the Radar Nav says: Pilot, I think we should start thinking about getting out. (Note that the word eject was not said)

Pilot says: I understand, standby.

Radar Nav still calling off altitudes. That was good because the Gunner and I did not have an altimeter.

After the 18,000 foot call by the Radar Nav, the pilots recovered the aircraft.

Now Center was talking to us and gave us clearance to altitude for RTB.

Only after we recovered and after I made a report to SAC on HF did some one respond saying they heard my Mayday.

That's it as I remember it. Some place I have an explanation of why so much altitude was lost in the recovery. The aerodynamics of the B-52 were a major factor and not pilot technique or procedures.

[Bergman]

Good story, IEWO. There seemed to be an awful lot of worrying about mayday calls and not enough worrying about recovering from a stall. Just sayin'. Also, life is so much simpler when you have the option to "step out of the jet" and send it back to the taxpayers, isn't it? :)

[Skitzo]

IEWO, great story!

[BQZip01]

IEWO, great story!

2!!!!

Good story, IEWO. There seemed to be an awful lot of worrying about mayday calls and not enough worrying about recovering from a stall. Just sayin'.

Well, there are 3 guys who aren't doing anything and one is only making altitude calls. There were also several B-52 crews that died due to exposure. Making a mayday call if you aren't doing anything else seems apropos, especially in a remote area with bad weather.

just sayin'

[Bergman]

There were also several B-52 crews that died due to exposure. Making a mayday call if you aren't doing anything else seems apropos, especially in a remote area with bad weather.

just sayin'

Fair enough!