100 Missions Afghanistan patch

[Hacker]

What sets me off about this patch is the notion that dudes in your community who know better continue to further the poisonous mentality that OEF missions are a “joke,” despite them routinely having issues employing effectively, and especially in light of these major tragedies.

If a dude is wearing the patch to celebrate a milestone, ...fine, fair enough. I think it’s extraordinarily lame to have to edify your life by broadcasting your accomplishments like that, but whatever. …But if he's wearing it to make fun of the monotony of OEF and thus advertise his institutionalized complacency, then I can only pray that that asshole never logs another second over Afghanistan.

You're able to glean all of this from a patch you saw someone wear?

Yeah, that's perspective all right -- a completely asinine one.

I don't know what burr got under your saddle on this one, but you're taking three completely separate issues and trying to roll them all into one "Strike Eagles suck in OEF" thought, and it just doesn't have traction. Your entire underlying supposition that backs your posts in this thread is begging the question anyhow. Look, every bit of time I've spent in OEF I've seen nothing but a good act from my airframe. Mistakes? Yes. Areas where it could have done better? Yes. Clown act? No. In general I've seen exactly the same performance out of every other airframe doing the business over there including yours. Same occasional very inefficient use of firepower, same occasional low SA or stupid comm...but in general, a good act. Have there been any that have made the news? Well, yes, actually there have...but I'm not trying to mud sling because I realize that I don't know jack about the A-10 and I'm not qualified in any way to comment on the TTPs or competency of the guys who fly it. My assumption is that they're doing the best job they can based on their own capes and TTPs, even if it looks weird from my perspective in my jet.

If there's anything I learned from my trip through AETC flying IFF it's that every jet raises pilots who are phenomenally biased toward their own airframe and just as amazingly ignorant about other airframes. Everyone thinks that "their way" is the only way, and that other methods of skinning cats are not only incorrect but retarded to boot. After flying, teaching, bar stories, etc, with guys from those other airframes, it was obvious that a lot of those negative opinions I had about other airframes were really because I had no idea what their airframe had in terms of capabilities and how those capes impacted their TTPs. What appeared stupid to me as an outsider actually made a lot of sense once I understood that.

If you think the patch is retarded, fine...say so, but don't drag the entire community into the mix. If you think you know something about how the frat could have been prevented, and how it's related to some TTP that is flawed or if you know something about the performance of the crew on that night, then let's talk about that instead of mixing it in with a goddamn patch. Same goes for the two kids who morted practicing night strafe. If you have some experience in this airframe, and know something about how it's employed, and have an idea about how to do it better, then say so. The fact is, NEITHER of those events had ANYTHING to do with some supposed lax attitude about OEF among the F-15E community that you've surmised based on a dude's patch and the discussion on this forum.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Hacker

[mudhen69]

Not this shit again... I could search and link to a better explanation but I'll just type it here. You can get awarded the BSM for service, achievement (I think), and valor. BSM(V) is for putting it all out there in combat, during a single event, but not to the Silver Star level (of which there is only valor). BSM for service is, per the reg, the same recognition as required for a Meritorious Service Medal except for duties performed in a combat area. So if a squadron commander, in any capacity while drawing hostile fire pay, would warrant a MSM for same duties back at homeplate, the correct decoration is the BSM.

By confusing the two you are disrespecting the valorous efforts of those who have been awarded a BSM(V). At the same time, if you are walking around thinking that every E7+ or O5+ with a BSM (and there are many) are shoeclerks with underserved decs, then you are also missing the point.

Consider yourself educated.

Actually, you can get the Bronze Star for "Heroic or Meritorious Achievement" (ref back of medal). The standard medal for being killed while deployed is a BSM with or without a valor device.

BL: Not everyone who gets killed in action gets a BSM(V), (whether they should or not is a different arguement). If I'm walking around oblivious and get shot by a sniper, I am not really doing anything heroic. I would probably just get a BSM with out a V to recognize my meritorious service while deployed. Different story if I knew of the sniper threat, exposed my self to help another and then got shot.

SrA Yelner: BSM (no valor device) for being killed as a result of an IED/ambush attack. (Bagram DFAC named after him, citation outside on a plaque)

Capts McDowell and Gramith: BSM (no valor device) killed in a aircraft mishap in Afghanistan last summer

Several of my friends from high school and college who went door to door in Bagdhad: BSM (no valor device)

All heroes in my book. though same medal as the FSS commander. BSM no V. Consider yourself educated.

If a dude is wearing the patch to celebrate a milestone, ...fine, fair enough. I think it’s extraordinarily lame to have to edify your life by broadcasting your accomplishments like that, but whatever. …But if he's wearing it to make fun of the monotony of OEF and thus advertise his institutionalized complacency, then I can only pray that that asshole never logs another second over Afghanistan.

Not sure where you got the idea that we were making fun of OEF....take a lap around the Strike squadron at BAF. NOBODY thinks its a joke. I got a thick skin and I'll take the riducule over a beer in the bar like anyone else. But, I'm not sure why you feel the need to belittle someones accomplishments no matter how seemingly insignificant you may think they are. In your world, I probably shouldn't even wear my wings, since I would not want to "edify my life by broadcasting my accomplishments".

Edited August 24, 2010 by mudhen69

[Guest]

your bros have frated friendlies with JDAMs, morted themselves while strafing, and made worldwide headlines by slaughtering Afghan civilians. ...Hilarious.

Slow your roll Hoss.

There are more A-10 frat incidents (including incidents with "worldwide headlines") than the Mudhen. More Hogs drivers have died strafing than in the Mudhen.

I don't think anyone in either community thinks those things are a joke. To try to put them in the same context with this patch discussion is a cheap shot.

[Guest]

After flying, teaching, bar stories, etc, with guys from those other airframes, it was obvious that a lot of those negative opinions I had about other airframes were really because I had no idea what their airframe had in terms of capabilities and how those capes impacted their TTPs. What appeared stupid to me as an outsider actually made a lot of sense once I understood that.

'Nuff said.

[nsplayr]

Hoss,

Here's my summary of other people's points on here:

1. OIF/OEF is serious business and no platform is perfect but we're all doing our best to win the wars

2. Missions in OEF are much less of a threat to aircrew than many missions during Vietnam and other previous wars

3. Missions in OEF are also sometimes monotonous (NTISR) and lacking in the inherent valor of old-school fighter wars

4. A "100 OEF Missions" patch is simultaneously (A) a throwback to AF heritage, back to a time when such a claim implied that you had gone through some serious sh*t and managed to live and (B) an ironic jab at the monotony of today's missions and the irony that living through 100 missions is still some kind of accomplishment. The proportion of A to B probably depends on the dude wearing the patch.

I can understand the frustration when you think other people in a war zone aren't taking important stuff seriously, but it seems like everyone here agrees you need to breathe and count to 10. Did it bother you enough to confront this guy? Have you personally seen him or his crew screw the pooch?

If not I think your frustrations are noted and possibly should be vectored toward some of the shoeclerkery going on over there. We should all probably move along before this becomes an unnecessary mud sling between CAS platforms. Bottom line if you are out there flying the line you are head and shoulders above most Americans who only bitch and complain about the war when things aren't going well.

Sorry if that comes off like I'm a dick but just wanted to lay it out there.

Edited August 25, 2010 by nsplayr

[Guest Alarm Red]

SrA Yelner: BSM (no valor device) for being killed as a result of an IED/ambush attack. (Bagram DFAC named after him, citation outside on a plaque)

Posthumous award for service. No valor device awarded.

Capts McDowell and Gramith: BSM (no valor device) killed in a aircraft mishap in Afghanistan last summer

And they likely would have received MSMs had Lag crashed at Dare County instead of Ghazni.

Several of my friends from high school and college who went door to door in Bagdhad: BSM (no valor device)

So no valor device means it equals service. Their chain of command obviously felt their service exceeded an Army Commendation Medal. I've written BSMs like this.

All heroes in my book. though same medal as the FSS commander. BSM no V. Consider yourself educated.

Thanks, skippy. Having written BSM packages both w/ and w/out V devices, I'll take your notes into consideration for next time I write one.

If you're still having a hard time with this, ask your WSO. Until then, Judy.

[FourFans]

^ Shoe clerk much?

[Bergman]

We used to have a big sign over the master map of Bosnia/Kosovo/Serbia in the Aviano MPC:

COMPLANCY KILLS

"Hey, that's great. But who are the Chefs?"

[Guest Alarm Red]

^ Shoe clerk much?

Yeah, knowing how to take care of your people makes you a shoe clerk. Smoke pole much?

[Whitman]

"Hey, that's great. But who are the Chefs?"

Well done Sir!

[Guest]

Boundless gross buffoonery...early cart...rock in my shoe...sun in my eyes.

Unscoreable at six. That'll cost me a quarter.

Yeah, knowing how to take care of your people makes you a shoe clerk.

No, but coming off as an arrogant prick about shoe clerk type issues and not having a sense of humor does.

Smoke pole much?

Seriously, that's you're witty response? You're smarter than that. I've seen much better from you.

[Murph]

I didn't even know when I flew my one millionth mission. True story guys.(sarcasm)

Whoops, missed this little gem of a post. You'd figure after a million missions you would've had the whole airdrop thing figured out. Let me see, last fall/winter I counted three missed drops, 2 QRFs launched to recover your misdrops and about 17 high-fives back at the flightline for a job well done. Speaking of patches, sweet "INFIL/EXFIL/SHOOT" patches.

You've just been waiting for me to slip up after slamming you for jerking off to the Dragon Spear METLs, havent you?

[mudhen69]

Posthumous award for service. No valor device awarded.

And they likely would have received MSMs had Lag crashed at Dare County instead of Ghazni.

So no valor device means it equals service. Their chain of command obviously felt their service exceeded an Army Commendation Medal. I've written BSMs like this.

Thanks, skippy. Having written BSM packages both w/ and w/out V devices, I'll take your notes into consideration for next time I write one.

If you're still having a hard time with this, ask your WSO. Until then, Judy.

Somehow I think you made my point for me. A shoeclerk squadron commander and someone who is KIA gets the same medal, a Bronze Star for Service. Perhaps there should be 3 levels of the medal, one with a V device, one without, and one with an S (for shoeclerk) device to indicate that you are a shoeclerk and spent your deployment enforcing grooming and glow belt regulations.

In the end, I really dont care. Thanks for the lesson though...I lost my copy of the Tounge and Quill when I needed something to prop up my dining room table that broke during my last PCS. Too bad the people at TMO were to busy writing medals to pat themsevles on the back to take the time to hire a reputable moving company where they dont employ ex cons who show up drunk and break all of your crap.

I am going to go read 3-1 now from cover to cover to make up for the brain cells I lost arguing with you over the BSM. Good day sir!

[Guest CharlieDontSurf]

Whoops, missed this little gem of a post. You'd figure after a million missions you would've had the whole airdrop thing figured out. Let me see, last fall/winter I counted three missed drops, 2 QRFs launched to recover your misdrops and about 17 high-fives back at the flightline for a job well done. Speaking of patches, sweet "INFIL/EXFIL/SHOOT" patches.

You've just been waiting for me to slip up after slamming you for jerking off to the Dragon Spear METLs, havent you?

But you slam me so good baby. So strong and tough. Any chance for a rub and a tug afterward?

[Toro]

I lost my copy of the Tounge and Quill when I needed something to prop up my dining room table that broke during my last PCS.

Irony exemplified.

I have nothing else to contribute other than to reiterate that AF Decorations are

[Guest Hueypilot812]

I can remember a certain O-5 who served as the group Dir. of Staff while deployed with CAFTT. He worked on the US base, and rarely came to the Iraqi base. His job was essentially putting red ink on OPR/EPRs and Decs. He did what essentially any other O-5 might do anywhere else.

I was an O-3 at the time. I wrote three regs for the IqAF. I investigated a Class A mishap. I trained pilots in a combat zone and helped set up their squadron to run on their own without US help. I did a number of other things while deployed that was above and beyond what a normal O-3 might do.

When it came time for my dec, my commander sent up an MSM and the O-5 kicked it back several times stating all I deserved was an AFCM. The O-5 was getting a BSM...for doing office queep. My boss went to bat for me and got me the MSM. It was a long year and we got a lot done in often pretty shitty conditions.

So yeah...USAF decs...they are what they are. Sometimes deserved. Often inflated.

[Cooter]

"Hey, that's great. But who are the Chefs?"

Complaceny in OAF...NO didn't happen...oh wait.

BLUF: Regardless of airframe there are "milk runs" but you must always be prepared for that defining moment.

Having the attitude that every mission is the same can get people in trouble, in the air and on the ground.

Cooter

[SCRIMP]

Maybe this is just a fixed wing thing...but I know I am damn proud of the missions I have done in OEF. If we made a 100(some dudes have 300-400 missions as co-pilots) patch I would wear it proudly everyday. Maybe the perspective is a little bit different down low. Personally, I have seen the work that some of you CAS guys do....and I would be proud of that as well. Even if you don't shoot every time...or you do the ISR stuff...I know that you guys have made a difference for us as well a lot of sweaties on the ground. Shit can get repetative for sure...but a lot of people depend on y'all when they are having the worst day of their life. Just my .02. Maybe I am too green to talk...

[Guest]

a lot of people depend on y'all when they are having the worst day of their life...

Maybe I am too green to talk...

Not when you say things like the you aren't.

Shit hot.

[FourFans]

...a lot of people depend on y'all when they are having the worst day of their life...

Hey herk new kids out there. This applies to you. Dropping under fire and carrying the Bandage callsign are just as important. Get up for it or go home.

I'd wear the patch. Not for pride and not as some inside joke. Our service has a long history of "100 mission" patchs, just like they have red stars and swastikas on the canopy rails, and just like we have wings on our chests. That's a part of our history. You can be a part of it, or you can laugh at it, but you can't do both (not in truth at any rate). I'd wear it because I think that what I've done over there matters and has made a difference. If you don't believe that in some way, what are you doing in combat?

FF