Back Stabbing

[Guest markmanning]

I've been in the USAF for a while. I'm proud of my service and those I serve with. However, as in most corporate cultures "back stabbing" does exist in the Air Force. In an effort to gain ground on career advancement and promotion, I've never seen a culture (ours) so overwhelmed with such blasphemous behavior. The thought that I share a cockpit with such low lives, who will spread vicious rumors and engage in character assassination - then look you straight in the eye and lie about it. I must add that I'm not saying this about our entire force, but witness it once, twice multiple times in your career and you can't help but build a sense of insecurity about those you work around.

Where's the character and decency, under which ALL of us as Officers were Commissioned by the President of the United States?

If any one here benefits from this "rant" if you will, take one word of advice! Before you make baseless comments about fellow Officers/NCO's etc - look yourself in the mirror and ask what sort of person "am I" if I can say these ridiculous dangerous things about a fellow combatant, and have no nerve to say it to his/her face first! What sort of career have you built on the backs of those who deserved in no way the fruit of your "forked tounge". How can you look your children in the eye and take responsibility for them, when you take no responsibility for yourself, shameless and reckeless behavior.

For those junior Officer's new to our corps, the next time you witness a fellow Officer/NCO making comments about another combatant/fellow airman, refuse to engage, refuse to fuel the fire of career destruction that these spineless weasels so often engage. Turn the conversation to sports, cars anything - call these losers out! Call them what they are, cowards. Cowards that have failed to earn the right to defend this Great Nation. We maintain the right to function as Officer and Leaders daily by our integrity and character. Lose sight of these fundamental ideals, then you lose the right to lead.

Edited October 11, 2010 by markmanning

[Vandal]

Back-stabbing happens everywhere and it begins by creating a culture, in the training and entry level environment, that says you must work as a team but you'd better be the best and screw everyone else. I am speaking from the corporate side of things as my last affiliation with the USAF ended in 2008, but from what I remember and what I hear from my buddies still on AD it is a normalized thing in the Shoe levels. I am sure it happens on the Ops side as well.

Find a way to fix it at the training and you will have the problem solved and possibly be a millionaire. You touched on it briefly, it stems from the careerist mentality of beat others to make yourself look better. It happens in the military and in the civilian world. All one can do is try to hold yourself above it and hope it will influence those around you.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Vandal

[Guest markmanning]

"Glad to see you're perfect"

Why would you come to this conclusion? I can't recall a time in my career, when I made false claims about another for my benefit or even entertainment. If that's what you gathered, I remain confused as to how you reached this assumption.

I merely hoped to make a point, to fellow Officers, that this behavior is becoming almost pandemic in our culture and needs to be checked. We're in control of what happends around us.

I'm perfect in no way, but atleast I can face myself in the mirror and be honest when I say, noone's career has suffered as a result of anything I've said.

"All one can do is try to hold yourself above it and hope it will influence those around you."

Well said!

Edited October 11, 2010 by markmanning

[Vandal]

It is pandemic at all levels, I get to hear about it often from my AD officer friends. As I mentioned it starts at the entry level, BMT or the commissioning source, and then is furthered by the careerist mentality fostered in the military today.

My comment came from the wording used, it works great to attempt to distance yourself from the issue, but more people will pay attention if you offer a personal concession in your first post when dealing with a topic like this one. It came across as a "this applies to everyone but me" rant. My bad and my apologies for ruffling feathers.

[Guest markmanning]

"Vandal"

No apology needed. I see your point, perhaps my prose did appear elitist - not my intent. It's just that after 16 years, I've finally become sickend by this behavior and the victim too many times. Honor amongst us in the Officer corps needs to be restored.

Thank you for your service as well.

Edited October 11, 2010 by markmanning

[Learjetter]

Wow...I've been in 19 years and can't think of a single example of backstabbing that I've witnessed or heard of firsthand. If it's truly as pervasive as mentioned above, then I'm gonna have to rethink my naïveté...

[contraildash]

Wow...I've been in 19 years and can't think of a single example of backstabbing that I've witnessed or heard of firsthand. If it's truly as pervasive as mentioned above, then I'm gonna have to rethink my naïveté...

You are a lucky soul my friend. I'm coming up on four years and have seen it both directly and indirectly. Just before I got into the service, I saw it in both my parents careers. I remember one rant by my old man that had me thinking, are these grown men/senior officers?

When I was in ROTC, I definetly saw that culture being bred albeit subconsciously. Competition brought out the better part of folks and also the scumbag part of folks: "gotta get that pilot slot!" OTS was different, we all knew what we were going to do in the AF going into it. I didn't feel like there was that same competition to be the best to get that pilot slot. There were still douches, but that was just their personality. The worse shenanigans I saw on this subject were in pilot training. It was just disgusting. But those individuals were still few and far between.

I haven't seen it in my current squadron, but some of the stories that my family and friends who are on active duty tell me are just shameful. Some get away with it, others get called out.

In the end, I also saw it just as much in the civilian career I had. That's life really. It's up to folks to take the moral high ground and call such douchnozzles out early, or the behavior just grows worse and we end up posting threads on baseops about backstabbing fools.

[Hacker]

It's been the rare exception in my experience. What I've seen in the AF is absolutely childsplay compared to the walk-on-your-bros culture that exists in the O-3 and O-4 ranks in the Navy as they compete for promotions.

Really, there are far greater cancers in the AF culture than backstabbing.

[di1630]

Backstabbing and careerism is rampant in the USAF because success has very little to do with how you perform in your job. Instead, it is mostly about pulling a BS stratification that you get by being liked by your superiors and making yourself look good. Unfortunately, some peole can;t make themselves look good so they do the next best thing: make the other person look bad.

This won;t go away anytime soon since the USAF has lost its focus and the same poor leaders who succeeded by kissing a$$ and backstabbing when they were climbing the ladder are now rewarding the same behavior. Fortunately there are a few good leaders out there...but they are grossly outnumbered.

[Spoo]

That's life really...

Shack. Every "community", for lack of a better term, has its share of unsavory douchebags who are only out for themselves and should not be trusted. It's been my experience though that these ass-hats are usually PID'd by nine out of ten of his coworkers. The problem is that the one, from said ten, that doesn't get it, is usually the one that signs his PRF. No, my bigger issue is the AF's habit of putting guys into leadership positions because they've "checked the boxes". Garnering the respect of their peers, possessing real leadership ability, or having developed a real set of social skills, seems to count for nought. But I digress...

[Gravedigger]

No, my bigger issue is the AF's habit of putting guys into leadership positions because they've "checked the boxes". Garnering the respect of their peers, possessing real leadership ability, or having developed a real set of social skills, seems to count for nought. But I digress...

That would be awesome if that were the case, but how do you get this going? Would everyone in the squadron vote for who they wanted to fill positions/get promoted? The Air Force has come to the conclusion that there is no way to identify the "good guys" objectively, so they just started looking for easily quantifiable ways to promote people. Does this person have their masters? Check. Have they completed PME? Check. It's gay, but it's reality.

I know you know better than I, but when I read PRFs, they pretty much sound the same. Of course the superstars and dirt bags stand out, but other than that it's all gray. So how does a board separate the middle folks consistently across all career fields; they have to look at things other than how they do the job.

This is also where backstabbing comes into play. There are only a few ways to stand out: you can volunteer for a crap ton of additional duties, you can excel at evals and inspections, or you can walk over your peers and highlight their faults while promoting yourself.

Unfortunately, those that suck or are mediocre at the job generally pick the last option, and like you said, the folks that make decisions usually don't spot the d bags.

Just my opinion.

[Guest]

Here's a couple thought/words of advice that I found useful:

1. Grow thicker skin.

2. Learn to notch.

3. Be optimistic and persistent.

4. Outlive the adversity/adversary.

[Guest markmanning]

"Gearpig"

The incidents I speak of go from petty to career ending. I've seen it all. I've been the target of petty backstabbing in a previous unit and still must answer for the rumors that were spread. Rumors, that's all - "he's worthless", "that guy couldn't fly to save his life", "don't trust him" etc. These comments might seem minor, but report to a new unit and discover you have to prove yourself all over again because some zealot calls, emails etc and spews their venom. The ass pain is undeserved and in the end usually unfounded by the new supervisors, standards guys etc. I've just grown tired of the petty bullshit. Unfortunately, the examples I speak of were just recently revealed to myself as the work of one person. One person who lacks character, honor and is obviously upset with his creator for cursing him with female genitalia. This guy has penis envy!

"Rainman"

Great advice. Thanks.

Thanks for you service as well. I know a few who have spoken well about you and know of you very well.

One more thing that makes conditions like this even more unbearable - it's when these types have the "Commanders Ear". have you noticed that these pigs will often be the ones closest to the CC? These social outcasts will often sacrifice their integrity just be one the Commanders stooges! Pitiful. Simply pitiful!

Edited October 11, 2010 by markmanning

[Royal]

"To be or to do."

[Guest]

I know a few who have spoken well about you and know of you very well.

...very few.

[Pancake]

Here's a couple thought/words of advice that I found useful:

1. Grow thicker skin.

2. Learn to notch.

3. Be optimistic and persistent.

4. Outlive the adversity/adversary.

Shack.

[lazlo]

I saw this from the Navs I met when I was at Randolph for IFF... They were ruthless, far beyond anything I saw in Pensacola. "Cooperate to graduate" is more than just a nice saying...

Edited October 12, 2010 by lazlo

[Guest Crew Report]

You think Officers stab people in the back? Check out the Enlisted corps.

[Hacker]

I saw this from the Navs I met when I was at Randolph for IFF... They were ruthless, far beyond anything I saw in Pensacola. "Cooperate to graduate" is more than just a nice saying...

The biggest problem with WSOs going through IFF is that they've been raised in the Navy's NFO training system up to that point, which has absolutely no "cooperate and graduate" aspect to it.

[magnetfreezer]

The biggest problem with WSOs going through IFF is that they've been raised in the Navy's NFO training system up to that point, which has absolutely no "cooperate and graduate" aspect to it.

Any particular examples? Never did IFF, but pretty much every kind of gouge, charts, etc imaginable was passed around at Pcola when I went through. Got to RND for EWO upgrade and all the undergrad navs in the class were a lot more wary after being completely fried because someone revealed to the powers that be study guide that the classes since Wilbur Wright had been using. They also had about 0.69% separating the high and low performers because of the grading system there - that probably enhanced competition as well.

Edited October 12, 2010 by magnetfreezer

[lazlo]

The biggest problem with WSOs going through IFF is that they've been raised in the Navy's NFO training system up to that point, which has absolutely no "cooperate and graduate" aspect to it.

I totally disagree. The multi-service aspect of it was awesome, and I think the fact that you weren't in compitition with them for their "jet" spots and all the hoops they had to go through, everyone made more of an effort to get through it together.

Edited October 12, 2010 by lazlo

[pawnman]

The biggest problem with WSOs going through IFF is that they've been raised in the Navy's NFO training system up to that point, which has absolutely no "cooperate and graduate" aspect to it.

Really? I found I had less cooperation from the Navs at Randolph during EWO than I did from the guys at PCola...AF and Navy. If only our Chiefs of Staff could get along as well as the students from different branches did at PCola, maybe we wouldn't have the intersevice dick-measuring contests to get funding.

[08Dawg]

I saw this from the Navs I met when I was at Randolph for IFF... They were ruthless, far beyond anything I saw in Pensacola. "Cooperate to graduate" is more than just a nice saying...

You must have seen a shitty nav class, because mine was not that way at all. I never once felt that way about my class, or the classes within two or three of mine. There was one dude in a class behind me that was very much out for himself, but everybody knew who he was, and once they figured it out, gave him a wide berth. Slammed his ass (sts) on drop night for it, too. What you might have seen was the navs in EWO phase being lost/bored/frustrated, because integration was about 96% what the EWOs had learned for the last month and a half, and about 4% what the navs knew.

[Hacker]

Any particular examples?

Sure...every time there was a "cooperate and graduate" moment, many stud WSOs were looking over their shoulder and waiting for the cheating police to bust down the door. I had more than one stud WSO report to me that there had been "cheating" during the academics.

My response was, #1 are you really in here ratting out your bros, and #2, it's not cheating when the academic instructor gives you a 35-point review just minutes prior to proctoring the 35-point academic test.

Obviously this doesn't describe *every* WSO who I saw go through IFF...not by a long shot. But there were certainly more moments like this from the Navy-trained folk than from the USAF-trained folk.

I totally disagree.

What is it you're disagreeing with? Were you/are you an IFF instructor? I never went through Pensacola, but I sure saw plenty of the product of Pensacola that came through IFF on their way to the F-15E, and that's how I formed the opinion I posted.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Hacker

[lazlo]

Sure...every time there was a "cooperate and graduate" moment, many stud WSOs were looking over their shoulder and waiting for the cheating police to bust down the door. I had more than one stud WSO report to me that there had been "cheating" during the academics.

My response was, #1 are you really in here ratting out your bros, and #2, it's not cheating when the academic instructor gives you a 35-point review just minutes prior to proctoring the 35-point academic test.

Obviously this doesn't describe *every* WSO who I saw go through IFF...not by a long shot. But there were certainly more moments like this from the Navy-trained folk than from the USAF-trained folk.

What is it you're disagreeing with? Were you/are you an IFF instructor? I never went through Pensacola, but I sure saw plenty of the product of Pensacola that came through IFF on their way to the F-15E, and that's how I formed the opinion I posted.

My original post wasn't even about IFF, merely an observation of RND Navs while I was there FOR IFF...

I disagree that there is a lack of cooperate to graduate mentality among WSOs as a result of the Pensacola training. I didn't see it there, at IFF, or in the B-course. I think most people would agree that that kind of mentality/display of actions is a huge dick move, and they wouldn't be very well accepted in the community.

Everyone loves those 35 question reviews.