Ex-Army guy going to UPT

[Guest Rail26]

a

Edited November 5, 2010 by Rail26

[HuggyU2]

Are you going to go thru the Fixed Wing Qual program? If it still exists, I recall it was only around 6-7 months.

And I'm guessing you got your Army Fixed Wing rating via Flight Safety, or something like that?

[usaf36031]

If it meant not going to UPT,or at least minimizing my exposure to it, I would definitely care.

[Guest Rail26]

Are you going to go thru the Fixed Wing Qual program? If it still exists, I recall it was only around 6-7 months.

And I'm guessing you got your Army Fixed Wing rating via Flight Safety, or something like that?

Unfortunately, my fixed wing ratings came from Flight Safety. I know that is looked upon as "no training", but it is what it is. I have no idea if the Fixed Wing Qual program still exists. Rumor was a few Army helo guys had a tough time with it and now we "Army Aviators" need to attend the whole thing. I'm looking for someone who recently went through this so they can clue me in...I talked to the school house and didn't get very far with them. Any ideas on where I can go for information?

If it meant not going to UPT,or at least minimizing my exposure to it, I would definitely care.

Not real happy about it, but I am thanking the gods that the AF let me into the club. I have 8 more years left until 20, so my pain threshold is set high to accomplish that elusive retirement.

[Pancake]

Unfortunately, my fixed wing ratings came from Flight Safety. I know that is looked upon as "no training", but it is what it is. I have no idea if the Fixed Wing Qual program still exists. Rumor was a few Army helo guys had a tough time with it and now we "Army Aviators" need to attend the whole thing. I'm looking for someone who recently went through this so they can clue me in...I talked to the school house and didn't get very far with them. Any ideas on where I can go for information?

Not real happy about it, but I am thanking the gods that the AF let me into the club. I have 8 more years left until 20, so my pain threshold is set high to accomplish that elusive retirement.

Whichever program you attend, IMO, the best approach is to acknowledge your aviation experience, however do not give the IPs/flight commander a reason to believe you think you don't need to be in UPT. In my own UPT experience, students with extensive flying experience/ratings who think they (or do) know more than the IPs are targeted for extra scrutiny/harassment, and in some cases wash out. It's usually never skill and almost always attitude. Just get along with everyone in your class, mentor them, and always appear to have a willingness to learn from your IPs (especially FAIPs), even if you know your IP is full of s&it. The Air Force does things differently than the Army and you'll pick up some good nuggets/techniques through your program.

Good luck!

[Guest Rail26]

Whichever program you attend, IMO, the best approach is to acknowledge your aviation experience, however do not give the IPs/flight commander a reason to believe you think you don't need to be in UPT. In my own UPT experience, students with extensive flying experience/ratings who think they (or do) know more than the IPs are targeted for extra scrutiny/harassment, and in some cases wash out. It's usually never skill and almost always attitude. Just get along with everyone in your class, mentor them, and always appear to have a willingness to learn from your IPs (especially FAIPs), even if you know your IP is full of s&it. The Air Force does things differently than the Army and you'll pick up some good nuggets/techniques through your program.

Good luck!

Sounds good. I will be the quiet guy in the back trying to keep up with the young kids...I am more concerned with getting through the program and back to real life. Any pilot that thinks they know everything and is unwilling to learn will be the next dead one.

Do both programs still exist?

[BigFreddie]

My info is two years old but I left UPT as the fixed wing qual flight commander in the T-1 squadron. One of the students there had 6,000 hours of fixed wing time and actually got hired by Northwest while in T-1 training - yet the AF made him go through the FWQ program. At the time, the T-6 program was fairly fast paced - done in three, maybe four months. T-1s were a little less forgiving - you had to do all the academics which made you first couple months slower due to scheduling restrictions and contracts with the civilian instructors. Once through that you would be pushed as fast as you could handle it and you were able to proficiency advance as able. Some guys were spending 4 months in the T-1 program if they went fairly fast. There were hints AETC was going to create a completely separate T-1 FWQ syllabus but that hadn't happened when I left in Nov 08.

I had really, really good students. They realized that a lot of UPT was a game. They also recognized there were important parts as well where they needed to be on their game. Many issues came from adapting from Army/FAA rules to USAF rules. Once guys quit fighting the fact that the rules were different they did very well. Approach it like a professional aviator and it will be a good time. Approach it like you're entitled to a set of AF wings and you're only checking the box - and you will not have a good time...

BF

[Guest Hueypilot812]

I think any issues with FWQ was who they picked to put in the slots. I was a former ARNG helo pilot and went through the full UPT program. Back in 2000, you needed at least 1,000 military hours to qualify for the FWQ course, which I did not have. AFRC/ANG units had much more leeway with who to put in the slots, and I knew one dude from my former ARNG unit (helo only) that did the T-1 only course. He eventually SIE'd because it was too overwhelming. First, I knew the guy somewhat well and he wasn't the sharpest knife. Second, putting a helo-only dude into the T-1 short course was a dumb mistake on his gaining unit (AFRC Herks).

For what it's worth, with your experience, you'll do just fine whether you do FWQ or UPT. You should easily qualify for FWQ because even though the 2,500 FW hours doesn't count towards a FW qualification, it counts as total mil flight time, which is what they use to determine if you're eligible for FWQ. Last I heard they had consolidated FWQ at one or two locations...but it's been 10 years since I was in UPT. I was a 300-ish helo-only guy that did the full-up UPT program and I did fine...graduated as DG. Having an instrument rating already was money.

Only advice I'd have for you is let go of the Army way of doing things...the Army is very aligned with the FAA way of operating. The USAF has it's own little world on how they expect you to fly instruments, etc, so just learn their way and press on. Get used to having a wheelbarrow-load of publications and regulations. Gone are the days of having a thin AR 95-1, a FAR/AIM and your -10 as the only real directives (from what I remember, the FMs were not considered regulatory). Now that you're USAF, even the amount of time you require to be off NVGs to dark adapt will be prefaced with "thall shalt", etc.

Just get along with everyone in your class, mentor them, and always appear to have a willingness to learn from your IPs (especially FAIPs), even if you know your IP is full of s&it.

Just be prepared for the occasional new FAIP (First Assignment Instructor Pilot...ie, Lts who finished UPT and became IPs) to say something about your wings. Most non-prior mil aviation guys that enter UPT are hammered with the mindset that wings are hard-earned (and they are), and they might not get the idea that you already earned your Army/AF helo wings.

I had Army aviator wings on my UPT name tag. I caught shit for it a few times...I can remember the young 1Lt FAIPs asking "why do you have wings on? Are you authorized to wear those?" Most were pretty cool about it but like I said, there were a few assholes. One guy in a few classes behind me had his Army wings converted to AF helo-only wings and wow, he caught a lot of shit! One FAIP went so far as to say he shouldn't be allowed to wear them until he completed the course. Maybe things are different now but I doubt it. Anyways, that dude got spun up about it pretty bad and it pissed him off...I just say let it go. If they say something, just go "I earned them" and leave it at that.

[BQZip01]

Just be prepared for the occasional new FAIP (First Assignment Instructor Pilot...ie, Lts who finished UPT and became IPs) to say something about your wings. Most non-prior mil aviation guys that enter UPT are hammered with the mindset that wings are hard-earned (and they are), and they might not get the idea that you already earned your Army/AF helo wings.

I had Army aviator wings on my UPT name tag. I caught shit for it a few times...I can remember the young 1Lt FAIPs asking "why do you have wings on? Are you authorized to wear those?" Most were pretty cool about it but like I said, there were a few assholes. One guy in a few classes behind me had his Army wings converted to AF helo-only wings and wow, he caught a lot of shit! One FAIP went so far as to say he shouldn't be allowed to wear them until he completed the course. Maybe things are different now but I doubt it. Anyways, that dude got spun up about it pretty bad and it pissed him off...I just say let it go. If they say something, just go "I earned them" and leave it at that.

Good luck in UPT/FWQ. I think your extra experience will prove invaluable, just don't flaunt it and you'll be fine. If someone asks about your wings, be matter-of-fact about it, don't make a big deal about it, play the game, and soon you'll be in "the club". If someone thinks you haven't earned them, tell them they "can kiss your hairiest nut (that would be the left one according to your mom)." You earned those wings and shouldn't have to justify wearing a properly earned military rating. Take classes seriously and you'll be fine.

Where are you going for UPT?

[Hacker]

I had Army aviator wings on my UPT name tag. I caught shit for it a few times...I can remember the young 1Lt FAIPs asking "why do you have wings on? Are you authorized to wear those?" Most were pretty cool about it but like I said, there were a few assholes. One guy in a few classes behind me had his Army wings converted to AF helo-only wings and wow, he caught a lot of shit! One FAIP went so far as to say he shouldn't be allowed to wear them until he completed the course. Maybe things are different now but I doubt it. Anyways, that dude got spun up about it pretty bad and it pissed him off...I just say let it go. If they say something, just go "I earned them" and leave it at that.

Hopefully those FAIPs were heavily shit-on by the MWS IPs. I know if I saw that act out of one of the FAIPs in my squadron, we'd have a little mentorship session on the side about what they've 'earned' so far in their career.

[BQZip01]

Hopefully those FAIPs were heavily shit-on by the MWS IPs. I know if I saw that act out of one of the FAIPs in my squadron, we'd have a little mentorship session on the side about what they've 'earned' so far in their career.

Reminds me of the FAIP who tried to tell me how it was in the "real Air Force" (5 years and 2 Middle East deployments prior to UPT); this little pissant JUST finished becoming a FAIP and had been in "not quite 2 years". Good news, I pulled him aside later and had a quiet conversation. He was one of those guys who could accept criticism and we're still friends to this day.

[slacker]

Reminds me of the FAIP who tried to tell me how it was in the "real Air Force" (5 years and 2 Middle East deployments prior to UPT); this little pissant JUST finished becoming a FAIP and had been in "not quite 2 years". Good news, I pulled him aside later and had a quiet conversation. He was one of those guys who could accept criticism and we're still friends to this day.

How many slides did it take for your "quiet conversation?"

Edited September 14, 2010 by slacker

[BADFNZ]

FWQ still exists as of right now but there have been talks of eliminating it.

[Guest Crew Report]

Reminds me of the FAIP who tried to tell me how it was in the "real Air Force" (5 years and 2 Middle East deployments prior to UPT); this little pissant JUST finished becoming a FAIP and had been in "not quite 2 years". Good news, I pulled him aside later and had a quiet conversation. He was one of those guys who could accept criticism and we're still friends to this day.

Aren't you a Nav?

[BQZip01]

Aren't you a Nav?

I am. Also a UPT nongraduate. I'm not going to pretend to know what it takes to graduate, but I certainly relate experiences that have a bearing on the subject at hand (in this case, ridiculous FAIPs).

How many slides did it take for your "quiet conversation?"

6...but there there was the intro slide, an overview...

Edited September 15, 2010 by BQZip01

[Spoo]

6...but there there was the intro slide, an overview...

Please tell me you had a "Why are we here?" slide.

[disgruntledemployee]

...

One guy in a few classes behind me had his Army wings converted to AF helo-only wings and wow, he caught a lot of shit! One FAIP went so far as to say he shouldn't be allowed to wear them until he completed the course.

Must have been compensating for his small dick.

Out

[25mmCrowd_Pleaser]

I am. Also a UPT nongraduate. I'm not going to pretend to know what it takes to graduate, but I certainly relate experiences that have a bearing on the subject at hand (in this case, ridiculous FAIPs).

6...but there there was the intro slide, an overview...

I am a former Nav and a newbie pilot fresh out of UPT. Two words for our former Army friend about to go through UPT: FLY NAVY! I was a former instructor nav in gunships and went through Whiting/Corpus. It's well worth it if you can swing it. The Navy scheduling mentality is ridiculous but it's a big boy program that is great for guys with prior experience. Stay humble and try not to hang yourself when they nickel and dime you. You're going to smoke it. Best of luck.

[BQZip01]

Please tell me you had a "Why are we here?" slide.

DAMMIT! Knew I forgot something!

[KingGuy]

FWQ still exists, and as mentioned above, it's a much shorter program. As a recent UPT grad with a FWQ guy in my class (also an Army Helo guy, going to the Puerto Rico guard), I can tell you that, at least at Laughlin, they treat it as a complete gentlemen's program. He pretty much came and went as he pleased - there was no formal training schedule, he took several months of leave during UPT.

I don't think he had to take Emergency Procedure Quizzes, and I know he didn't have to participate in stand ups. It's kind of like he got extra training that he might not have needed, without any of the hazing of UPT.

I never noticed any IPs (including FAIPs) treating him like he wasn't already a pilot there for requal.

Basically, if you're not in the FWQ program, find a way to get into it. You'll be there about half as long, and it won't be near the asspain.

[dontshavemyhead]

See if you can't get a hold of CavGuy here on the forum. He's a former Army apache dude who's now in -38s.

[Lord B]

PM me with FWQ questions. I am currently in the -38 end of the program, but could certainly provide insight on the T-6/T-1 syllabus and FWQ oddities. You must be a rated military aviator. There is no flight hour requirement, just an ARB. Let me know if I can help.

[AZwildcat]

FWQ still exists, and as mentioned above, it's a much shorter program. As a recent UPT grad with a FWQ guy in my class (also an Army Helo guy, going to the Puerto Rico guard), I can tell you that, at least at Laughlin, they treat it as a complete gentlemen's program. He pretty much came and went as he pleased - there was no formal training schedule, he took several months of leave during UPT.

I don't think he had to take Emergency Procedure Quizzes, and I know he didn't have to participate in stand ups. It's kind of like he got extra training that he might not have needed, without any of the hazing of UPT.

I never noticed any IPs (including FAIPs) treating him like he wasn't already a pilot there for requal.

Basically, if you're not in the FWQ program, find a way to get into it. You'll be there about half as long, and it won't be near the asspain.

Dude that's completely not true...if we're talking about the same guy. T-6s he did his own thing but in T-1s he was a part of the flight like anyone else, took epq's, did standups, etc. And he finished only a few weeks before we graduated. It was definitely not a breeze for him.

[Rage]

PM me with FWQ questions. I am currently in the -38 end of the program, but could certainly provide insight on the T-6/T-1 syllabus and FWQ oddities. You must be a rated military aviator. There is no flight hour requirement, just an ARB. Let me know if I can help.

Thread revival

I'm an Apache pilot recently picked up for FWQ. The latest word I've received is that FWQ is going away completely and I'll do the complete UPT syllabus instead of the self-paced T-6 program and join up with a T-38 class like some of the Army guys I know. Anyone know if this is accurate?

[Lord Ratner]

Hopefully those FAIPs were heavily shit-on by the MWS IPs. I know if I saw that act out of one of the FAIPs in my squadron, we'd have a little mentorship session on the side about what they've 'earned' so far in their career.

More importantly, hopefully they were shit on by the other FAIPs with less head-in-ass time.

EDIT: Only one year late to the party. Oh well, stupid timestamps.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Lord Ratner