Classic Thread - Security Forces (SFS) Tales

[SuperWSO]

One more skycop story...

A buddy of mine is getting ready to deploy to Afghanistan on a 365-day deployment. Among the requirements, he is supposed to bring an M4 in addition to an M9. I'm working his deployment from our XP shop, and we attempt to find an M4 for him since our group doesn't have one. We call the host SFS to see if they have M4s, and they say the do, although they can't loan us one because these weapons are required for base defense. So we bring it up to our AG/CC and he says "basically, they are telling us our guy going to Afghanistan to fight in a real war can't have an M4, because they need them here to defend Mulberry?". We elevate the issue to the BW/CC and we're still told no. In the end, we send him downrange with a GAU-5, similar to an M4 but not exactly what he needed.

The main problem I had with the SFS dudes was their attitude. They were very, very serious about the need to keep those weapons in Abilene, TX, and didn't even blink when they vomited that BS about the need for "base defense". Yes, I hear Abilene TX has a serious al Qaeda threat...

I'm glad to see the folks at Dyess have taken a pro-active approach to the problem. I say this because the same thing happened when I picked up a 180 to Baghdad departing in Sep 2007. Skycops could not spare a single M-4. LRS had to do a hostage swap involving three separate bases to get me an M-4. Clearly, they identified that they needed the other 150 or so M-4s to prevent an invasion by the incredibly friendly population of West Texas. At least they went ahead and fixed the problem so it would never happen again... never mind.

[contraildash]

I get to post a double story, and the Navy gets a role in this one.

I'm TDY down at Keesler, lots of young enlisted folks here due to the tech schools. Now it's my own observation that the more young enlisted folks at a base due to tech schools, the more the SFS pull ridiculous shit. (SFS wouldn't let me on base at Sheppard because I didn't have stickers on my car...even though every other base pretty much had done away with stickers. Even got lectured about it from their NOIC at the visitors center)

Anyways, my wife and I go out for dinner and realize that she forgot her purse back in the lodge. No big deal, it was a weekday and they are only checking all ID's on the weekends. We get back to the gate and the gate guard won't let me on base because she doesn't have an ID. I propose a few solutions to include leaving her at the gate and me getting her ID. No big deal in my mind. The guy just stands there..you can tell the gears are turning but nothing is working. Finally he drops this line on me: "You are a lieutenant, why the hell would you think bringing someone on base without an ID was a good idea???" First off, she's not a hooker, she's my wife, secondly let me just go get the damn ID.

The next story, just last night, we were over at NAS Pensacola to hit the beach for a few days. As I found out, the Navy is VERY big on having DoD stickers on your car. I got to play 20 questions with the guard before he let me back on base. Meanwhile, about 10 cars went through full of non military folks going to check out the museum.

This brings up a few things that have bothered me. Whats more important...the person or a damn sticker? (also see my previous post on registration stickers)

But the biggest issue I have is that in my dealings with SF I feel more like they are here to police us rather than protect us. Joe blow civilian can get on a base to check out the museum yet hell freezes over if I, as an active duty officer, try to drive a car without stickers on base....or a wife without an ID.

[FallingOsh]

Similar story from Sheppard when the wife didn't have her ID...

The SF dude says I can go ahead on base, with my wife, but I have to leave my ID with him. After we get done shopping, I should go home, get her ID, and return to the gate. After showing him her ID, I can get mine back.

You may be asking yourself, WTF? I know, right.

He was going to let us on base anyway... keeping my ID (which meant I couldn't buy anything at the BX)... and then come back hours later with hers... in order to get mine back... simply stunning (alex trebek voice)

[lj35driver]

I thought we got rid of stickers due to a DoD wide policy stating that having them on our vehicles was counter-productive to force protection. Now I hear the Army and Navy are requiring them to drive your vehicle onto their facilities at the joint bases such as Charleston, McChord, and Ft Dix. WTF guys, it's a joint facility so have a common access policy.

ContrailDash- that BS is all too normal for Keesler. Even the civillian guards try creating and enforcing policies of their own. They attempted to require your vehicle to have a current inspection sticker from the state it was tagged in. A MS one was't good enough for them. Look out for the local cops while you're there too. The city of Biloxi loves making revenue off the military. Almost 40% of the Biloxi Police force are former SF, so they've got a hard on for ticketing the military every chance they get. At one time, we had a third of the sqd get tickets all in the same week.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

I thought we got rid of stickers due to a DoD wide policy stating that having them on our vehicles was counter-productive to force protection. Now I hear the Army and Navy are requiring them to drive your vehicle onto their facilities at the joint bases such as Charleston, McChord, and Ft Dix. WTF guys, it's a joint facility so have a common access policy.

ContrailDash- that BS is all too normal for Keesler. Even the civillian guards try creating and enforcing policies of their own. They attempted to require your vehicle to have a current inspection sticker from the state it was tagged in. A MS one was't good enough for them. Look out for the local cops while you're there too. The city of Biloxi loves making revenue off the military. Almost 40% of the Biloxi Police force are former SF, so they've got a hard on for ticketing the military every chance they get. At one time, we had a third of the sqd get tickets all in the same week.

I noticed that while I was attending the Air Advisor Course at Fort Dix. For those of you not familiar with Dix/McGuire AFB, the two bases adjoin each other. There is a gate between the two...I mean, you literally drive from one to the other. Strangely enough, having a DoD sticker and ID to get onto Dix (yes, they do check at their gates) isn't good enough to get onto McGuire. Each day, despite wearing a USAF officer's uniform and having already been checked by the US Army, the USAF cops would check my ID driving from Dix onto McGuire. It's insanely stupid.

Second, I've run into a couple gate guards that tried pulling the inspection sticker non-sense. I do know that if I don't live in Texas but have a Texas-registered vehicle, I am not required to maintain a Texas inspection sticker. I am required to get the vehicle inspected within a certain window after returning to Texas. Each state of residence has different requirements. Some states require that although your car is tagged from out-of-state, you must have a local inspection (or a current inspection from your legal state of residence where the vehicle is licensed). But there are many states that don't even have an inspection program...Alabama and Arkansas are two right off the bat.

So in your scenario, if you're TDY from AL or AR, what do you do? Even if you're a resident of said states, there's no requirement for an inspection sticker.

Know the laws and that's the best way to fight off the madness.

[sirjrod00]

There were 4 of us in a car the other night coming back on to base here at Kirtland...the civilian gate guards check one ID and then they let us on with no problem. On our way to billeting, while we were on base, we get flagged down with flashlights by a road block of sky cops. They have the road blocked off and are doing 100% ID checks. Not 100% ID checks to get on base, but 100% ID checks by a road block on base. WTF?

[Guest Hueypilot812]

If the cops just got a bug in their ass to block off a road, that would be 100% iligal...they were directed to do this, by the WG/CC, you should at least focus your spontaneous anger on the person who decided to accomplish it, not the poor dude who most likely hates being out there in the first place.

I agree. Some of the stories I have posted here and others have mentioned are the result of a few individual cops taking themselves way too seriously or just overreacting (ie, surrounding my two toddler kids and I on the flight line with weapons out, despite me wearing a flight suit and having my line badge displayed...and if you haven't read the story, yes I did call the right people prior to stepping).

But many of the POLICIES you see them enforcing (ie, speed traps, checking IDs at random points on base despite not checking it at the gate, searches, telling people they aren't authorized on a visiting AFB, etc) are the results of leadership, either with the local wing or with the OIC/NCOIC of the cop squadron. Most A1C cops aren't the type to run off and start making policy on their own...if something dumb comes out of their mouth, no doubt they heard it somewhere else...either a fellow senior cop or their leadership.

My suggestion is if you see something idiotic, at least bring it up to the OIC of the SFS. If they parrot the company line (and some will), then bring it up to the wing leadership (ie, what specifically is the reason why I can't drive from Ft Dix onto McGuire, despite Dix having the same security measures that McGuire has?). If an individual cop does or says something you feel isn't right, bring it up to their NCOIC or OIC...if it appears they aren't willing to fix the issue, then just elevate it.

Meanwhile, keep posting the stories here...although frustrating, many are amusing too.

[MCO]

Waiting to get on base this morning, the dude in front of me was chatting it up with the civilian gate guard, so I was just sitting there slowly getting frustrated. Then I hear the 2 skycops behind him talking, an airman and an NCO. The airman says "I don't really like giving out tickets." The NCO says "I used to be like that but now I love it."

At that point I rolled my eyes and pulled forward.

[sky_king]

As I was driving on base last night, I saw on SF dude checking IDs while a 3 striper was yelling at a 2 striper standing at attention. Thought to myself, "hmmm, punishing in public. These guys are even dicks to themselves."

[Beaver]

The dumbest officer I ever met was a SF guy in my SOS class. He failed SOS in correspondence twice so they thought he might absorb the material better if he went in residence. He the first test and barely passed the second. It wasn't for a lack of trying, either. He studied with a tutor from our flight every night for at least an hour. He just couldn't learn. I think he got an online bachelor's while he was enlisted; there's no way he could graduate from college.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

I wanted to add this too...

Was driving off base the other day through LRAFB's main gate, and saw a skycop getting out of a patrol car and walking over to the gate house. He had on his tactical vest and a bunch of other gear, along with a freakin' ski mask. WTF? Is he going to rob a bank? I know it's getting colder over here with the front coming through and all, but holy $hit!

[outbreak]

Sorry, guys. I gotta tell the one good SF story in history.

Coming on to Dyess around 0700. I get all the way to the circle and see the Skycops completely blocking the road and diverting everyone into the chapel parking lot. I pull into a parking spot as marshalled, and a SRA Skycop comes up to my window. "Sir, I'm Airman Skycop. We're conducting random [bullshit] checks for driver's license, vehicle registration and insurance this morning. I need your license, registration, and proof of insurance."

I'm not happy about this crap, but I'm usually pretty easy going, so I'm not making a big deal of it. I produce all the requested documents, and tell him, "It looks like my insurance card expired yesterday, and I forgot to print off the new one. I have insurance, I just forgot to print the new card."

He starts off his spiel about how since my insurance card is out of date he has to give me a citation, blah blah blah... I'm sure I'm getting a ticket, and I'm gonna have to bring that into my new FLT/CC who I just met, and I'm pretty sure thinks I'm a brand new from the FTU moron.

Then SRA Skycop says, "But, sir, I know USAA updates their coverage automatically, so I'm sure it's good. I'll let you off today, but you really need to print that new card."

I was shocked. I thanked him, returned his salute as I pulled out of the space and even smiled when the SFS Capt gave me the stink eye as I was driving around the lot. That one kid actually has some common sense and knows how to apply it.

Edited October 6, 2009 by outbreak

[pawnman]

But the biggest issue I have is that in my dealings with SF I feel more like they are here to police us rather than protect us. Joe blow civilian can get on a base to check out the museum yet hell freezes over if I, as an active duty officer, try to drive a car without stickers on base....or a wife without an ID.

The Museum deal actually worked in my buddies favor one day...he'd forgotten his ID in the computer the day before. Showed up at the gate, in uniform, and told the cops what had happened. "We can't let you in without an ID sir". My buddy, thinking quickly, said "In that case, I'm going to the Museum, here's my driver's license". Sure enough, they put him down on the Museum list and let him in.

[Boxhead]

the person who came up with the idea is a complete asshat.

Well, there we agree.

All of the RAMs (or whatever they are calling them these days) that get put out there and are prosecuted by SF are directly driven by the WG/CC, it HAS to be that way, or it is illegal. You can't target a specific place/squadron/etc...well, you can, but there needs to be pre-existing probable cause. Similar for the RAMS, if a cop just decides that he needs to check your car because your wife is wearing a short skirt and he wants a better look, and your bag of crack is tucked into the dead hooker's shirt pocket in your trunk...that will all get thrown out due to the fact it was found during an unlawful search with no probable cause. The "randomness" of a check as directed by the WG/CC takes away that probable cause requirement.

Now that I think about it, the annoying part of the whole process comes from JAG.

[HU&W]

I was pulled over this morning on the way to the gym with lights and siren. I pulled into a parking spot and the SP boxed me in. I wasn't sure of the reason since I follow all the speed limits/etc exactly. After 10 minutes of waiting, he got out of his car and came to my window. After I gave him the requested license, ID, and insurance he stood there looking at it for the longest time. "The reason I pulled you over sir is one of the lights in the front of your car is out." I responded that I didn't realize my headlights were on and asked which light was out. After a moment's reflection he answered, "it's one of your daytime running lights." I asked if daytime running lights were required. He thought for a moment, handed back my ID and documents and said, "no, I just wanted you to know, you're free to go."

[Flare]

Not 100% ID checks to get on base, but 100% ID checks by a road block on base. WTF?

Same reason they put 100% ID checks going OFF base on weekend evenings/nights.....they're smelling you for alcohol. The ID check is just their ticket to get you to stop and roll the window down.

[Guest herkgrrl]

Sweeping generalizations only come from people having multiple issues with the same relatively small group of people. My cousin was one of the random exceptions to the SF rule. He is incredibly bright, (he is now a micro-chip engineer for intel), and an all around great guy. Spent 6 years as a cop. He was one of the reasons I decided to join. I still remember the conversation I had with him where he pleaded with me not to become a cop. Literally, got on his knees and begged. I didn't understand at first, but did within my first 5 flights at Little Rock.

I was starting engines, my instructor was all of 8 feet from me, with his linebadge proudly displayed, when I feel a tap on my shoulder. I had just cleared #2 to start and look over expecting to see my instructor. Guess what, I have Amn Joe Blow standing with his 9mm drawn and SSgt Brainless Idiot leaning across the hood of their truck staring at me down the barrel of his M16. I freely admit that I nearly emptied my bowels at this point. About this time, the pilot is screaming "What the Eff are those chuckleheads doing! Do they not see the engines?!" My instructor turns around and goes bug-eyed. Amn JB starts screaming something at me, of course I have no idea what he is saying. He starts waving at the pilot and gives him the cut engines sign. After the crew cuts engines, these super troopers start interrogating me about where my line badge is. My instructor about had a coronary. He tried to explain to them that students aren't issued linebadges, they don't get them until their first duty station. At this point, Amn JB began pulling out cuffs, stating that I was not authorized on the flightline and must go in for interrogation because I didn't have a linebadge. My instructor then quoted the regs stating that he was escorting me and I was a non-issue. Super trooper just smirked and said, "Those are Aircrew regs, they don't apply to cops." At this point, my pilot came unglued, ran screaming out of the plane, and all I remember him saying was Eff repeatedly and with great vehemence. The pilot eventually scared off the chuckle-heads. He then turns to me and says, "We're cranking now. Don't you dare call ORM." My cousin just laughed after I told him that story at christmas and asked, "Aren't you glad you aren't a cop?"

[stract]

back on topic...I was a 2LT at Mother Rucker going through SUPT-H...one morning, I was driving from the Ozark Gate to Lowe Army Heliport, which takes some fairly un-travelled roads on base. I was going 5 mph over the speed limit and got pulled over on a blind curve. Cop sat for 5 minutes before coming up to talk to me. Of course, my USAA insurance card was expired and I hadn't printed out the new one, so he said, "I don't feel like giving you two tickets; go slower and print out a new insurance card." I was speechless...and grateful! So far, that experience has offset the bad ones I've had with SF.

[Guest harleyusaf]

Sorry, guys. I gotta tell the one good SF story in history.

Coming on to Dyess around 0700. I get all the way to the circle and see the Skycops completely blocking the road and diverting everyone into the chapel parking lot. I pull into a parking spot as marshalled, and a SRA Skycop comes up to my window. "Sir, I'm Airman Skycop. We're conducting random [bullshit] checks for driver's license, vehicle registration and insurance this morning. I need your license, registration, and proof of insurance."

I'm not happy about this crap, but I'm usually pretty easy going, so I'm not making a big deal of it. I produce all the requested documents, and tell him, "It looks like my insurance card expired yesterday, and I forgot to print off the new one. I have insurance, I just forgot to print the new card."

He starts off his spiel about how since my insurance card is out of date he has to give me a citation, blah blah blah... I'm sure I'm getting a ticket, and I'm gonna have to bring that into my new FLT/CC who I just met, and I'm pretty sure thinks I'm a brand new from the FTU moron.

Then SRA Skycop says, "But, sir, I know USAA updates their coverage automatically, so I'm sure it's good. I'll let you off today, but you really need to print that new card."

I was shocked. I thanked him, returned his salute as I pulled out of the space and even smiled when the SFS Capt gave me the stink eye as I was driving around the lot. That one kid actually has some common sense and knows how to apply it.

I don't have a problem with the patrolman not issuing you a citation, however to be perfectly frank I would have issued you one. The problem with not giving a ticket in this scenario is that the patrolman is trusting you to replace your insurance card (rhetorical question - did you replace your insurance card?). The problem with trusting an individual to get something replaced is that 99% of the time they won't do it. If you don't issue a citation to an individual with a broken headlight, guess who you will see a week later...With a broken headlight. The majority of times I did not issue a citation, I would see the same individual with the same problem sometime later. The ticket for this type of situation is called a "fix-it" ticket; you have 7 calendar days to replace whatever was wrong with your vehicle (headlights, insurance cards, etc.). As soon as you provide evidence of your replacement, it's as if the citation never happened.

To comment further on random ID checks on base IAW RAMs: I think this is a great policy. When personnel come through the gate, they know what they have to provide and what they can "hide" when pulling through the gate. When you are on base, however, people tend to let their guard down. This is the prime time for calling someone's bluff, so to speak. When people somehow smuggle unauthorized people or items on base (caught an individual who snuck someone on base - when questioned how, he admitted to putting them in their trunk) you can catch it. The bottom line is people do silly things when they suspect no one is watching, which is the point of the random ID checks on base.

Events such as random ID checks or random RAB checks all tie into some of the policies implemented that seem a little strange. When I was a brand new Airman, I was working with another Airman who was showing me the ropes of the entry controller position to the flightline. Major Snuffy, in uniform, told the entry controller that he had forgotten his wallet at home (which included his ID card, RAB, etc.). After some thought, the entry controller gave in to the Major's pressure and let him in. Well, it just so happens that Major Snuffy decided to accidentally penetrate a restricted area, which initiated a helping hand on the flightline. When Major Snuffy was challenged, guess what he didn't have? That's right, an ID card or a RAB. Long story short - The entry controller, the flightline supervisor, and the installation entry controller all received paperwork because they wanted to be "nice guys". So please keep this in mind the next time you ask why someone won't let you on without proper identification, even though it may seem silly.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

So please keep this in mind the next time you ask why someone won't let you on without proper identification, even though it may seem silly.

When you were being "shown the ropes", was it standard procedure to apprehend an aircrew member in uniform, wearing a RAB, escorting two children that were 3 and 4 years of age, with weapons drawn, using about a dozen cops?

Or force a guy (in a flight suit, and obviously aircrew) to delete the photos on his camera of a C-130 that happened to be flying over the installation, while tourists take photos of the static-display of the very same type of aircraft only a few hundred feet away? I understand no pics of the flightline, but I didn't know the flightline extended into space as well.

No one denies there are certain security protocols in place to protect the integrity of an installation, and in fact on every occasion when I forgot my ID and/or RAB I did the right thing and went home to get my IDs or didn't enter the flightline. But I think much of this thread is focused on some of the non-sensical actions of certain SFS members.

[BFM this]

To comment further on random ID checks on base IAW RAMs: I think this is a great policy. When personnel come through the gate, they know what they have to provide and what they can "hide" when pulling through the gate. When you are on base, however, people tend to let their guard down. This is the prime time for calling someone's bluff, so to speak. When people somehow smuggle unauthorized people or items on base (caught an individual who snuck someone on base - when questioned how, he admitted to putting them in their trunk) you can catch it. The bottom line is people do silly things when they suspect no one is watching, which is the point of the random ID checks on base.

So, let me TRY to get this straight. RAM's are to there to catch the stuff that got into the front gate in the first place. Not for security. (my surprised face here)

Common sense goes a long way. For instance, I totally agree with you that there was a CS breakdown when you let someone through an ECP without a line badge (actually, I think line badges are silly and every military person on the flightline should have a 9mm on their hip, but I digress).

But when you play a game of "gotcha!" with some Amn who sneaks his gf on base for overnight nookie; WHOGAF?

[Guest Jollygreen]

Outstanding job of removing any positive thing ever stated about USAF SF on this thread. There wasn't much, but you just succeeded in eliminating most of it.

I don't have a problem with the patrolman not issuing you a citation, however to be perfectly frank I would have issued you one.

He is an Airman in service to his country. Not a patrolman.

I had a long tirade on the rest of your post, but believe it isn't worth the effort. Unfortunately some of our USAF SF leadership fails to understand the concept of judgment. They instead depend on strict rules that prohibit thought and use of their own decision making skills. I truly believe many of our younger SF Airmen would make the mission their focus if they were allowed the opportunity.

[Vertigo]

I don't have a problem with the patrolman not issuing you a citation, however to be perfectly frank I would have issued you one. The problem with not giving a ticket in this scenario is that the patrolman is trusting you to replace your insurance card (rhetorical question - did you replace your insurance card?). The problem with trusting an individual to get something replaced is that 99% of the time they won't do it. If you don't issue a citation to an individual with a broken headlight, guess who you will see a week later...With a broken headlight. The majority of times I did not issue a citation, I would see the same individual with the same problem sometime later. The ticket for this type of situation is called a "fix-it" ticket; you have 7 calendar days to replace whatever was wrong with your vehicle (headlights, insurance cards, etc.). As soon as you provide evidence of your replacement, it's as if the citation never happened.

Choke yourself.

You are called SECURITY forces, not hall monitors. SECURE the installation... issuing tickets for broken headlights, pulling someone over for jogging without a reflective belt, monitoring the BX parking lot for someone parked over the line does not = keeping the base from being overrun by Al Qaeda or Timothy McVeighs.

[tac airlifter]

The problem with not giving a ticket in this scenario is that the patrolman is trusting you to replace your insurance card (rhetorical question - did you replace your insurance card?). The problem with trusting an individual to get something replaced is that 99% of the time they won't do it. If you don't issue a citation to an individual with a broken headlight, guess who you will see a week later...With a broken headlight.

Standard SF bullshit. We are professional members of the USAF, not average joe yokle civilian. If you see the same guy a week later with a broken headlight, give him a ticket then... why is that hard? And if a commissioned officer can be trusted with an aircraft and ordnance and killing bad dudes and top secret shit, he (or she) can certainly be trusted to print a new card.

Edited October 8, 2009 by tac airlifter

[outbreak]

Thanks, guys. I was gonna say the same thing about why I didn't get a ticket. I actually thought that SrA had some of his own judgement. I'm glad I found out he's a bad cop.

Just out of curiosity, harleyusaf, how many people do you pull over for not having a PT shirt tucked in or for not stopping for at least 3 seconds at every stop sign?

And yes, I did print my insurance card. Thanks for taking an officer for his word.