Aerobatic General Aviation plane info

[Whitman]

THREAD REVIVAL!

I was just wondering if anyone has any suggestions for a reliable kit plane that an ameatur could build. I would like it to be a four place that can do 600-800nm cross country trips cruising between 150 and 200 KTAS as well as aerobatic. Is all this too much to ask?

I think so. That's like saying you want to buy the ultimate high performance sport's car but you also want it to be good on gas mileage and be able to fit 4 people, golf clubs and bags. There are trade offs with anything.

For cross country I recommend an older V-tail bonanza with a 285hp upgrade. You can cruise about 160 kts and only burn around 12 gph. Buy a J-3 Cub as well and you will have one of the best XC and fun to fly combinations in GA.

I've heard of guys doing barrel rolls in bonanzas but it's certainly not common practice in the doctor killer.

[HuggyU2]

So, Bergman,... what did you end up doing? Probably just like me and decided to keep renting!?

If still interested, try a Great Lakes. If you can get to Phoenix, Chander Air Service gives dual in theirs. https://www.aerobatics.com/aerobatics.html

A bit pricey by comparison, but they have a good reputation.

Edited June 27, 2007 by Huggyu2

[Guest sleepy]

THREAD REVIVAL!

I would like it to be a four place that can do 600-800nm cross country trips cruising between 150 and 200 KTAS as well as aerobatic. Is all this too much to ask?

Agree with whitman that you are asking too much. I can't really think of anything that fits four people that will cruise that fast and rated for aerobatics.

The 35 model bonanzas would be okay (some of the earlier ones weren't built nearly as strong as the later ones), but I'd rather sacrifice a little speed for a host of other things you get with a 182.

Sure a Cub is fun, but they fly like shit compared to other aircraft of the same era. And they're over-priced. I'll spare my disertation on that.

Hey whitman, what's up with having a GPS and all those cords in the cockpit?

Huggy...an original Great Lakes or the new ones? I've always thought both were really cool, but I'd rather have an old one with the Warner hanging up front. Never flown a GL, but Buckers are a blast!

[ellsworb]

Sure a Cub is fun, but they fly like shit compared to other aircraft of the same era. And they're over-priced. I'll spare my disertation on that.

i've only flown a straight J3 about 50 hours, but i had the opportunity to teach a student some gentleman's aerobatics in his newly built clipped wing cub. Granted, they ARE over priced, but my opinion is that a properly tuned cub is one of the purest feeling flying machines of the many i've flown.

and to the OP. Just remember, REAL airplanes have 4 wings a wheel under the tail!

[Whitman]

The 35 model bonanzas would be okay (some of the earlier ones weren't built nearly as strong as the later ones), but I'd rather sacrifice a little speed for a host of other things you get with a 182.

Really? A spam can? The V tail has me spoiled.

Sure a Cub is fun, but they fly like shit compared to other aircraft of the same era. And they're over-priced. I'll spare my disertation on that.

Care to explain the avatar? Traitor! haha

Hey whitman, what's up with having a GPS and all those cords in the cockpit?

Sleepy, you know as well as I do the limitations of the cub, speed and instruments are two of them. I was flying for 2hrs and didn't have the fuel to mess around, wanted to make my flight path as straight as possible. Although I did go off course once to circle around some deer I saw feeding on a pile of corn. I don't think the hunter was too pleased though!

[Guest sleepy]

Really? A spam can? The V tail has me spoiled.

I'm thinking about maintenance, insurance, parts, etc. If I had my 'druthers, though, I'd take a 185.

Care to explain the avatar? Traitor! haha

Well played. It has been changed to something with a little more history/nostalgia behind it.

Although I did go off course once to circle around some deer I saw feeding on a pile of corn. I don't think the hunter was too pleased though!

Nice! I miss doing that stuff.

EDIT: By "circle around" I'm sure it is safe to say it was done at an altitude not in excess of thirty feet AGL.

Edited June 27, 2007 by sleepy

[And1]

OK, forget all the earlier requirements about speed and cross-country capabilities. Is there any four place at all that is aerobatic? Like I said before, I'm ignorant to the subject, but my week of internet searches has only turned up one and two seaters. Any love for the four place?

[Anon Ymous]

Just wanted to revive this for a question.

If I remember correctly to fly an aerobatic plane you have to have a parachute for each person onboard. If so, for people who own aerobats do they own the chute or rent one. If owned how do the keep them up to date with inspections and packing. Thanks

[brabus]

If you own the plane, you might as well own the rigs. They just have to be re-packed every 120 days by a rigger w/ that cert. It costs around 40 bucks or so for the repack, depending on where you go.

[Fontus]

I'm thinking about maintenance, insurance, parts, etc.

Gentlemen, a wise man once told me...

If it flies, floats or fvcks, its cheaper to rent.

Fontus

[ellsworb]

you only need a chute if you're going to be carrying passengers. Solo operators can fly all day naked. Now, whether that's smart, if if the insurance company will allow it is a different story. However, some small acro aircaft just can't handle a seat pack or a backpack style chute.

[brabus]

Are you sure ells? I thought if you were planning on any bank over 60 or pitch greater than +/- 25, you had to have a chute, period. Isn't in the FARs somewhere?

[Guest sleepy]

you only need a chute if you're going to be carrying passengers.

91.307

© Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds—

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.

What say you lawyer types? I'd say the "(other than a crewmember)" bit leaves you clear. Hell, you don't need an ELT for a single place aircraft, why should you be required to have a parachute?

[And1]

With any luck, I should be moving soon (read: as long as I don't FAIP). When I do, I'd like to finally make that airplane purchase I've been thinking about for some time now. Been trying to figure out costs to airplane ownership, and one of the biggest variables has to do with insurance. A big factor in determining insurance cost is total time. Does anyone know if "sim" time from UPT counts towards this or not?

[NHbound]

With any luck, I should be moving soon (read: as long as I don't FAIP). When I do, I'd like to finally make that airplane purchase I've been thinking about for some time now. Been trying to figure out costs to airplane ownership, and one of the biggest variables has to do with insurance. A big factor in determining insurance cost is total time. Does anyone know if "sim" time from UPT counts towards this or not?

I ran into this particular circumstance a few months ago when I was invited to go in on an airplane with a few friends from college, and the answer is sim time does not count towards anything from an insurance point of view. Usually only total time and PIC time is what they look at.

In the GA world, I have a bunch of sim time from college, and we never logged it in the total time column, nor have I logged any of my sim time from UPT as total time either. The general consensus was that it counts for little if anything. Whether or not sim time is valuable in other circumstances, such as trying to get an airline job, I have no idea. I think that might depend more on what kind of sim it was, ie, level d, etc. Maybe someone else can shed some light on that.

[Guest Jackonicko]

I used to be a bit of an aerobatics nut, in my youth..... just 'Dogs, Chipmunks, and a bit of time in Stampes, Pitts', and Yaks, and one off flights in all sorts of things (Tipsy Nipper, Zlin, Extra, Aerobat...)

You ask if there's anything 4 seat and aerobatic?

Bulldog (not at the same time)

Fuji 200?

Saab 105! MS760 Paris!

The problem is that any compromise aircraft will be too limiting after a relatively short time - if you get into aerobatics you'll want to be able to do a reasonable sequence without losing too much height or without too many interruptions to climb back to height.

I'm not suggesting that everyone needs an Extra or a modern Yak, nor even an old Zlin, but I do think that Cubs, Cessna Aerobats and the like (and Chipmunks over here, unless they've been Supermunked!) don't really cut it, and soon become frustrating.

I'd say that you want a stick, not a yoke, a nice cheap-to-overhaul donk (a Lycoming not a &*$£ing Gypsy!), preferably 200-hp unless you're buying something really lightweight.

Whoever suggested the Glasair gets a vote from me - I've only flown one a couple of times but it's a really frugal and fast little point-to-pointer and its aerobatic, too. I was extremely impressed.

If it were me, I'd go Pitts - unless you're going high end competition aerobatics it won't limit you, and you can convert to it via club airplanes. Or a Yak 52...........

[HuggyU2]

4 place AND aerobatic?? Take a look at the Yak-18T.

Ross Granley (Bud Granley's son) flies one on the airshow circuit.

[Guest Jackonicko]

Not easy to get hold of -18Ts, now though.

[Container STS]

I have half ownership in a Piper Cherokee 140...great little low wing that cuts your travel time in half for about 30-50% more than what it would cost to drive. I pay 130$ for my half, 400/yr for insurance, 600$ every year for my half of the annual, and we have an 87 Octane STC so we can use pump gas for the long hauls out of home plate so we don't get ripped 1.50 extra a gallon using 100LL at outfields. I go flying with the bro's and split it, and if I get my CFI, help them get an affordable license and breakeven with it.

An airplane for me as an O-2 would be unfordable alone...I recommend that anybody's first airplane be split first with SOMEONE YOU CAN TRUST! Make it affordable.

Also, NEVER EVER buy a jet without an A&P mechanic inspection - you will get screwed in a way not easily undone.

See below....I hit up the grass strips on the weekend, fly to Dallas and grab a bite, fly to national parks with runways in their area (most are in), go camping at remote locations/specific communities for it....a blast!

Getting it repainted soon, sell it in a year, next....a Long EZ 200 MPH @ 8 GPH. Make it work.

[Whitman]

Box STS,

Has your area auto gas converted to 10% ethanol blend? I was under the impression that a lot of the United States has converted. If that's the case and I hope it's not, you wouldn't be allowed to run auto gas, even though you have an STC. There's a variety of dangers involved with running fuel with alcohol in it and your insurance would be void if anything happens. Hopefully the course will be reversed, but the federal mandates are screwing a lot of GA pilots right now. Check out this article

https://www.eaa.org/news/2007/2007-10-18_ethanol.asp

A buddy of mine in South Carolina runs auto gas on his Bonanza and Cub and filled five large tanks at home with the last load of ethanol-free gas. Nice looking airplane, good luck and fly safe!

[Guest Intact]

Hey Guys,

Just wanted to get some opinions on a proposal that was recently thrown my way.

1962 C-182

700 hours on the 230hp engine (1200 more til TBO)

650 hours on prop

Narco 12D PS8000 audio panel

Garmin 327 transponder

300 Nav-o-matic autopilot

2 place Oxygen – portable

last annual - September `08 last IFR Cert - February ‘08

Garmin 350 Approach certified

Garmin 396 w/ WX subscription

New Garmin Transponder

Nice interior/exterior

All initial inspections point toward a solid machine.

$5000 buy-in

$250/mo Hangar

$270/year insurance

$60/hour goes to an engine/mx fund that currently sits at $6000

This would be for a 1/3 share in the LLC that owns the aircraft.

Solid partners.

Aircraft is hangared 10 minutes (Walking) from my house.

Some additional thoughts;

I really like the plane. I think the partners are solid and up front. However, one of them has expressed an interest in possibly jumping ship to move over to a partnership in an experimental (probably an RV). That would leave me and the other partner paying half of the fixed costs until a suitable third partner could again be found.

Additionally, I am also interested in experimentals. I have flown in several RVs and really like the performance and fuel burn. I'm kind of on the fence as to whether or not I should jump in on this deal. A solid IFR platform, nice C182. Or try and make the leap w/ a buddy of mine and seek out a nice RV and form our own LLC. I just don't think that I'll be able to find the same quality and convenience for the buy-in price.

Thoughts? Questions?

[lj35driver]

I really like Van's RV-8 and I also love building stuff (I'm a vertern of many muscle car projects) so that seems the logical choice. But that puts off your flying by 4-5 years. Anyone around here built an airplane??!

I've built 2 RV-4s with a friend I was stationed with at Tinker. The first one was from the basic "box o'metal" and the second was a quick build. The first took about year and a half of weekends/evenings, but the quick build was less than half that. It was well worth the money not having to mark, drill and dimple every last rivet hole and . It definitely wasn't as simple as automotive work since you've got to learn some specialized skills, but it isn't anything beyond what someone accustomed to using hand tools can do. Getting flush rivets to lay and squash correctly on the first try takes a lot of practice and patience.

The RVs are definitely great performing aircraft. My friend powered the first RV-4 with a basic O-320 and fixed pitch prop and was pretty satisfied with the combo. On the next one, we hung an IO-360 w/constant speed prop. It was an absolute rocket.

[F16Rooster]

Hey Guys,

Just wanted to get some opinions on a proposal that was recently thrown my way.

Thoughts? Questions?

Well I'll throw this out there for you. I'm in a flying club out of Helena, MT and it was a $600 buy-in, $80/month dues ($20 of which goes toward flight credits), and then we have 5 aircraft for:

C-150 - 36/hr

C-172 - 47/hr

C-172/180hp - 56/hr

C-182 - 68/hr

Citabria - 47/hr

All those prices are wet and all the aircraft are IFR equipped and have GPS with the exceptions of the C-150 and the Citabria. Admittedly, it's one hell of a deal and you aren't likely to find something that cheap many places in the country but I just find the monthly prices you mentioned pretty high. I don't know, I've never rented a hangar. It also depends on what the other opportunities in your area are. (I drive 1.5 hours to Helena to fly cause the options in Great Falls are terrible) I'd say if you're gonna be flying it about 10 hours a month or more it might be worth it.

[Guest Intact]

Well I'll throw this out there for you. I'm in a flying club out of Helena, MT and it was a $600 buy-in, $80/month dues ($20 of which goes toward flight credits), and then we have 5 aircraft for:

C-150 - 36/hr

C-172 - 47/hr

C-172/180hp - 56/hr

C-182 - 68/hr

Citabria - 47/hr

All those prices are wet and all the aircraft are IFR equipped and have GPS with the exceptions of the C-150 and the Citabria. Admittedly, it's one hell of a deal and you aren't likely to find something that cheap many places in the country but I just find the monthly prices you mentioned pretty high. I don't know, I've never rented a hangar. It also depends on what the other opportunities in your area are. (I drive 1.5 hours to Helena to fly cause the options in Great Falls are terrible) I'd say if you're gonna be flying it about 10 hours a month or more it might be worth it.

That is a kick-ass deal. I don't think that is anything I can find here (although things are changing).

Like I said, I believe the airplane is solid. I like the fact that the LLC is already set up, but it's nothing I couldn't set up w/a couple partners myself.

I'd like to jump in on this deal out of sheer convenience but, I think I'd be happier w/ an RV-6A or RV-4 (if I wanted to deal w/ the tail-wheel ball of wax). And in this market, you can get a good 6A or 4 off of barnstormers for a song. You just need a really thorough per-purchase inspection for a home-build (or any aircraft for that matter).

[busdriver]

Dude, tail wheels aren't the in-conquerable beast that many claim. I'm sure a tail wheel helo is a bit different, but still....