Preventing Air Show Crashes

[Guest]

In a fighter squadron the Chief of Stan/Eval isn't necessarily the most skilled or tactically proficient pilot, no.

I fact, typically they're not even close.

Fighter guys don't worship the stan eval function like heavy guys do. That's mainly because fighter guys have ways of keeping score and fighter IPs who are really good are what is most valuable to a unit. Heavy guys don't have a way to keep score so they use the SEFE qualification as a high water mark.

Evaluating the work of others is very easy so the skillset required for stan/eval isn't flying related. Most fighter DOTV/OGV guys are picked because they can keep the FEFs squared away so the unit can pass when the uberdouche ASEV evaluators show up.

Don't get me started on SEFEs who think they are good pilots because they are SEFEs.

[Guest Crew Report]

Evaluating the work of others is very easy so the skillset required for stan/eval isn't flying related.

Interesting point. In my experience evaluating the work of other is usually harder because if I'm going to hook you, I had better know exactly what the regulation you violated and where that falls in to the 11-MDS Vol 2. Reason being is when you walk out of that debrief you're signing your Q-3 Form 8 and starting the training/new check process based my observation on one mission planning/flight/debrief.

Now are all Stan Eval types the best in the heavy world? Negative. In my last squadron the Sq/CC and DO put someone in as Chief of Stan Eval because, "they didn't have anyone else."

Edited December 28, 2010 by Crew Report

[bagasticks]

I fact, typically they're not even close.

Fighter guys don't worship the stan eval function like heavy guys do. That's mainly because fighter guys have ways of keeping score and fighter IPs who are really good are what is most valuable to a unit. Heavy guys don't have a way to keep score so they use the SEFE qualification as a high water mark.

Evaluating the work of others is very easy so the skillset required for stan/eval isn't flying related. Most fighter DOTV/OGV guys are picked because they can keep the FEFs squared away so the unit can pass when the uberdouche ASEV evaluators show up.

Don't get me started on SEFEs who think they are good pilots because they are SEFEs.

execellent post and spot on. . Unfortunately in the herb community (atleast in the AFRC/ANG) everything hangs on stan/evals subjective interpretation of the regs during evals to rack and stack. Every squadron i've been in since departing the pointy-nose commune has had a "chief pilot" although not necessarily an OGV dude. This dude is usually the guy that has final say in hiring boards etc. and is usually a senior dude. He is also much like a pilot-union rep and handles "greivances". Someone mentioned above and I agree it probably rolled down from all the airline bubbas to ang/afrc.

My biggest problem with SEFEs is that more often than not, they are overly focused on useless minutia and not nearly as concerned with measuring safe,effective mission employment. WAY too many downgrades going on in the herb community that are not based on anything beyond personal techniques/interpretation (you'd think it was baptist sunday school). Alot of SEFE's (on the ANG/AFRC heavy side anyways) that dont even own tan flight suits and have no earthly idea how to employ their MWS beyond the local area.

Edited December 28, 2010 by bagasticks

[C-21.Pilot]

1.) In the heavy world, Evaluator Pilots are NOT the best -- but typically, the most experienced. Keep in mind, most guys get pushed to that job as OPR fodder and it doesn't measure up to "who the best is".

2.) In the heavy world, Evaluator Pilots work SOLELY for the SQ/CC....as a way to "check and balance" the DO's flying program.

3.) In the heavy world, Evaluator Pilots -- as in my case -- don't work in the Stan/Eval shop on a consistent basis.

In my experience evaluating the work of other is usually harder because if I'm going to hook you, I had better know exactly what the regulation you violated and where that falls in to the 11-MDS Vol 2. Reason being is when you walk out of that debrief you're signing your Q-3 Form 8 and starting the training/new check process based my observation on one mission planning/flight/debrief.

I've seen and GIVEN many a downgrade, but have NEVER hooked for MSN Planning/flight/debrief.....that sounds to UPT queep to me. I've hooked 3 guys in my entire tenure as a EP in the C-17 and C-21.

1.) All had to do with safety of flight and procedural knowledge.

2.) All had to do based on the CREW not backing up the Aircraft Commander.

3.) All had to do with complacency in the "system".

Fighter guys don't worship the stan eval function like heavy guys do.

From a career advancement point of view, I can see this -- as it does "set you apart". It was a goal of mine, for career advancement, to seek out and become a SEFE. As you pointed out, a tick mark qualification -- however, for career goals (civilian, 89th, WIC, etc) it's seen as a good thing. However, maybe in your vast experience in the heavy world you've witnessed this where the SEFE shop is regarded as the elite pilots (nonsense). More so, the guy in the SQ with the biggest pecker who the chicks dig is the Airdrop guy with about 3-4 deployments under his/her belt, has gone to WIC, St Joe, etc....and can pass his superior MWS knowledge onto the masses (C-17 specific) and doesn't walk around like his left testicle is larger than both of yours.

When it comes to the PAED crew, Chuck17, hit the nail on the head....

[Guest]

I've seen and GIVEN many a downgrade, but have NEVER hooked for MSN Planning/flight/debrief.....that sounds to UPT queep to me. I've hooked 3 guys in my entire tenure as a EP in the C-17 and C-21.

I am proud to say I never even gave a guy a downgrade on a checkride. I did, however, hooked tons of guys on upgrade rides so they could get the required training they needed to execute the mission.

From a career advancement point of view, I can see this -- as it does "set you apart". It was a goal of mine, for career advancement, to seek out and become a SEFE. As you pointed out, a tick mark qualification -- however, for career goals (civilian, 89th, WIC, etc) it's seen as a good thing.

'Nuff fucking said.

However, maybe in your vast experience in the heavy world you've witnessed this where the SEFE shop is regarded as the elite pilots (nonsense).

My experience is not vast but I did begin my career in MAC which is where I first witnessed this. Nothing over the next 20+ made me think it had changed...to include your comments about your desire to become a SEFE because it would help your career.

Back on topic, I don't think the profile belongs in OGV. I would think the profile should be approved at the MAJCOM level and the crew(s) be certified after flying the profile in front of O-7 or higher outside the wing.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

That's so cool that you fly at 300', fly through mountain valleys, and go inverted in your trash can...don't really care and I'm not impressed.

WTF? Who pissed in your cornflakes? It wasn't an attempt to impress, I don't give a shit if you think what I do is cool or not. My comment was pointing out that many heavy communities (including yours) do far more than flying the jet routes then one to a full stop. It's not an attempt to be cool or try to be a fighter pilot. It's called employing our MWS in a specific mission (ie Tac airlift). Your viewpoint is based on your limited experience as a strat-only C-17 pilot (assuming that's what you do, based on your own post). Hope to God you don't actually intend on ever doing any tactical approaches to an assault zone...and stay clear of that pesky airdrop qual, you might just wet your pants because OMG you're not at 18,000 feet on autopilot being "safe".

While you're at it, stop being an idiotic prick.

[Guest]

While you're at it, stop being an idiotic prick.

Ignore him. I think he's a troll.

And if it makes you feel any better (which it probably doesn't) I am impressed by the tactical capabilities and missions of both the C-130 and the C-17. I've seen both those airplanes (including the many variations of the C-130) do some amazing shit that actually looks really fun. I've also had my life 100% dependent on the airlift guys landing on a 70'x4500' blacked out runway for food, bombs, bullets and the fuel for everything from the generator to the heater in my tent. It matters what you guys do, especially the tactical stuff.

[nsplayr]

The guy/girl that runs Stan Eval wouldn't be your most proficient and knowledgeable Instructor, which is why he/she is now an Evaluator and runs Stan Eval? Not always the case in the heavy world, but it happens a lot.

I.E.: Would not your most experienced, proficient, and knowledgeable instructors become evaluators and therefore run stan/eval?

Although it's a funny joke, the idea that someone is "not a good instructor, so make 'em an evaluator" is rarely what happens in reality (again, speaking based on experiences in the fighter world).

I think you guys misunderstood each other. Is my summation of your previous correct Crew?

In my extremely limited experience (i.e. my current sq) the stan/eval guys are all above-average aviators however they are not necessarily the very best and brightest simply because there are talented guys in other shops/positions for career considerations and likewise there are dudes that are SEFEs because that is a box they need to check to progress. As a young dude the guys I look up to are the instructors/evaluators who are out there beating up the pattern at home as well as flying the line downrange on a very regular basis who most effectively pour their knowledge into every dude they fly with (sts). What shop you work in doesn't really factor into that.

[busdriver]

The fighter guys' point is that ideally the best instructors become weapons officers and run the weapons and tactics shop/flight/whatever and while they may be evaluators, no they don't work in stan eval.

In my experience the guys who end up in stan/eval become sticklers for regulations. Their job requires it, or the squadron will fail an ASEV. Unfortunately in some cases it can lead to guys not seeing the forest for the trees.

[Guest]

I.E.: Would not your most experienced, proficient, and knowledgeable instructors become evaluators and therefore run stan/eval?

Nope. The best instructors teach, not evaluate.

The SEFE upgrade is easier than 2-FLUG. That should tell you something about the level of skill required to do that job.

...and likewise there are dudes that are SEFEs because that is a box they need to check to progress.

Which is exactly the problem with Stan/Eval.

A person does not become a weapons officer for career progression. It doesn't hurt their career but it is not a reason they are selected to become weapons officers.

[Herk Driver]

Which is exactly the problem with Stan/Eval.

A person does not become a weapons officer for career progression. It doesn't hurt their career but it is not a reason they are selected to become weapons officers.

Agree on point one.

On point two, in the fighter world, that is probably true. Not necessarily true in the AMC world these days. YMMV.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Herk Driver

[TacAirCoug]

A person does not become a weapons officer for career progression.

I hope that's still true for the pointy-nosed dudes, but I can tell you it most certainly is not in other communities. One policy from a few years ago even went so far as to say officers would not be selected for future CC or DO positions without a patch.

[Herk Driver]

I hope that's still true for the pointy-nosed dudes, but I can tell you it most certainly is not in other communities. One policy from a few years ago even went so far as to say officers would not be selected for future CC or DO positions without a patch.

Never seen that in writing, but you can take a look around the -130 community and see that is almost an unwritten rule. There are exceptions, YMMV.

I know a guy who pretty much won't hire you unless you are a patch.

[OL Patch]

would not be selected for future CC or DO positions without a patch.

Old guy spleen vent commencing: I saw plenty of patches who were crappy commanders at multiple levels from DO/CC on up....and also saw plenty of non-patches who were shit hot commanders. A generic policy like you mention is dumber than dirt!

OL Patch

Edit: Exhibit #1 is a former WS Commandant who's name shall not be mentioned.

Edited December 29, 2010 by OL Patch

[Hacker]

Ignore him. I think he's a troll.

How dare you! He's been his squadron's Chief Pilot!

I hope that's still true for the pointy-nosed dudes, but I can tell you it most certainly is not in other communities.

Yet more evidence of why it was probably a mistake to take "Fighter" off of that patch.

[Guest]

Yet more evidence of why it was probably a mistake to take "Fighter" off of that patch.

Kind of true. There have been some significant benefits to opening up the weapons school. Mostly from integrating the CAF assets better (big and little CAF airplanes).

Unfortunately, some of the non-CAF herbivores haven't made the transition very well because they regarded the school as a career enhancing activity. On the fighter side it is pretty easy to weed out the guys who aren't going to perform well as weapons officers. On the heavy side it is tougher, especially since they created a syllabus in a way that made it possible for an average (or maybe below average) pilot to graduate and become a weapons officer. The syllabus for heavy guys included pattern work and other non-tactical IP related bullshit. I can't imagine having something like chasing overhead patterns in a fighter syllabus. Not all new CAF integrations went well either...we used to be amazed at Nellis when the bomber guys would talk about washing a guy out for their paper. Yes, for their fucking paper.

There was also some foolish resistance to inputs from Nellis to the herbivores (some were cool, like Moondog, but those at the top were fucking nuts). I'll never forget how they got their panties in a wad over wanting to wear their patch on their right arm because they just couldn't displace the American flag. Lots of conversations with the bros that went something like "C'mon guys...it's hard enough for the fighter guys to defend you to the Lts in there own squadrons but when you start fucking around with which arm you wear the gaddam patch so that you look like complete idiots you're not helping." They totally fell on their swords on that one instead of going with the flow. I'm not sure they ever understood how much thought had gone into integrating them into the school but they just shit all over every suggestion about their syllabus, academic courseware, conduct of briefings and debriefings and following the FWIC traditions. Lots of "I told you this was a bad idea" comments behind closed doors in the division bars.

It eventually became bad enough that the decision was made at Nellis cut the herbivores loose and make the AMC airframes a completely separate school. They could still come to ME and graduation but they would be a separate entity entirely. That caused more bitching from AMC and no one at Nellis could understand what the fuck could ever make them happy.

Overall, I would say more is better and given time I hope those things get sorted out in AMC wrt their weapons officers.

BL: being selected for weapons school has nothing to do with advancing a career and graduating from weapons school has nothing to do with a person's ability to command.

[nsplayr]

Nope. The best instructors teach, not evaluate.

Initially I was just clarifying what someone else has posted, now I'm curious though. Help me understand b/c my perspective is limited & I have no knowledge of how a fighter squardon, WIC, etc. function.

From what I've seen in my squadron, both evaluators and instructors fly a lot of IP lines, teaching dudes on a daily basis. Evals also to checkrides and etc., generally flying even more lines than the average IP. Sometimes it's a mixed load, doing IP duties for, say, an aircraft commander upgrade ride as well as EP duties for an IP upgrade ride on the second 1/2 of the sortie.

For CSOs, EN is even more clearly a step above of IN because as an IN that's still assigned to the operation squadron (versus the FTU squadron) you rarely do instructing in the airplane because of weight/space considerations; as an EN you can ride in the back and conduct CSO checkrides in addition to being able to do ground/sim training typically done by the IN corps.

So, with that setup, why would you not make an instructor an evaluator when he's ready? If they still primarily fly/teach as IPs with occasional EP duty, what's the downside? We only need a few EPs to run stan/eval, an the rest are spread out in the other shops & at the group/wing, etc.

[OL Patch]

both evaluators and instructors fly a lot of IP lines, teaching dudes on a daily basis.

nsplayr,

I'll weigh in here but realize my diatribe is probably dated. In the community I grew up in (Light Grey or Light Gay if you want to go 90 left from your DADT expositions), most FWIC flow went like this:

Wingman

2Ship Flight Lead

4Ship Flight Lead

Mission Commander

Instructor Pilot

FWIC student

and if you graduated from the "they eat there own" Barnyard

Weapons Officer

Along the way after becoming an IP, the SQ and WG leadership put you in Stan/Eval as a "check pilot". We normally hung there for about six months while the FWIC selection process was ongoing. On a daily basis, I still did way more instructing than giving check rides. In fact, checkrides were a pain in the ass. As someone also said earlier, I never busted a guy on a check or gave a downgrade--but I busted a ton of guys on upgrades and as a WIC IP. Don't know if it was a carnivore/herbivore cultural thing, but the old C model community viewed checkrides as a one time necessary evil that had no basis in reality for how the dude flew day to day (didn't need someone from Stan/Eval to tell anyone what the guys reputation/skills in the airplane were). I'm talking mission checks--instrument checks were a waste of JP4 and our time---go fly an approach (you name what kind) in the sim and if you can't do it real world, low gas, shitty weather, you probably shouldn't be in the airplane. As I said--old guy view. Take it for what its worth.

OL Patch

EDITed for clarity: The majority of us wanted to be in the bar/vault drinking beer/whiskey and talking tactics rather than sitting over in OV filling out fricking check ride forms. There were a few worthless dudes that enjoyed the whole Stan/Eval "evaluator" crap, but most of them wore the badge of a checkpilot to make up for their lack of any tactical ability. Sorry..every community has asshats and even carnivores have long memories!

Edited December 29, 2010 by OL Patch

[Guest]

My last checkride in the USAF was as a SANDY 1 given to me by another weapons officer (SANDY 3) during a CSAR in combat. He was an excellent pilot who happened to be a SEFE. Since we got the guys out it was a Form 8 I could use to tell the next ASEV to kiss my ass and a good one to have on the top of the stack on the way out the door.

You don't want to waste your best instructors by having them give checkrides if you can avoid it but it is handy to have good guys be SEFEs.

A SEFE is not allowed to instruct on a checkride (although I always did) so you are wasting your best instructor when all you need is someone with decent judgement who can declare to the CC that the training program, run by the DO, is effective enough to make a pilot qualified in the mission and fly using the instruments.

The key is selecting SEFEs who have that judgement. Some of them may well be the best instructors in the unit, you just don't want to tie those guys up giving a checkride when there are upgrades to be flown or academics to teach.

I absolutely hated giving checkrides and loved flying upgrade sorties, especially the IP led upgrades most IPs avoided. I was your worst enemy harsh son of a bitch on an upgrade sortie and your best friend Santa Claus on steroids on a checkride.

It is that simple.

I never busted a guy on a check or gave a downgrade--but I busted a ton of guys on upgrades and as a WIC IP. Don't know if it was a carnivore/herbivore cultural thing, but the old C model community viewed checkrides as a one time necessary evil that had no basis in reality for how the dude flew day to day (didn't need someone from Stan/Eval to tell anyone what the guys reputation/skills in the airplane were). I'm talking mission checks--instrument checks were a waste of JP4 and our time---go fly an approach (you name what kind) in the sim and if you can't do it real world, low gas, shitty weather, you probably shouldn't be in the airplane. As I said--old guy view. Take it for what its worth.

Its worth a lot.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

A generic policy like you mention is dumber than dirt!

you may not have noticed, but the AF is all about one-size-fits-all, no thought involved policies that have no basis in reality, subjective (or objective) though, or common damn sense.

[Guest]

Edit: Exhibit #1 is a former WS Commandant who's name shall not be mentioned.

Unless you've got some spare cash handy that you want to part with, in which case you can say it as many times as you have $5 bills. The bar always needs stocking.

[OL Patch]

The bar always needs stocking.

Copy...will not stick my nose in the circle of Hogs over Belted...Rambo's out 090 for Texas Lake...debrief in one hour at the Hog Trough!!

[TacAirCoug]

Yet more evidence of why it was probably a mistake to take "Fighter" off of that patch.

I can't argue that point. I will say, though, the intent to bring tactical expertise to the masses was good, but the execution left a lot to be desired.

Unfortunately, some of the non-CAF herbivores haven't made the transition very well because they regarded the school as a career enhancing activity.

The problem is, leaders in our community these days pound this idea into our skulls from day one. To them, career is secondary to the mission. This seems to be the biggest problem we have to overcome.

There was also some foolish resistance to inputs from Nellis to the herbivores (some were cool, like Moondog, but those at the top were fucking nuts).

Thankfully, Moondog has continued to buck the trend of surgically removing one's common sense upon reaching O-6. It's a shame guys like him are such a rarity in our community.

BL: being selected for weapons school has nothing to do with advancing a career and graduating from weapons school has nothing to do with a person's ability to command.

Amen. I wish those ideas were universally accepted.

Edit: Clarity

Edited December 29, 2010 by TacAirCoug

[Guest Hueypilot812]

Kind of true. There have been some significant benefits to opening up the weapons school. Mostly from integrating the CAF assets better (big and little CAF airplanes).

Unfortunately, some of the non-CAF herbivores haven't made the transition very well because they regarded the school as a career enhancing activity. On the fighter side it is pretty easy to weed out the guys who aren't going to perform well as weapons officers. On the heavy side it is tougher, especially since they created a syllabus in a way that made it possible for an average (or maybe below average) pilot to graduate and become a weapons officer. The syllabus for heavy guys included pattern work and other non-tactical IP related bullshit. I can't imagine having something like chasing overhead patterns in a fighter syllabus. Not all new CAF integrations went well either...we used to be amazed at Nellis when the bomber guys would talk about washing a guy out for their paper. Yes, for their ing paper.

There was also some foolish resistance to inputs from Nellis to the herbivores (some were cool, like Moondog, but those at the top were ing nuts). I'll never forget how they got their panties in a wad over wanting to wear their patch on their right arm because they just couldn't displace the American flag. Lots of conversations with the bros that went something like "C'mon guys...it's hard enough for the fighter guys to defend you to the Lts in there own squadrons but when you start ing around with which arm you wear the gaddam patch so that you look like complete idiots you're not helping." They totally fell on their swords on that one instead of going with the flow. I'm not sure they ever understood how much thought had gone into integrating them into the school but they just shit all over every suggestion about their syllabus, academic courseware, conduct of briefings and debriefings and following the FWIC traditions. Lots of "I told you this was a bad idea" comments behind closed doors in the division bars.

It eventually became bad enough that the decision was made at Nellis cut the herbivores loose and make the AMC airframes a completely separate school. They could still come to ME and graduation but they would be a separate entity entirely. That caused more bitching from AMC and no one at Nellis could understand what the could ever make them happy.

Overall, I would say more is better and given time I hope those things get sorted out in AMC wrt their weapons officers.

BL: being selected for weapons school has nothing to do with advancing a career and graduating from weapons school has nothing to do with a person's ability to command.

Lots of good observations. I don't know much about the CAF culture. But what I have noticed is more of an emphasis on the results, whereas the MAF seems stuck on worshipping the process. Just look at the uniform issues. Every fighter dude I've seen (and ever fighter base I've been too) people wear tab patches, roll up their sleeves and other stuff. Is it still technically against the reg? Sure, but it's such a minor queepy issue that it seems the CAF in general has a "who gives a shit, lets get the mission done" mentality...the MAF has gone just short of stopping the mission to ensure everyone has their sleeves rolled down, etc.

You're also right about Moondog...I worked for him while at Dyess. He's a great dude, and one of the few MAF guys that seem to get that it's all about accomplishing our mission. Nothing else really matters. And while he was a big proponent of the WIC, he personally told us not to do the WIC for career progression. That's the wrong mentality. I personally have avoided the WIC because in the MAF, that's all it really has boiled down to for the most part...people seeking the patch so they can grease the wheels and make the command list.

Weapons school, as you said, does have benefits. Being able to have tacticians that know how to work the MAF assets into the overall picture is a big bonus. Unfortunately the program on our side of the fence has taken a life of its own and for most that aren't associated with Nellis, it's not so much about just tactics, it's about their career.

[Jughead]

I will say, though, the intent to ________________________ was good, but the execution left a lot to be desired.

Insert your favorite AF program here....