Bagram DFAC sets the fail bar

[JSChmed]

I've been a member for a while, but never posted until now. I find the comments in this thread funny considering an experience I had a few weeks ago when I attended AIS. It started when I asked a question about computing single engine climb gradients, the Lt Col instructor (C-5 pilot) asked me what I flew. When I said helicopters, he said "No, it doesn't apply." "Ok, can you tell me why so when I get back to my squadron I can let them know?" "Well, helicopters aren't aircraft." "So what's an aircraft?" said I. "Well, anything that's not a helicopter," was his reply. Well he just self-identified as an idiot I thought to myself.

An hour later I was talking with another student, KC-135 IP. When I said I flew H-60s he said "Oh that's cool, so do you guys deploy?" REALLY?!!! I thought I was doing some pretty serious stuff during my 7 deployments flying through Baghdad and the Helmand Valley, and this guy doesn't even know I exist.

Then I talked with a C-21 IP, when she asked what I flew, I said "H-60s", and she said "So what's your mission?" Why doesn't another IP in the Air Force know what CSAR is and who does it?

Later that day, I met the Lt Col who writes the 11-202 v3. I asked him that question about climb gradients since I didn't get an answer from the first guy. When I said I flew H-60s, he said "What's that?" "It's a helicopter sir."

Why do two Capt IPs not know what CSAR is and who does it? I know what a KC-135 and C-21 are. I know their missions, and I even have an idea about where they deploy. Why would the guy that writes the general flying rules for the Air Force ask me what an H-60 is? (No, he wasn't kidding.)

I came to the realization that a bunch of non-tactical pilots can do their job just fine without knowing information about other airframes, and they're OK with that. Personally, I'd be embarrassed. For me, my ability to do my job well is directly related to my knowledge of other aircraft and how to integrate with them.

From reading this thread, it sounds like those guys are anomalies, but I really doubt it. We can slam the "shoes," all we want, but I'd be willing to bet the majority of AMC pilots have a serious lack of understanding and knowledge of other USAF assets. Don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers, but those two weeks made a real impression on me.

[bucky60k]

From reading this thread, it sounds like those guys are anomalies, but I really doubt it. We can slam the "shoes," all we want, but I'd be willing to bet the majority of AMC pilots have a serious lack of understanding and knowledge of other USAF assets. Don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers, but those two weeks made a real impression on me.

Big 2 on that one. I'm in AMC and I would say the vast majority of people I fly with have zero clue on what other airplanes are operating around us. Every mass "tactics" brief we have everyone is always baffled about the presence and capabilities of the EA-6B (just one of the latest examples). I bet 69% couldn't even identify an IL-76 or Mi-17 and we see those all the ######ing time. I think it has to do with the fact that if you're a pure Airland guy in AMC you don't need to have any clue about other aircraft aside from knowing the references on the tanker.

Edited September 24, 2010 by bucky60k

[Guest Rubber_Side_Down]

An hour later I was talking with another student, KC-135 IP. When I said I flew H-60s he said "Oh that's cool, so do you guys deploy?" REALLY?!!! I thought I was doing some pretty serious stuff during my 7 deployments flying through Baghdad and the Helmand Valley, and this guy doesn't even know I exist.

Then I talked with a C-21 IP, when she asked what I flew, I said "H-60s", and she said "So what's your mission?" Why doesn't another IP in the Air Force know what CSAR is and who does it?

Later that day, I met the Lt Col who writes the 11-202 v3. I asked him that question about climb gradients since I didn't get an answer from the first guy. When I said I flew H-60s, he said "What's that?" "It's a helicopter sir."

Why do two Capt IPs not know what CSAR is and who does it? I know what a KC-135 and C-21 are. I know their missions, and I even have an idea about where they deploy. Why would the guy that writes the general flying rules for the Air Force ask me what an H-60 is? (No, he wasn't kidding.)

This is scary.

[sky_king]

I find it hilarious and sad that several officers can't determine the difference between a C-130 and a C-5, but they teach visual recognition of satellites at ASBC.

[M2]

Man, I went through BMTS in 86' and don't remember a bluebook at all. Of course I could have taught a class on aircraft recognition. I was...OK, am a total airplane nerd. All these years later I still get fired up about just about all of them.

I went through in 81 and I vaguely remember a training manual that may or may not have had aircraft pics in it; but hell, it’s been nearly 30 years!

But I do remember my TI (SSgt Rodgers) telling us about all the aircraft in the inventory at the time (the USAF was still flying F-105s then) and saying how an A-10 could turn within the distance of two nearby buildings. Being a clueless 18-year-old at the time, I envisioned some high-tech, space aged looking machine in stainless steel. When I finally saw a Hog, it was quite different than what I imagined…

Cheers! M2

[BQZip01]

I always get a kick when shoes think 135's and 707's are the same.

I'll be the "ignorant" d-bag on this one: aren't they the same airframe. I mean obviously one is a military cargo plane (or a variant thereof) and the other is a passenger plane built for civilians, but they are the same basic airplane, right? I think it is pretty reasonable to think they are the same airplane from a non-flyer perspective. (FWIW, I know that the C-135 was developed BEFORE the 707 (basically they let the military pay for the R&D costs))

[BQZip01]

I've been a member for a while, but never posted until now. I find the comments in this thread funny considering an experience I had a few weeks ago when I attended AIS. It started when I asked a question about computing single engine climb gradients, the Lt Col instructor (C-5 pilot) asked me what I flew. When I said helicopters, he said "No, it doesn't apply." "Ok, can you tell me why so when I get back to my squadron I can let them know?" "Well, helicopters aren't aircraft." "So what's an aircraft?" said I. "Well, anything that's not a helicopter," was his reply. Well he just self-identified as an idiot I thought to myself.

An hour later I was talking with another student, KC-135 IP. When I said I flew H-60s he said "Oh that's cool, so do you guys deploy?" REALLY?!!! I thought I was doing some pretty serious stuff during my 7 deployments flying through Baghdad and the Helmand Valley, and this guy doesn't even know I exist.

Then I talked with a C-21 IP, when she asked what I flew, I said "H-60s", and she said "So what's your mission?" Why doesn't another IP in the Air Force know what CSAR is and who does it?

Later that day, I met the Lt Col who writes the 11-202 v3. I asked him that question about climb gradients since I didn't get an answer from the first guy. When I said I flew H-60s, he said "What's that?" "It's a helicopter sir."

Why do two Capt IPs not know what CSAR is and who does it? I know what a KC-135 and C-21 are. I know their missions, and I even have an idea about where they deploy. Why would the guy that writes the general flying rules for the Air Force ask me what an H-60 is? (No, he wasn't kidding.)

I came to the realization that a bunch of non-tactical pilots can do their job just fine without knowing information about other airframes, and they're OK with that. Personally, I'd be embarrassed. For me, my ability to do my job well is directly related to my knowledge of other aircraft and how to integrate with them.

From reading this thread, it sounds like those guys are anomalies, but I really doubt it. We can slam the "shoes," all we want, but I'd be willing to bet the majority of AMC pilots have a serious lack of understanding and knowledge of other USAF assets. Don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers, but those two weeks made a real impression on me.

I wouldn't cut the guys too much slack on this one, but I'd sure as hell WANT to know what other airframes do, so perhaps these were more requests for information than being idiots.

I would cut the KC-135 guy a little slack as he may not be familiar with your particular mission or where/if you deploy. I'm at a missile base where our helicopter folks DON'T deploy (at least for the most part), so it isn't an entirely stupid question. Moreover, most aircrew generally don't discuss which specific assets are available for CSAR...perhaps we should do that a little more.

The C-21 IP asking what your mission what could have been an opportunity for you to educate him and perhaps he wanted to genuinely hear more about your job and learn something. Just because I'm not an expert on the subject and I want to know more, doesn't mean I'm a d-bag.

The 1st LTC was being insulting and stereotypical, dismissing your mission as unimportant (if he wasn't, he was damn ignorant) and the guy writing the 11-202v3...kinda scary

[JP84U2]

I'll be the "ignorant" d-bag on this one: aren't they the same airframe. I mean obviously one is a military cargo plane (or a variant thereof) and the other is a passenger plane built for civilians, but they are the same basic airplane, right? I think it is pretty reasonable to think they are the same airplane from a non-flyer perspective. (FWIW, I know that the C-135 was developed BEFORE the 707 (basically they let the military pay for the R&D costs))

They were both devoloped from the same Boeing 367-80 prototype but the 707 airframe is wider and longer than the KC-135.

Humps

[afnav]

I'll be the "ignorant" d-bag on this one: aren't they the same airframe. I mean obviously one is a military cargo plane (or a variant thereof) and the other is a passenger plane built for civilians, but they are the same basic airplane, right? I think it is pretty reasonable to think they are the same airplane from a non-flyer perspective. (FWIW, I know that the C-135 was developed BEFORE the 707 (basically they let the military pay for the R&D costs))

Actually, they are quite different airframes. If you look at a ramp that has both types, like Offutt, you can see the external differences if you compare the two side-by-side. The one big thing they have in common is that the -135s now have 707 tails. From what I know, the original tail had insufficient rudder authority in asymmetric thrust situations, which caused a number of crashes. They ripped the tails off of retired 707s and put them on the -135 fleet. From the inside, the -135 cockpit is huge compared to the 707, especially with the nav station crammed into the E-3/E-6. The -135 body is larger, containing more internal volume. I'm not a pilot or FE, but the systems differences are probably significant enough to warrant mentioning.

[Stitch]

Probably an oversight ... but I'd definitely include the bombers in your list ... B52, B1, and B2

Yup. My foul. No offense to bomber world. I even started out stuffing (STS) bombs into Buffs back in 1983.

[bfargin]

Actually, they are quite different airframes. If you look at a ramp that has both types, like Offutt, you can see the external differences if you compare the two side-by-side. The one big thing they have in common is that the -135s now have 707 tails. From what I know, the original tail had insufficient rudder authority in asymmetric thrust situations, which caused a number of crashes. They ripped the tails off of retired 707s and put them on the -135 fleet. From the inside, the -135 cockpit is huge compared to the 707, especially with the nav station crammed into the E-3/E-6. The -135 body is larger, containing more internal volume. I'm not a pilot or FE, but the systems differences are probably significant enough to warrant mentioning.

I can imagine there are some differences but the FAA groups them all together. My type rating has B707/B720. Of course avionics as well as the boom etc make them different in appearance and I'm sure like many Boeing aircraft there were different lengths in different model series, etc but the -135 is the same smaller size in length as the B720 at around 136 feet. I'd guess there is tons of info on any aircraft out on the web in various places but didn't bother to look up all of the details. So, I'm going on memory from flying it years ago.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

I've been a member for a while, but never posted until now. Followed by several paragraphs describing blatant aircraft ignorance by rated pilots.

That's a Class A FAIL. Pilots should know the major aircraft types in the inventory. Again, I'll give a pass to the weird/unusual aircraft that aren't widely touted, but I have noticed a general ignorance among the USAF fixed-wing community about helicopters.

Many moons ago, a UH-60 was parked at the Ruston, LA airport. At the time I was in AFROTC (left to pursue a flight school slot with the ARNG), and the PAS, who was a -135 guy, stated he saw an Apache out at the airport.

Fast-forward many years and I'm in UPT, and many IPs and SPs alike asked me the helo questions...I was astounded by the number of people (even rated guys) that knew little or nothing about helicopters...even the helicopters in the USAF. One of the IFT instructors that I flew with prior to arriving at UPT was a former Viper driver. He told me "it's going to be tough for you to transition to the T-37. The controls of a jet airplane are a lot more sensitive than the controls of a helicopter, and they fly faster too." Since I had never flown a T-37, I wasn't sure if he was full of shit or not. Looking back on it, he was full of shit and had no idea what he was talking about. The Tweet was easy to fly. The biggest challenge was getting used to a 15 second spool up time. Learning to fly helos, on the other hand, was among the hardest things I've ever had to do.

Anyways, back to the airplane ID thing...it's UFB that two AIS instructors were that clueless.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Hueypilot812

[stract]

I would cut the KC-135 guy a little slack as he may not be familiar with your particular mission or where/if you deploy. I'm at a missile base where our helicopter folks DON'T deploy (at least for the most part), so it isn't an entirely stupid question. Moreover, most aircrew generally don't discuss which specific assets are available for CSAR...perhaps we should do that a little more.

first of all, many of the helo dudes at your base deploy. They take the brunt of the CAFTT 365s to Iraq and Afghanistan.

Second, the HH-60 PAVE HAWK (not a Blackhawk - Army flies those) is the ONLY airframe in the entire DoD specifically tasked with CSAR/PR. So you sure as hell better know these things.

BREAK BREAK

Third, what was the answer about the OEI stuff? I know this has been argued in our community for many years...

[Guest Crew Report]

I'll be the "ignorant" d-bag on this one: aren't they the same airframe. I mean obviously one is a military cargo plane (or a variant thereof) and the other is a passenger plane built for civilians, but they are the same basic airplane, right? I think it is pretty reasonable to think they are the same airplane from a non-flyer perspective. (FWIW, I know that the C-135 was developed BEFORE the 707 (basically they let the military pay for the R&D costs))

The KC-135 was given a 717 designator. True 707 military variants like AWACS and JSTARS are (as previously stated) are wider and longer. They also have Flight Engineers (unlike the KC-135).

[POKESC17]

To all the Enlisted and Prior Enlisted on this board who remember having a big, blue book in Basic Training where you had to identify all the major aircraft in the USAF inventory... You are correct, we did have that, as a matter of fact, I can prob scan a copy in from 1995. I do not, however, remember having anything like this in OTS. We did have some of the A/C in our "Talon", but were never quizzed on them like we were in basic.

I remember that book from basic and the shadows of aircraft and being tested on them. I don't have my 1995 edition though. I also remember the "Talon" and getting asked very specific question not only about the A/C in it but also the Satellites and Launch systems while at OTS.

[Insubordinate & Churlish]

As of the 2007, there is no aircraft identification in BMT.

[JarheadBoom]

Hell, even in Marine Corps boot camp (in '93) we were taught all the major USMC aircraft, their basic missions, and their basic appearances (via 3-view silhouettes in our "knowledge books"). We were tested on it as well... and it was bad juju to be a recruit with a contract-guaranteed aviation job and not know that shit inside and out.

It is unacceptable that a significant number of Air Force personnel can't point to the iron on the ramp at the base they're stationed at, and say "that's a C-17, it hauls shit all over the world", or "that's a B-52, it carries a shit-ton of bombs and scares people worldwide", or "that's an F-16, it kills bad guys"... yet (as already mentioned) I have to know what all the various Finance, Medical, and _____________ regs and forms are. Un-fucking-acceptable.

[BQZip01]

Actually, they are quite different airframes. If you look at a ramp that has both types, like Offutt, you can see the external differences if you compare the two side-by-side. The one big thing they have in common is that the -135s now have 707 tails. From what I know, the original tail had insufficient rudder authority in asymmetric thrust situations, which caused a number of crashes. They ripped the tails off of retired 707s and put them on the -135 fleet. From the inside, the -135 cockpit is huge compared to the 707, especially with the nav station crammed into the E-3/E-6. The -135 body is larger, containing more internal volume. I'm not a pilot or FE, but the systems differences are probably significant enough to warrant mentioning.

They are completely different internally, no doubt, but most people don't ever see a C-135 (or variant) internally. Consequently, I think it is holding them to a ridiculous standard to expect them to readily tell the difference if they are nothing more than a towel folder at the gym (or did we get rid of towels?...).

I would expect someone in the Air Force to be able to recognize that it is a -135 type airframe at a bare minimum though.

...was among the hardest things I've ever had to do.

That's what she said [/sophomoric comment]

[BQZip01]

As of the 2007, there is no aircraft identification in BMT.

AF Leadership EPIC fail! If I ever get to a level of leadership where it could make any difference, I will make sure that everyone knows basic a/c ID (to include helicopters!):

To the helicopter dude, I'm not sure I could pick out an H-60 vs. an HH-60 or an MH-60 or an MH-60 DAP (ok, that last one's kinda distinctive and I'd probably get that one). But AF personnel should recognize a BASIC airframe, i.e. yours is a blackhawk and the E-3 is a -135 variant.

It is unacceptable that a significant number of Air Force personnel can't point to the iron on the ramp at the base they're stationed at...Un-fucking-acceptable.

Shack

[dmeg130]

Second, the HH-60 PAVE HAWK (not a Blackhawk - Army flies those) is the ONLY airframe in the entire DoD specifically tasked with CSAR/PR.

*ahem*

[outbreak]

We had aircraft identification in our little knowledge book at Field Training in 05. We had to be able to rattle off the number and nickname of each aircraft.

We had some Navy dudes on some kind of incentive flight a couple weeks ago. Their boss walked them out to the airplane, introduced them to the crew and then I took them up to the flight deck, gave them a little safety briefing on the EPOS, emergency exits, puke bags, etc. I asked if they had any questions and one of them asks, "so what kind of airplane is this?"

I understand they're Navy, but not knowing what a C-130 is kinda blew my mind, sts.

[BQZip01]

*ahem*

Ok, so I learned something today (USAF ONLY flies the PAVE HAWK and not the Blackhawk...but the Pave Hawk is merely a variant of the Blackhawk airframe), but I stand by the essence of my comment: you should know the basic airframes of your service.

We had some Navy dudes on some kind of incentive flight a couple weeks ago. Their boss walked them out to the airplane, introduced them to the crew and then I took them up to the flight deck, gave them a little safety briefing on the EPOS, emergency exits, puke bags, etc. I asked if they had any questions and one of them asks, "so what kind of airplane is this?"

I understand they're Navy, but not knowing what a C-130 is kinda blew my mind, sts.

Perhaps they were told they were getting a ride on a different airframe?

[Guest Rubber_Side_Down]

*ahem*

Seriously.

[BQZip01]

Seriously.

3.5 hours late on this conversation...

[contraildash]

Ok, so I learned something today (USAF ONLY flies the PAVE HAWK and not the Blackhawk...but the Pave Hawk is merely a variant of the Blackhawk airframe), but I stand by the essence of my comment: you should know the basic airframes of your service.

Perhaps they were told they were getting a ride on a different airframe?

Don't forget Seahawks and Jayhawks. I even think the Marines in HMX-1 call their 60's something else too. The H-60/70 line is rather diverse.