Preventing Air Show Crashes

[Butters]

Disclaimer: This is an adult discussion about air show related crashes and what can be done (if anything) to prevent them. It is intended for mature forum members only. So, all of you ROTC, Academy, and 4Chan fucks need to stay out.

Since the Barnstorming days, accidents have happened and aviators and spectators have died.

How can we help to prevent it?

Now I can only speak for AMC, and we have had our fair share of accidents though time. My question is really related to dedicate vs. “available” Demo crews. Now I know ACC in the past has had specific A-10, F-16, ect. Demo pilots. As I understood it this was their job for a time. Am I correct? Now in AMC there are times I have seen dedicated Demo crews that are always the air show crew (guard and reserve mostly) and I have seen the “who’s in town that we can upgrade” (active duty).

Is a crew that does the demo profile all the time more susceptible to trying to one up themselves every time they do another show? Are newly upgraded crew less likely to push the limits because they are not familiar with the profile? How does ACC deal with this problem? What do you do when crews try to one up the crew from the last air show?

Not talking about specific accidents or making any generalizations on how wings upgrade/schedule their crews. Just discussing possibilities on how future mishaps might be avoided.

[Butters]

Ok, good info.

Yes the Thunderbirds/Blue Angles are highly trained/recruited/scripted professionals. No room for show boating. Of all of the accidents I am aware of with these teams, they were just that, accidents. Never a case of trying to push the limits and do it better than the next guy.

Not being in ACC, have there ever been any big mishaps with the individual fighter aircraft demo teams?

I was the C-17 Demo pilot at an air show after an aircraft had crashed (fatality) during practice. You are right, changes the entire mood and makes you wonder if it is worth it.

[BQZip01]

1. The only way to prevent them is to eliminate flying altogether.

2. Airshow crashes are almost always routine accidents that, in the normal ops world, would be "simple" class A mishaps. The differences are "showing off", an audience, and often the lack of altitude to recover from a situation.

3. You cannot prevent accidents, but you can minimize risk. The level of risk is what we need to more firmly establish and then remove anything that falls above that level or mitigate it.

I think that the demo teams need to be dedicated professionals, not "Hey Skippy, you just upgraded to Flight Lead. Wanna put on a show at Oshkosh?" The rest of the flying needs to be done in a manner consistent with day-to-day operations. A B-52 doing a 45 degree-banked turn at 1000 feet is pretty cool and is well within the day-to-day flight parameters of a BUFF. A B-52 doing crazy things it is never meant to do (i.e. CZAR 52 and Bud Holland) is NOT acceptable. All such flights need to be coordinated with/approved by Wing Safety. (let's leave the speculation about what happened in Alaska to the Safety Board)

I believe most (if not all) U.S. military flying is done under these standards.

We haven't had an Air Force-spectator fatality in quite some time (honestly can't remember the last time) and I think we are doing it right. I don't think the Navy & Army have the same standards, but I think hearing how they do it (sts) and their safety record would be valuable.

[Toro]

Now I can only speak for AMC, and we have had our fair share of accidents though time. My question is really related to dedicate vs. “available” Demo crews. Now I know ACC in the past has had specific A-10, F-16, ect. Demo pilots. As I understood it this was their job for a time. Am I correct? Now in AMC there are times I have seen dedicated Demo crews that are always the air show crew (guard and reserve mostly) and I have seen the “who’s in town that we can upgrade” (active duty).

Yes, it is their full time job. They may be able to do other flying on the side, but the demo training takes priority.

Is a crew that does the demo profile all the time more susceptible to trying to one up themselves every time they do another show?

No, the profile is a set profile that does not change throughout the season. For the F-15E demo, the Wg/CC and Chief of Wing Safety had to view the profile before it could be approved.

Are newly upgraded crew less likely to push the limits because they are not familiar with the profile? How does ACC deal with this problem?

No, there is a massive amount of training and preparation for demonstrations. They use a step-down training where they run through the profile at medium altitude and gradually bring it lower and lower to the ground. They are not cleared for demonstrations until they are 100% ready.

What do you do when crews try to one up the crew from the last air show?

There's only one demo pilot/crew, at least for the F-15s and F-22.

[Chuck17]

FWIW - the ONLY demo airshow crews I've known were guys that were experienced aviators.

Specific to the C-17 world, the least experienced dude is typically sitting in the jump seat. I havent seen the "who's in town" attitude toward a Demo crew - usually only toward a ground static airshow gig involving no flying. There is a training syllabus, several flights and MAJCOM-level (general officer) approval for my command to be certified as a Demo pilot. They've always been dedicated crews with a special qual and specific training. Notably, when I was at McChord it was almost universally taken care of by USAFR pilots - so I wont comment on how they did it.

Prior to SITKA 43, the Demo crew at Elmendorf went all around the world flying the jet in Demos. Want to know the reason India is buying C-17s? Elmendorf demo - they flew to India for the airshow at the Indians request for a demo, and a year later they are under contract.

Chuck

[HuggyU2]

Since the Barnstorming days, accidents have happened and aviators and spectators have died

A very misleading statement, since there hasn't been a spectator death in a US airshow since 1954.

Compare that to,... oh,...say Monster Truck racing. Last year, 2 spectators died in under two weeks at separate venues. One was a child. Yet no one is wringing their hands on how we "stop the madness" in Monster Truck.

And let's just see what exactly what the accident board comes up with in the C-17 accident before we knee jerk this.

Not being in ACC, have there ever been any big mishaps with the individual fighter aircraft demo teams?

Yes. Moose Phillips (F-16 East) was killed at Kingsville around 2002 in a performance.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Huggyu2

[Guest]

Yes, it is their full time job. They may be able to do other flying on the side, but the demo training takes priority.

And keeping the "pimp my ride" demo jet clean and pretty also takes priority.

You can't strafe in the demo jet...which at a nickle a hole can get expensive on the range.

[MKopack]

Ok, good info.

Yes the Thunderbirds/Blue Angles are highly trained/recruited/scripted professionals. No room for show boating. Of all of the accidents I am aware of with these teams, they were just that, accidents. Never a case of trying to push the limits and do it better than the next guy.

Not being in ACC, have there ever been any big mishaps with the individual fighter aircraft demo teams?

I was the C-17 Demo pilot at an air show after an aircraft had crashed (fatality) during practice. You are right, changes the entire mood and makes you wonder if it is worth it.

From the ACC, Navy, and Canadian Tac Demo pilots I know, it seems to be much like the Thunderbirds / Blue Angels. Incredibly scripted shows that are highly practiced without any margin for 'pushing it up' at any show more than others.

We lost Maj. Brison "Moose" Phillips, of the Shaw based Viper East, at NAS Kingsville, Texas, 19 Mar 2000. That same year in June, Lt. Bill Dey and Lt. David Bergstrom of the F-14 Tomcat Demo Team were lost at NAS Willow Grove.

[MKopack]

Large difference between US / North American and overseas shows. While Europe had tightened up on their regulations, especially after the 1988 Frecce Tricolori crash at Ramstein, you will still see things at shows there that wouldn't be permitted here. Other places in the world, it's the wild west - anything goes - with results like the 2002 Su-27 crash at Lviv in Ukraine.

PS - in before the lock.

Edited August 24, 2010 by MKopack

[afnav]

In the two aircraft I flew (both heavies) every airshow I did was as a static. The worst accident I had was a coke cup spilled on a console in the back of an E-3. Thirty seconds later with a rag and the crisis was over.

The one flyby I did was for the 50th Anniversary for the first B-52 delivery to the Air Force. Everything went well except for my EVS display reading us ten knots fast on the deck, but it was windy that day and the readout tended to be inaccurate at lower altitudes with heavy winds. I pointed it out in debrief and was assured we did not overspeed the plane. Issue over.

When I went through Randolph years ago, the Fairchild crash was still very fresh in everyone's minds. CRM was a frequently-taught subject, and it was drilled into us at every occasion. I like to think we were spring-loaded to be safe when we finished training. When I got to the E-3, Yukla 27 was still fresh in everyone's minds, and we flew very safe. The only big issue I had in the B-52 was being asked to fly in a pinned seat when problems were found with the inertial reel. Coming from a non-ejection plane, it didn't bother me much for obvious reasons. They fixed the seats and the issue was over.

It just seems to me that the heavily-scripted demonstrations with highly-disciplined crews just don't have as many issues. Years of practice build up a safety culture, or there would be more incidents. That's just a surface appraisal without the empirical data to back it up.

The last crash that killed a spectator (sort of) that I know of was the Thunderhawks crash in '87. This was the abortive attempt by SAC to have a demo team of B-52s and KC-135s. The tanker got caught in the BUFF's jetwash at low level and crashed near the field, sliding into an off-duty boom operator of the team watching the show. I do believe a 'demo' team could have worked, but the flying would have been so unexciting to an audience that it would have been comical. Tex Johnson aside, big planes are just not cut out for aerobatics that would really thrill a layman.

[Toro]

Pissing contest over, conversation back on. Offenders will be put in time out if it happens again.

A very misleading statement, since there hasn't been a spectator death in a US airshow since 1954.

While it wasn't an airshow in the US, them 1988 Ramstein AB airshow disaster was at a US installation and resulted in 67 deaths.

And keeping the "pimp my ride" demo jet clean and pretty also takes priority.

True, BUT I have on more than one occasion used one of the demo jets as a spare (we had more than one).

You can't strafe in the demo jet...which at a nickle a hole can get expensive on the range.

Not true for us. We don't keep our guns loaded unless we plan on strafing (which is rare), so realistically none of them can strafe. But our demo jets were no different than other jets and, given the lead time, can be configured like any other jet.

[Dupe]

Having seen airshows from a few different vantage points now, the aerial demonstrations aren't the most risky part of the show. To me, the most dangerous part is about 20 minutes after the last act when half the statics are trying to bolt from the airfield. At the same time, all of the folks attending are leaving and vendors are concentrated on getting their crap packed up. Everybody is tired and everybody's guard is down since the airshow is complete. Its this environment that allows some pretty insane ground mishaps to occur. The show ain't over untill you do the Monday morning FOD walk.

[osulax05]

For the F-15E demo, the Wg/CC and Chief of Wing Safety had to view the profile before it could be approved.

The ACC/CC is certifying official for the profile and pilot for ACC East/West Coast Teams. The pilots all fly to Langley before the season starts for the cert.

Edited August 24, 2010 by osulax05

[HuggyU2]

While it wasn't an airshow in the US, them 1988 Ramstein AB airshow disaster was at a US installation and resulted in 67 deaths.

Irrelevant. The FAA does not have jurisdiction in Germany, even on an American airbase.

If you watch the TBirds, you will notice the crossing point after their bomb burst is 500' past the far right edge of the crowd line. Had the Frecci Tricolori, done that, it might have been a different outcome.

Maj "Moose" Phillips: thanks for the correction. I never met him.

Also, there was the F-117 demo crash over the Martin State, MD show in 1997. That was a mechanical failure and had nothing to do with the airshow... or so I'm told.

[skibum]

I think the aerial demo idea has gotten out of hand for the non-fighter type. I can't believe I've got to come up with some bogus syllabus and "practice" to do a simply fly-by at an air show. If you're going to do some out-of-the ordinary demonstration then sure. To fly a herc past a bunch of bubbas sittin in lawn chairs & sippin beer I don't need no stinkin practice. It's straight & level flight for sh!t sake!

The issue of concern for the rest is that it dumbs down the whole program. People begin to look at it as a joke because the brass is trying to apply the same logic across the board. It's like the reflective belt - it used to have a legitimate purpose (I can't believe I just said that) but is now just mocked.

Edited August 25, 2010 by skibum

[PirateAF]

I just "upgraded" to Demo Team and it was a very serious affair. Sq/CC and Gp/CC certification sit-downs and multiple practice sorties. And unlike the other airframe fly-by profiles recently mentioned, the C-17 demo includes a max effort climb, a high speed pass (300 IAS with FAA waiver), a slow speed fully configured pass (120 IAS), a 360 45 degree bank turn, and an assault landing to a reverse taxi. I know compared to the Blue Angels or the Thunderhawks it seems pretty tame - it's a blast to fly though.

[Guest Sandlapper]

ACC pointy-nose demo teams treat airshow demonstrations completely differently than AMC. Granted, the profiles flown by fighters are much, much more complex, but nonetheless...it's worth noting the practical differences. First, to upgrade to demonstration pilot, the typical ACC dude flies a 20-30 sortie syllabus, culminating with a checkride-type performance in front of the MAJCOM 4-star, who is responsible for their final sign-off to go fly in public. Every practice at homestation, along with every off-station airshow, is videotaped and a gradesheet is filled out recording entry/exit parameters (altitude, airspeed, G's). Every practice (usually once/week) & airshow is debriefed while watching the video with all players - safety observer, narrator, etc. Those gradesheets are reviewed & signed off by a vested O-6 within the chain of command. If a parameter is busted (such as a no-lower-than altitude), that video tape will typically be reviewed by the OG & he'll want an explanation as to why it happened. Any deficiencies in the performance will manifest themselves in the debrief or while reviewing the data (pulled from the HUD tape or FDR following every demo sortie)...and focused on in subsequent practices.

The point is...AMC demo pilots may think their upgrade was a "serious affair" because they sat down for a heart-to-heart with the Sq/CC & OG/CC after several sorties, but the fact of the matter is that if & when they dick it up, nobody will ever know about it. Negative trends may never be addressed. I have a feeling the winds of change may soon be breezing into the AMC demonstration qual process, and rightly so. In ACC, it is a huge deal to be the demonstration pilot (1 East coast guy, 1 West coast guy per airframe). Typical heavy BASE might have 8-10 demonstration qualified AC's...good luck keeping that currency.

My 2 cents...the T-Birds are a great recruiting tool - let the pros do what they do. Frankly, people want C-17's at airshows for the shade under the wing. We are flying heavy demonstrations (a recruiting tool, remember) during a time when we turn more kids away from enlisting than we accept. Yes, it's fun to fly & cool to see, but...what's the point?

[slacker]

I think the aerial demo idea has gotten out of hand for the non-fighter type. I can't believe I've got to come up with some bogus syllabus and "practice" to do a simply fly-by at an air show. If you're going to do some out-of-the ordinary demonstration then sure. To fly a herc past a bunch of bubbas sittin in lawn chairs & sippin beer I don't need no stinkin practice. It's straight & level flight for sh!t sake!

A flyover is not a demo. A flyover doesn't require demo certification. A Herk demo profile is crap you do every day during the typical JA/ATT, nothing really out of the ordinary.

[M2]

Also, there was the F-117 demo crash over the Martin State, MD show in 1997. That was a mechanical failure and had nothing to do with the airshow... or so I'm told.

One of the better videos of that crash. It starts about 1:08, and is recapped in slo-mo at 1:38...

Cheers! M2

[PirateAF]

The point is...AMC demo pilots may think their upgrade was a "serious affair" because they sat down for a heart-to-heart with the Sq/CC & OG/CC after several sorties, but the fact of the matter is that if & when they dick it up, nobody will ever know about it. Negative trends may never be addressed. I have a feeling the winds of change may soon be breezing into the AMC demonstration qual process, and rightly so. In ACC, it is a huge deal to be the demonstration pilot (1 East coast guy, 1 West coast guy per airframe). Typical heavy BASE might have 8-10 demonstration qualified AC's...good luck keeping that currency.

My 2 cents...the T-Birds are a great recruiting tool - let the pros do what they do. Frankly, people want C-17's at airshows for the shade under the wing. We are flying heavy demonstrations (a recruiting tool, remember) during a time when we turn more kids away from enlisting than we accept. Yes, it's fun to fly & cool to see, but...what's the point?

Sandlapper - thanks for the info, I had no idea the ACC demo pilots underwent such a process. You definitely have a point that they do have much more oversight than we do, however, FWIW the pilot flying the airshow demo in the C-17 does have the co-pilot and the safety observer on the flight deck. Not the same level of feedback as a video tape review, but we do treat it seriously.

Moosepilot - Agree that this conversation is limited until the board releases their findings. Curious - IAC competition pilot? (rodeo?)

[contraildash]

With airshow crashes relatively infrequent in the overall grand scheme of things (especially in the US and even more so with USAF aircraft), there are bigger issues at hand to deal with when it comes to aviation safety. I think we do a fairly good job at mitigating the risks, but accidents will still occur as long as we keep flying. Even with all the oversight, training, ect involved with the demo teams they still have accidents. You can only mitigate the human factor so much, we still make mistakes. So unless we stop flying, there will be airshow accidents.

On the subject of airshows and display teams..

I love airshows. Yes fighter displays are cool/loud/filled with impressive maneuvering but they are fairly standard and there isn't really anything new to them. There are exceptions of course, such as the weird/pointless stuff the Russians do (it looks good) and of course the F-22 display that is all the rave right now. Many other non-fighter displays are much more unique and interesting. Ever seen the RAF Chinook display? The Dutch Apache display? The C-27 Spartan? It's much more exciting to see aircraft do things that most people don't think possible.

Personally, one of the best airshows I ever attended was at El Toro as a kid. The Marines essentially put on a war and showcased the capabilities of every a/c in their inventory. It was awesome.

edit: spell'n

Edited August 25, 2010 by contraildash

[Guest Sandlapper]

Sandlapper - thanks for the info, I had no idea the ACC demo pilots underwent such a process. You definitely have a point that they do have much more oversight than we do, however, FWIW the pilot flying the airshow demo in the C-17 does have the co-pilot and the safety observer on the flight deck. Not the same level of feedback as a video tape review, but we do treat it seriously.

You bet...and I'm not implying that the heavy guys don't take what they do very seriously - I know they do. I have a feeling once the Generals get some "skin in the game" with regards to AMC demonstrations, the oversight of the qual process will probably go through the roof. Think about it...no one wants to be the guy that said "he's good to go" without a robust feedback loop in place. Perhaps draconian in some folks' eyes, but tragedies have a way of forcing a reevaluation of what was once business-as-usual.

[SuperWSO]

Also, there was the F-117 demo crash over the Martin State, MD show in 1997. That was a mechanical failure and had nothing to do with the airshow... or so I'm told.

The video from that one was all over the news at the time. From what I recall, the outboard section of the wing separated from the aircraft during straight and level flight. At that point, a shape that can't fly without the aid of computers stopped trying and became a ballistic projectile.

That one could have happened anywhere, no-one was injured, and the AIB had the added advantage of having video of the accident from multiple perspectives.

[MD]

The video from that one was all over the news at the time. From what I recall, the outboard section of the wing separated from the aircraft during straight and level flight. At that point, a shape that can't fly without the aid of computers stopped trying and became a ballistic projectile.

That one could have happened anywhere, no-one was injured, and the AIB had the added advantage of having video of the accident from multiple perspectives.

The last pass of our airshow profile was the arcing pass with about a 3-4G climb to give the crowd a planform view of the bird. It was on this pass that the elevon and outer wing section separated due to fasteners being left off following the plane's last inspection of the Brooklyn Bridge spar. Following that, it's as you write above.

[BigFreddie]

I love airshows. Yes fighter displays are cool/loud/filled with impressive maneuvering but they are fairly standard and there isn't really anything new to them. There are exceptions of course, such as the weird/pointless stuff the Russians do (it looks good) and of course the F-22 display that is all the rave right now. Many other non-fighter displays are much more unique and interesting. Ever seen the RAF Chinook display? The Dutch Apache display? The C-27 Spartan? It's much more exciting to see aircraft do things that most people don't think possible.

I agree with this. Fighters are great to watch but that is really what I expect them to be able to do - upside down, loops, fast, noisy. When you start watching a heavy maneuvering very close to the ground aggressively it is impressive because you don't expect that. Same with Matt Younkin in his Beech 18 - an airplane like that shouldn't go upside down but he makes it happen.

For the former/current C-17 demo pilots - was there an AMC approved profile plus training syllabus? I know the C-5 community was looking to get an approved profile so they could go lower than 1000'. I also watched the last Dover airshow with a Dover C-17 crew doing a demo and a C-5M doing its air show debut - I was near the OG/CC and once the demos were done with no issues he said, "Good, I don't have to take anyone's wings tomorrow."

And the only way not to have crashes at air shows is no flying at air shows - which is also the same way not to have crashes operationally - no flying. Yet we must weigh the risk versus the reward - and risk is the cost of accidents and even the cost of having an air show (was $180k worth a one day air show where 10k people showed up?).

BF

Edited August 26, 2010 by BigFreddie