Luke/Holloman aircraft changes

[MD]

Luke to pick up the F-35. Holloman to lose their new F-22 mission and gain 2 F-16 sqds, don't know from where they're coming though.

https://www.kpho.com/news/24442007/detail.html

https://www.holloman.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123215576

[SocialD]

Luke to pick up the F-35. Holloman to lose their new F-22 mission and gain 2 F-16 sqds, don't know from where they're coming though.

https://www.kpho.com/news/24442007/detail.html

https://www.holloman.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123215576

Wow, that didn't take long. Everyone knows you can't put the F-15 or the F-22 in a $hitty location! Sucks for the future 16 bubbas, Phoenix is a great town. Not sure about what kind for ranges they have out at Holloman but it's hard to beat the BMGR.

[Guest Raptor08]

Wow, that didn't take long. Everyone knows you can't put the F-15 or the F-22 in a $hitty location! Sucks for the future 16 bubbas, Phoenix is a great town. Not sure about what kind for ranges they have out at Holloman but it's hard to beat the BMGR.

Luke had to pick up the Lightning II otherwise it was at a huge risk of being Brac'd once the Vipers had been retired. There are a lot of people in the area that are trying to have it demolished for public Real Estate so this was a big save for them.

[Dead Last]

Wow, that didn't take long. Everyone knows you can't put the F-15 or the F-22 in a $hitty location! Sucks for the future 16 bubbas, Phoenix is a great town. Not sure about what kind for ranges they have out at Holloman but it's hard to beat the BMGR.

AFSOC should have moved to Holloman(MUCH better than Cannon) instead of Cannon and 22's should have been at Cannon, that way when the 22s leave the base would shut down for good...

cheers

[MD]

Wow, that didn't take long. Everyone knows you can't put the F-15 or the F-22 in a $hitty location! Sucks for the future 16 bubbas, Phoenix is a great town. Not sure about what kind for ranges they have out at Holloman but it's hard to beat the BMGR.

Holloman has lots of range real-estate, with the Red Rio, Oscura, and McGregor ranges, as well as tons of acreage available from the WSMR. Same types of overall bombing restrictions that the BMGR has, so they're pretty much the same, more or less. If you include the west side of BMGR that the USMC owns, then I believe that the BMGR is bigger overall.

On another note, it seems the 150th FW F-16s should be ceasing flying ops soon. Only about 4 jets on their ramp, and still haven't heard a word on what they'll be doing flying-wise, if anything. Their MX will be working with the 58th SOW here, rumor has it, but nothing announced for the Ops side yet that I've seen.

Edited July 30, 2010 by MD

[SocialD]

Luke had to pick up the Lightning II otherwise it was at a huge risk of being Brac'd once the Vipers had been retired. There are a lot of people in the area that are trying to have it demolished for public Real Estate so this was a big save for them.

I am well aware of d-bags around the base trying to shut it down. Heard about it all the time going through the B-Course, they are not happy about the 35 being based there. I am very glad Luke picked up the F-35 mission, that base would be a terrible loss...great ranges, great airspace and a great town! My comments were more about the fact that it didn't surprise me that the 22 is leaving Holloman, you can't have 22's (of 15s) in a $hitty location.

AFSOC should have moved to Holloman(MUCH better than Cannon) instead of Cannon and 22's should have been at Cannon, that way when the 22s leave the base would shut down for good...

cheers

No that is a forward thinker.

Holloman has lots of range real-estate, with the Red Rio, Oscura, and McGregor ranges, as well as tons of acreage available from the WSMR. Same types of overall bombing restrictions that the BMGR has, so they're pretty much the same, more or less. If you include the west side of BMGR that the USMC owns, then I believe that the BMGR is bigger overall.

That's good to hear!

Edited July 30, 2010 by SocialD

[MD]

Wow, that didn't take long. Everyone knows you can't put the F-15 or the F-22 in a $hitty location!

Not completely true. I mean, Holloman was an A-model Eagle wing for years prior to the 117s taking over in '92. And before that, it was an F-4 wing since the early '70. So the Eagle guys have had their crappy locations.

I am well aware of d-bags around the base trying to shut it down. Heard about it all the time going through the B-Course, they are not happy about the 35 being based there. I am very glad Luke picked up the F-35 mission, that base would be a terrible loss...great ranges, great airspace and a great town!

Am from PHX, and to tell you the truth, Luke may be nice, but it has tons of encroachment problems, noise problems, etc. At one time, it was in the middle of nowhere, just as Willie was. But with progress, homes, etc moved out that direction. And like every other GA airport, its tough to fight to keep bases open, especially one with the issues Luke has.

Even though this announcement has been made, there still is the Environmental Impact Statement that has to be completed, so it's not totally a done deal yet. I hope it can be, but the EIS for Luke, noise-wise, may be worse than the one that was completed for Eglin, if only for the geography

[SocialD]

Not completely true. I mean, Holloman was an A-model Eagle wing for years prior to the 117s taking over in '92. And before that, it was an F-4 wing since the early '70. So the Eagle guys have had their crappy locations.

Ok so they had one....haha! No Korea, and no remote, sounds like a pretty good deal. Let's not even talk about the cush TDY's they get (pure jealousy, well minus the whole not ever going to combat part). I really have no dog in this fight, it's just funny to see the disparity.

Am from PHX, and to tell you the truth, Luke may be nice, but it has tons of encroachment problems, noise problems, etc. At one time, it was in the middle of nowhere, just as Willie was. But with progress, homes, etc moved out that direction. And like every other GA airport, its tough to fight to keep bases open, especially one with the issues Luke has.

Even though this announcement has been made, there still is the Environmental Impact Statement that has to be completed, so it's not totally a done deal yet. I hope it can be, but the EIS for Luke, noise-wise, may be worse than the one that was completed for Eglin, if only for the geography

Ya, well eventually the government is going to have to say tough $hit. You bought a house near an Air Force base, guess what, it's going to be a little noisy from time to time!!! If your house was there before Luke, then you have a valid argument, in not, Fu@k off! If we shut down every base that had these issues we wouldn't have any left, besides Holloman, Cannon and Creech. Hell doesn't Nellis have that issue. The bigger issue here is losing access to a great training range down in the BMGR.

What was even more amazing was that one of the biggest b!tches out there was some retired AF MSgt. He would call up and start off with how he was in the AF for 25 years and he knew how our operations were, and those planes are "hotdogging." Turns out it was just a transient 2 ship, not familiar with the local pattern. They flew over a town there we tried to avoid as part of our pattern procedures.

But it's all a pipe dream the military will continue to kiss the locals a$$. Eventually, some politician will decide to take up the issue to further his career and eventually get it closed. Can't even imagine the fallout, if we ever put another jet into a neighborhood again.

Edited July 31, 2010 by SocialD

[ViperStud]

Am from PHX, and to tell you the truth, Luke may be nice, but it has tons of encroachment problems, noise problems, etc. At one time, it was in the middle of nowhere, just as Willie was. But with progress, homes, etc moved out that direction. And like every other GA airport, its tough to fight to keep bases open, especially one with the issues Luke has.

Even though this announcement has been made, there still is the Environmental Impact Statement that has to be completed, so it's not totally a done deal yet. I hope it can be, but the EIS for Luke, noise-wise, may be worse than the one that was completed for Eglin, if only for the geography

Yes and no. They've done a decent job setting land aside off the end of 03, and it's pretty bare to the south (we take off to the south 99% of the time). The traffic pattern is to the west of the field, where it's not very populated. When I've been around base in uniform I've had people come up to me all the time to say they hope Luke stays here. Some morons decided to build a housing development in the dry riverbed that we fly up for st-ins, but aside from that it hasn't changed much in the 6 years from my training to my assignment there now. More houses, yes. People wanting us gone, not so much.

All the noise is being made by one POS town (El Mirage) that is locked in all around by other municipalities. The only option they have to sprawl out is if they can get their hands on land that had been set aside for encrochment prevention. More El Mirage would mean more cars on cinderblocks, so they haven't been too successful so far. The BMGR is too much of an asset to move away from; I can't see Luke going anywhere.

[MD]

Ya, well eventually the government is going to have to say tough $hit. You bought a house near an Air Force base, guess what, it's going to be a little noisy from time to time!!! If your house was there before Luke, then you have a valid argument, in not, Fu@k off! If we shut down every base that had these issues we wouldn't have any left, besides Holloman, Cannon and Creech. Hell doesn't Nellis have that issue. The bigger issue here is losing access to a great training range down in the BMGR.

Unfortunately, the AF can't just say eff-off to the local population, no matter how stupid or asinine they're acting. I agree, a little due diligence goes a long way insofar as buying a home near an airport or air base. But in today's society of "it's not whether you win or lose, but how you place the blame", people never take responsibility for their own actions.

What was even more amazing was that one of the biggest b!tches out there was some retired AF MSgt. He would call up and start off with how he was in the AF for 25 years and he knew how our operations were, and those planes are "hotdogging." Turns out it was just a transient 2 ship, not familiar with the local pattern. They flew over a town there we tried to avoid as part of our pattern procedures.

Oddly enough, its normally former/retired military who are some of the biggest complainers of aircraft noise.

But it's all a pipe dream the military will continue to kiss the locals a$$. Eventually, some politician will decide to take up the issue to further his career and eventually get it closed. Can't even imagine the fallout, if we ever put another jet into a neighborhood again.

The military doesn't really have a choice. They work for the public. Now, a good Congressperson could/should take up the cause and essentially lay the smack down on the nitwits constantly complaining, but that won't happen because he doesn't want to sacrifice votes.

[MD]

Yes and no. They've done a decent job setting land aside off the end of 03, and it's pretty bare to the south (we take off to the south 99% of the time). The traffic pattern is to the west of the field, where it's not very populated. When I've been around base in uniform I've had people come up to me all the time to say they hope Luke stays here. Some morons decided to build a housing development in the dry riverbed that we fly up for st-ins, but aside from that it hasn't changed much in the 6 years from my training to my assignment there now. More houses, yes. People wanting us gone, not so much.

All the noise is being made by one POS town (El Mirage) that is locked in all around by other municipalities. The only option they have to sprawl out is if they can get their hands on land that had been set aside for encrochment prevention. More El Mirage would mean more cars on cinderblocks, so they haven't been too successful so far. The BMGR is too much of an asset to move away from; I can't see Luke going anywhere.

Problem is, I can easily see Luke going away.......not disappearing, but very possibly that relocation option to expanding Gila Bend and making it the new Luke. Hell, that'd make takeoff to Range 3/ETAC about 2 minutes. Flew out of there a number of times in the late '90s when I was DM based, so I'm familiar with the pattern and restrictions.

Luke is just one of those bases where the noise problems keep getting worse, and none of it is the base's doing or fault at all, its just progress moving that way. Hell, I remember when there was nothing across the street from the south gate (the one to the former 944th), and was surprised to see a new developement there even, about 8 or so years ago. BMGR is indeed an asset, but that doesn't mean the base can't be moved.....stranger things have happened. And insofar as political muscle, even then-Senators McCain and DeConcini couldn't keep Willie open, what with the problems it had airspace-wise, along with a general draw-down at the time. If I'm not mistaken, theres still a moratorium on building homes around Luke, and if so, I hope it stays and doesn't get overruled by politicos who are salivating over the value of the land the base sits on. Just don't delude yourself into thinking that Luke, or any base for that matter, just "couldn't go anywhere, or get closed". Sadly, they have, and do.

[pbar]

There was a retired MX NCO who decided to live in a trailer park right off the north of the Dyess runway and then called constantly to complain about the noise. He actually made enough threats that the FBI paid him a visit. WTF was he thinking? Living a mile off the end of a B-1/C-130 runway in a trailer home wasn't gonna be loud!?!

Edited July 31, 2010 by pbar

[MD]

There was a retired MX NCO who decided to live in a trailer park right off the north of the Dyess runway and then called constantly to complain about the noise. He actually made enough threats that the FBI paid him a visit. WTF was he thinking? Living a mile off the end of a B-1/C-130 runway in a trailer home wasn't gonna be loud!?!

Agree. Like I said, some of the worst noise complainers I've come across are former or retired military, oftentimes from the very base they decide to live next to and then complain! Amazing.....

[ViperStud]

Problem is, I can easily see Luke going away.......not disappearing, but very possibly that relocation option to expanding Gila Bend and making it the new Luke. Hell, that'd make takeoff to Range 3/ETAC about 2 minutes. Flew out of there a number of times in the late '90s when I was DM based, so I'm familiar with the pattern and restrictions.

Luke is just one of those bases where the noise problems keep getting worse, and none of it is the base's doing or fault at all, its just progress moving that way. Hell, I remember when there was nothing across the street from the south gate (the one to the former 944th), and was surprised to see a new developement there even, about 8 or so years ago. BMGR is indeed an asset, but that doesn't mean the base can't be moved.....stranger things have happened. And insofar as political muscle, even then-Senators McCain and DeConcini couldn't keep Willie open, what with the problems it had airspace-wise, along with a general draw-down at the time. If I'm not mistaken, theres still a moratorium on building homes around Luke, and if so, I hope it stays and doesn't get overruled by politicos who are salivating over the value of the land the base sits on. Just don't delude yourself into thinking that Luke, or any base for that matter, just "couldn't go anywhere, or get closed". Sadly, they have, and do.

I just don't see the wholesale problems you are alluding to. I have been there a few years, ended up marrying a PHX native and plan on settling in the Valley eventually, so it's not like I live in some Litchfield Park bubble. Even the linked article has the Peoria mayor talking about how important Luke is to the local economy. Those sentiments far outweigh the complaints, at least for now. It'll be interesting to see what the EIS comes up with since I'm sure they will be looking at future concerns, not just present ones.

Gotta be careful what they ask for too: people bitched and Willie got closed, so now it's a commercial airport that a lot of regionals use. There are far more noise complaints now that they fly ~24 hr ops, not a relatively compact flying window. They closed the base and it got worse. If you think they're just going to turn Luke into a Super Target, think again. Gila bend is a runway and some double-wides; I've diverted there recently. The bill for turning GBN into Luke II will not be cheap; that's not a clean kill either.

I'm biased, sure, but things will have to get a lot worse before the relatively isolated (ghetto El Mirage) complaining is enough to close the place.

Edited July 31, 2010 by ViperStud

[MD]

Gotta be careful what they ask for too: people bitched and Willie got closed, so now it's a commercial airport that a lot of regionals use. There are far more noise complaints now that they fly ~24 hr ops, not a relatively compact flying window. They closed the base and it got worse. If you think they're just going to turn Luke into a Super Target, think again. Gila bend is a runway and some double-wides; I've diverted there recently. The bill for turning GBN into Luke II will not be cheap; that's not a clean kill either.

What killed Willie were moreso operational factors than any sort of public complaining. Back in '93, Willie was still in the middle of nowhere, more or less, in the SE valley. Having to travel nearly 100 miles to get to the MOA left little time to get any training done, and the expansion of PHX to a TCA (Class B) didn't help. Probably didn't help either that it was a UPT base that was actually in a nice geographic area. Granted now, people are complaining more and more about noise from that place, yet I guarantee their homes and businesses are far newer than the airport, which has obviously been there longer.

Of course GBN isn't any kind of done deal, it's just an option that has been being seriously considered at times. Not cheap at all, and yes GBN is small (used to spend a few days a month there, when FACing on the ranges), but there has been serious talk about it, even with the $$$ we both know it would cost. It's not what I think about whether it can be done or not, it's whats been considered in the past, before you were ever based there. But hey, thats politics for you.....government will step over a dollar to pick up a dime. The EIS will indeed be interesting, especially with the purported noise signature of the F-35, and I think that will be the chief complaint of detractors. But there will have to be some serious determination of a few things: 1. When a base gets closed, these days (post BRAC '88), it's gone for good. Its not reopening as a base. So better be able to live that as a permanent solution, and better insure that it truly isn't needed anymore for national defense. 2. As you mention, when a base closes and becomes a civil airport, it may become busier, operations or hours-wise, than when it was a mil base before. 3. Shouldn't have to be a consideration, but economic impact always becomes one: what will the impact be of a closure? All these have to be carefully considered and weighed

I'm biased, sure, but things will have to get a lot worse before the relatively isolated (ghetto El Mirage) complaining is enough to close the place.

Thats what I mean, and what I see from many of my cohorts in the "my base can never be closed" crowd. Their biasness clouds them into a false sense of security and false sense of importance. Sure, civilian-wise, there are people who like Luke and understand it's importance and contribution. Then there are people who only like the $$$ it brings to the local community, but could care less about anything else. And there are people who wish it wasn't there at all. And then there's every feeling and interest in-between. Things don't have to get alot worse, they get worse almost daily for bases that suffer from encroachment, even though that encroachment was not at all of the base's doing. And thats an unfortunate reality.

[Danny Noonin]

Ok so they had one....haha! No Korea, and no remote

Iceland was a remote. Saudi still is a remote.

[ViperStud]

Iceland was a remote. Saudi still is a remote.

Two dudes in tax-free Saudi (essentially an exchange), living in cush villas and being treated like a prince, does not equal three squadrons at Korea. I heard Iceland sucks too. Even an eagle dude could pull wool (the female kind) there. Not bitching about Korea, but don't even try to call Iceland or two dudes in Saudi "bad" deals.

Edit: grammar ain't good

Edited July 31, 2010 by ViperStud

[scoobs]

When is the Viper FTU suppose to cease operations?

[VL-16]

When is the Viper FTU suppose to cease operations?

2

[Danny Noonin]

Two dudes in tax-free Saudi (essentially an exchange), living in cush villas and being treated like a prince, does not equal three squadrons at Korea.

I never compared 3 squadrons to 5 flying remote billets. You did. You said there were no Eagle remotes. I pointed out the inaccuracy of that statement. Quit being a woman and trying to read into things.

And are you fuking shtting me? A remote to Saudi is living the good life? What planet are you living on? Have you ever been to that country? Living in a cinder block "villa" in the middle of the 120 deg desert, with no other bros around, surrounded by people who hate you, flying jets maintained by saudis, in a formation filled with saudis? Awesome. Sign me up. Oh wait, they did.

[ViperStud]

I never compared 3 squadrons to 5 flying remote billets. You did. You said there were no Eagle remotes. I pointed out the inaccuracy of that statement. Quit being a woman and trying to read into things.

And are you fuking shtting me? A remote to Saudi is living the good life? What planet are you living on? Have you ever been to that country? Living in a cinder block "villa" in the middle of the 120 deg desert, with no other bros around, surrounded by people who hate you, flying jets maintained by saudis, in a formation filled with saudis? Awesome. Sign me up. Oh wait, they did.

Moron, I never said there are no Eagle remotes, that was someone else (SocialD). Quit being a woman and misreading things.

I shit you not, I write this response from a "cinder block villa in the middle of the 120 deg desert" in Saudi Arabia. This place is a well-kept secret. I have several Saudi "bros" that want nothing more than for me to have a favorable opinion of their country. I've been invited on several occasions into homes of "people who hate me" and treated very well. Baby camel is some good shit. If you were treated like crap over here, you must be the same kind of dipshit in person that you are on the Internets. The flying part, that's probably valid and I will defer to your experience; mine is a non-flying gig.

Duly noted, Eagles have remotes. Thanks for straightening that up. FYI I don't think Mudhens were being grouped into the "Eagle Mafia" SocialD was referring to. You guys have deloyed plenty, and contributed a lot of firepower. Thanks and keep up the good work. I think he was referring to the LGPOS, which has done neither.

Back on track: although I hate to admit it, it could make sense to move the Vipers to Holloman if there is not enough ramp/range for them and the JSF. Sucks to lose Luke as Viper base, but so be it. What happened with the Raptors up there? Did they spread the fleet out so much and, when they turned off the production lines early, they realized they needed to consolidate them better?

[Danny Noonin]

I never said there are no Eagle remotes, that was someone else (SocialD).

Valid. Except for the moron and the woman parts. My bad on the rest.

If you're having a good time, then good on you. You're the second person I've ever heard of that hasn't despised that place.

As for the craptors, yes. They realized with limited production it was inefficient to spread them out so much, sts. They are basically consolidating jets in fewer places and upping the PAAs.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Danny Noonin

[Stitch]

There was a retired MX NCO who decided to live in a trailer park right off the north of the Dyess runway and then called constantly to complain about the noise. He actually made enough threats that the FBI paid him a visit. WTF was he thinking? Living a mile off the end of a B-1/C-130 runway in a trailer home wasn't gonna be loud!?!

What a total D-Bag! As a retired MX SNCO myself I miss the $hit out of jet noise! As far as I'm concerned, boys (and girls) make all the f*cking noise you want.

As a consolation prize I do live under the downwind for a small private airport; weekends are filled with -172s and J-3's working the pattern. Not even close to being the same, but they're still airplanes none the less. I'll take what I can get.

EDIT: for grammar.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Stitch

[VL-16]

Does anyone familiar with the situation have any details surrounding the timeline for the transfer?

[Guest Raptor08]

Does anyone familiar with the situation have any details surrounding the timeline for the transfer?

Coming from an AGE mechanic stationed there, Holloman is losing their Raptors in 2012 so they can expect to see Vipers and Lightning II's within a few years after.