CSO drop nights

[Odium]

Don't recall exact numbers but ballpark:

6+ RC-135s

4 F-15Es

1 AD C-130

1 MC-130

4+ B-52s

2 KC-135s

1 U-28

1 JSTARS

1 E-3

Hopefully someone else has a more official tally!

Edited November 19, 2011 by Odium

[moto]

OFFUTT X 6

BUFF X 5

F-15E X 5

C-130 X 2 + 1 EA GRD & RES

MC X 2

TANKER X 2

AWACS

JSTARS

BONE

The Asset X 1

Edited November 20, 2011 by moto

[nsplayr]

That other aircraft X 1

Thanks for the love, asshole

[Yuengling Brother]

Did any of the top grads surprise anyone by not getting a fast mover, i.e. F-15E or B-1? Specifically, did a top grad get an RC-135?

[skinny]

Top grad in 12-02 got and wanted an RC. On the flip side, I had heard a bottom third guy dropped a 15.

[dudebro]

Top grad in 12-02 got and wanted an RC. On the flip side, I had heard a bottom third guy dropped a 15.

Checks.

[FlyingBull]

Did any of the top grads surprise anyone by not getting a fast mover, i.e. F-15E or B-1? Specifically, did a top grad get an RC-135?

I can only speak for my class, but only two of the four F-15E's we got went to the top third. And I'm pretty sure one of them went to the bottom third. I was in the top third and had no interest in Eagles or Bones. I know that community likes to think everyone wants to be them but that just isn't the case. Not bagging on them, just saying they don't seem to understand that not everyone wants what they want.

Edited November 24, 2011 by FlyingBull

[drewpey]

Good to see an even distribution.

I always saw the instructor corps as being fairly influential in "encouraging" students to go one way or the other. A good variety of instructors with war stories is always a good thing.

[Yuengling Brother]

The reason I asked was because someone from that class said he was #1 but didn't get the F-15E or B-1 that topped his list.

[theSituation]

Heard something about leadership down there requiring memos to be written by those who want mud hens. Any truth to this any why? Ego stroking?

[skinny]

Heard something about leadership down there requiring memos to be written by those who want mud hens. Any truth to this any why? Ego stroking?

True. Also, some had to write memos stating why they did NOT want them.

[nsplayr]

Dude, huge WTF on all this memo writing one way or the other.

Here's how it should work as an instructor: Ask stud to submit dream sheet. Work AFPC to get drop that matches stud's desires. After you get the drop, try to match airplanes to studs as well as you can. Proceed with drop night.

F these memos for specific airframes; here's a big lesson for every airframe out there - you're not that special! And this is coming from someone in AFSOC, we've got special right in the name. No one flying with a nav is that special. This isn't U-2s where you have to interview and do a flight demo; this isn't the god damn space shuttle.

If the #1 stud says he wants AWACS and you don't drop all your strike eagles until the bottom third so be it. Until rules are established like in some navy pilot pipelines (i.e. you have to have a minimum MASS to get airframe X), then it should be completely open and up to the particular class, the particular instructor, and what's available at the time.

If anyone on here is a P-cola instructor or a strike eagle guy and feels differently I'd honestly love to hear an explanation.

Edited November 29, 2011 by nsplayr

[FlyingBull]

The reason I asked was because someone from that class said he was #1 but didn't get the F-15E or B-1 that topped his list.

Two possibilities.

1. Dude wasn't number one and is blowing smoke up your ass

2. Dude was number one from his grades, but was such a douche nozzle his flight cc decided to fuck him sts

My flight commander was a Strike Eagle dude, he tried to encourage people ranked high to consider the F-15E but that was about it. He did his best to match people with the airframe of their choice according to class ranking. Almost everyone was happy with the results and I think everyone thought the process was fair. It was also transparent, if you wanted to know your no shit rank in the class he would tell you. Not all Flt/CC's did that leading to some people in other flights thinking they were ranked a bit higher than they probably were.

ETA: Another third possibility, atleast for the fighter, is if he failed the FACT.

Edited November 29, 2011 by FlyingBull

[theSituation]

Unfortunately, I dont think a lot of those attitudes will change until every single leadership position isn't held by three strike eagle guys and a bone guy. In my experience, I was on the verge of being ridiculed by leadership for not wanting to go the strike route. It's as if they took offense to it.

I also found it quite interesting that in my class and many of my bros in other classes that wanted 15s at the beginning of the year ended up not wanting them towards drop night. Number one reason for the change: they didn't like the people at the school house from that community.

I think instructors need to give students credit for having the SA to realize that while going fast and blowing stuff up is cool, not liking the people and the community/culture you're associated with will make life blow no matter what your job is.

Edited November 29, 2011 by theSituation

[Guest]

As for saying they didn't pick an airplane because of the school house IPs...that's some fucking weak sauce right there.

No student really has any SA whatsover about any "community". They have rumors and innuendo and opinons from a very small sample size. A student should pick the missions he/she wants and go after the aircraft type that will get them there and they'll never be unhappy.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Rainman A-10

[lazlo]

I agree the memo is bullshit, but how is it different from the one I had to write for the OTS WSO board, or the guys going for the ENJJPT board as well? It seems like this has been around a while, and I'm not sure what the use is.

Agreed on the school house IP comment above. Be careful judging a community by who they send back to teach at basic Nav school. In my experience, the sharpest dudes in the community don't go back to P-cola to teach. Thats what Ops-to-Ops, the FTU, and WIC are for.

Edited November 30, 2011 by lazlo

[FlyingBull]

As for saying they didn't pick an airplane because of the school house IPs...that's some fucking weak sauce right there.

No student really has any SA whatsover about any "community". They have rumors and innuendo and opinons from a very small sample size.

This is absolutely true. But if all the experience a stud has with a community is negative, then it shouldn't be shocking they get turned off to it.

A student should pick the missions he/she wants and go after the aircraft type that will get them there and they'll never be unhappy.

I completely agree. That's what I and the majority of people do/did. But again if all someone sees of the fighter community is ICSOs/IPs who are a bit on the tool side then that is the only data point they have.

This is not to say all Fighter instructors are douche bags. That certainly is NOT the case. Two of my favorite instructors came from that community, but a lot of their bros were complete tools. And I think those particular examples really stick in peoples minds as opposed to the good ones.

Edited November 30, 2011 by FlyingBull

[Guest]

This is not to say all Fighter instructors are douche bags. That certainly is NOT the case. Two of my favorite instructors came from that community, but a lot of their bros were complete tools. And I think those particular examples really stick in peoples minds as opposed to the good ones.

Same could be said about any so called community. Tools are easy to defeat, be better at the job than they are.

All that really matters what it looks like from the inside of the aircraft looking out, not the other way around.

Mission above all else will provide satisfaction.

[theSituation]

Same could be said about any so called community. Tools are easy to defeat, be better at the job than they are.

All that really matters what it looks like from the inside of the aircraft looking out, not the other way around.

Mission above all else will provide satisfaction.

That's a very solid point. However, I don't think that mentality is as common as it should be amongst students. Also, I didn't see many instructors selling that idea either. Maybe that's the point of the memos being written. To see if the students writing them have that concept understood.

[Odium]

It's easy to say students should pick an AC based on the mission - but how are students supposed to have SA on what the mission is actually like besides limited interaction with members of that community instructing?

[bronxbomber252]

Another thing to consider is what life is like in the given community (deployments, crew dynamic, how much flying time etc...) I know there are airframes I was interested in that I lost interest in after finding out what it is really like to fly on them, what the culture is like etc... and there are airframes that I could have cared less about but upon learning more about how life is like on them I became interested.

As for the letters, I like how my flight is doing it, we each have to turn in a memo saying what our first choice is (whatever that may be) and why we want it/why we would be good on it. There really hasn't been any pressure to go to any specific airframe (Flt/CC is a JStars guy and the CV is a F-15E WSO)

[FlyingBull]

Same could be said about any so called community. Tools are easy to defeat, be better at the job than they are.

All that really matters what it looks like from the inside of the aircraft looking out, not the other way around.

Mission above all else will provide satisfaction.

Again I completely agree. I also don't think anyone made dream sheet decisions based solely on instructors they met. But if someone was teetering on what to choose then I'm sure it would have some effect.

CSOs also have a bit of an advantage over their Pilot bros in getting to know different aircraft's missions. Due to the setup of the syllabus as well as having access to classified information and the much dreaded integration exercise. I went in wanting fighters but by the time I was done with the T-6 phase I had decided what I really wanted was AFSOC thanks to the information I had available to me to learn more about the mission of AFSOC platforms. Similarly I don't think anyone went in wanting RC-135s, but after getting to know about the mission it became a pretty sought after aircraft in my class.

[Yuengling Brother]

It's easy to say students should pick an AC based on the mission - but how are students supposed to have SA on what the mission is actually like besides limited interaction with members of that community instructing?

Right down the road is AFSOC HQ. Hurlburt is also home to the 4 SOS. One of the largest combat flying squadrons in the Air Force. Call the squadron, arrange to meet non-instructor crewmembers who will give you another viewpoint. Tour the plane, squadron, etc. Other than flying an actual training line, this would give any student a pretty good glimps of the AC community. The great thing is, the 4th flies most of their training lines at night making it easy to head over there after class and finding someone willing to speak to you.

[nsplayr]

Right down the road is AFSOC HQ. Hurlburt is also home to the 4 SOS. One of the largest combat flying squadrons in the Air Force. Call the squadron, arrange to meet non-instructor crewmembers who will give you another viewpoint. Tour the plane, squadron, etc. Other than flying an actual training line, this would give any student a pretty good glimps of the AC community. The great thing is, the 4th flies most of their training lines at night making it easy to head over there after class and finding someone willing to speak to you.

Same goes for the 319th and 34th and I'm assuming the 15th would be game as well. There was no such opportunity at RND, so if CSO studs want AFSOC don't be afraid to reach out and try to learn more since we're right down the road.

[nolandaman]

From what I was told about the memos for F-15E's, they had a bunch of people washing out for various reasons at the centrifuge/FTU/etc and then saying they didn't even want the 15 in the first place. They needed to fill back up some of those slots and the memo was simply to help get a better gauge of what people wanted and why. It wasn't just because someone wanted their ego stroked.

For most of us the IP's are the only introduction we have to any community so what they say and do is what we are left to judge the community on. Occasionally they bring airframes in and you get a real chance to see it and ask the crew questions, but that is rare. When they brought the B-1 in it totally reaffirmed everything I thought and made me want it that much more. I would venture to guess that watching briefs on other airframes would increase my interest there as well.

Unfortunately many of the IPs have been teaching for long enough that they aren't even up to date on what the community is like now in terms of deployments and such. For some airframes we get tons of good info and for others nothing. You have to make your decisions based on the information you have, even if it is outdated or even inaccurate.

Surprisingly many students take no time to even try and find other information so they are even more likely to be misguided.