Aerobatic General Aviation plane info

[Guest ATC]

I am in a club that owns a C-182 and the T-hangar it is parked in. Our latest share sold for around $7000. We have an annual assesment that is usually in the $800 ballpark, which covers insurance, registration, annual inspection, hangar condo fee and other fixed expenses. Whenever you fly, it is $35 per tach hour to the club towards engine overhaul and other variable expenses.

I am very happy with the airplane and the experience I've had with the club. If you are looking into club aircraft, make sure you look hard at how the club is run and what the by-laws are, policies, etc...

[JarheadBoom]

Hey Guys,

Just wanted to get some opinions on a proposal that was recently thrown my way.

1962 C-182

etc, etc, etc...

Sounds like a solid airplane. A quick AD search on the airframe, engine, and prop (what I think is installed, anyway) didn't reveal any big surprises, and, by virtue of the 9/08 annual, the couple big $$$ ones (crankshaft; prop blade overhaul - again, based on what I think is installed) should have been complied with already. Inquire about any damage history, and have a look-see at the airframe, engine, and prop logbooks. Doesn't sound like it's going to be an issue, but if the recent logs look like chickenscratch or preschool writing exercises, think twice. Look to ensure the recent (I'd be comfortable with 10 years back) annual-inspection signoffs for all 3 logs don't have large date gaps. Large, in this case, is defined as more than one month.

*** WARNING - Public math in progress ***

Am I correct when I read each of the 3 share owners has a $250/month hangar bill, for a $750/month total hangar rent bill? Sucker better have hot women & cold beer on-tap 24/7 for that price.....

[Guest Intact]

*** WARNING - Public math in progress ***

Am I correct when I read each of the 3 share owners has a $250/month hangar bill, for a $750/month total hangar rent bill? Sucker better have hot women & cold beer on-tap 24/7 for that price.....

I should have been a bit more specific. The $250/mo covers more than just hangar. It covers the GPS updates and NexRad wx subscription along w/ a few other fixed costs.

I really think the 182 is a good deal but, I'm leaning towards an expermental. It will most likely be a Van's RV of some type, nose wheel (probably a 7A or 8A).

Need to check on insurance today.

[JarheadBoom]

I should have been a bit more specific. The $250/mo covers more than just hangar. It covers the GPS updates and NexRad wx subscription along w/ a few other fixed costs.

I really think the 182 is a good deal but, I'm leaning towards an expermental. It will most likely be a Van's RV of some type, nose wheel (probably a 7A or 8A).

Need to check on insurance today.

Gotcha. The number is much more believable now.

My wife and I are going to build an RV-9 someday... hopefully soon. I've got the Van's practice kit on the way to test my paint scheme. Gotta get the PPL first before getting too far into the build, though.

Still trying to talk her into an RV-8......

Edited December 29, 2008 by JarheadBoom

[Jughead]

REVIVAL

I was asked in another thread about my airplane. Since showing off my baby is one of my favorite pastimes, I'm happy to comply, but this seemed a better place to do it.

Roxy is a 1990 Socata TB-20 "Trinidad." 4-seat (marketed as 5-seat--true if your backseaters are under age 6, I suppose), retract, constant speed prop, 250HP. I flight plan for 140 true & 12 gph, I typically see 145 KTAS & 11.5 gph. With full tanks (86.2 gal) I can carry 700 pounds (which, interestingly, is exactly 4x 175lb "FAA adults") around 1,000 nm (no wind/no reserve). Ceiling of 20,000' (though, since I haven't bothered w/ O2, I haven't been above 14K). Garmin 530W (W = WAAS capable) & handheld XM WX make it a cross country machine--which is exactly what I use it for. I've been as far east as Martha's Vineyard, as far west as Death Valley, as far north as Oshkosh, and as far south as Key West. I haven't set foot on an airline aside from TDY travel (and then only when beyond Roxy's effective range--I love flying myself TDY & having the AF pay for my flying habit) since I got her, and I can feel the lack of stress adding years to my life. My favorite logbook entry is taking off from Death Valley & landing at Leadville, CO--i.e., the lowest to the highest airports in North America, over 10,000' elevation change--but they're all great entries, at the end of the day.

Jughead Airlines is usually open to hitchhikers, so if ever our paths cross you could easily get the chance to log some TB-20 time....

What do YOU fly when you're not at work??

[MODS: I suggest renaming this thread to something like "The General Aviation Thread"; I almost missed it in my search, and from the very first post it's been about more than aerobatic airplanes]

[Jughead]

I'm in the market for a RV-4, seems like a good combination of aerobatics, speed, and economical fuel burn.

Everyone I know who flies an RV likes them a LOT, for the same reasons you cite. Do you plan to build it yourself? They certainly have a robust user group!!

Me, I love the *concept* of building my own, but I have to suspect I'd be the guy who gets it 15% finished and then it sits in the garage gathering dust--if I have the time to *work* on an airplane, that's time I'd rather spend *flying* an airplane....

[ellsworb]

Everyone I know who flies an RV likes them a LOT, for the same reasons you cite. Do you plan to build it yourself? They certainly have a robust user group!!

Me, I love the *concept* of building my own, but I have to suspect I'd be the guy who gets it 15% finished and then it sits in the garage gathering dust--if I have the time to *work* on an airplane, that's time I'd rather spend *flying* an airplane....

"2". . mostly. Depends on the kind of acro you want. IAC is hesitant to advertise too much w/in as there isn't a whole lot of stress data on spars after hard and outside maneuvering. Last meeting I was at there was hint at a One Design profile being put together, minimizing the downline maneuvers all together.

I can attest to the RV8 being a GEM to fly in formation. An absolute joy.

Lots of helpers out there if you decide to build.

I'm still voting for my Model 12

[Gravedigger]

Roxy is a 1990 Socata TB-20 "Trinidad."

The Trinidad is an awesome airplane. I flew with a guy from Marietta, GA to Independence, KS (to pick up a new 172)...and he had 1/8th tanks when we landed ~5 hours later. Pretty impressive. It was a great plane, but not very well known from what I've seen.

As far as aerobatic GA aircraft. I had the pleasure of flying with the GAANG commander in his Zlin a couple years ago and that was one of the most exciting flights of my life, a close second to riding with the Red Barons for some aerobatics. I don't know what it would cost for the Zlin, but if you have the means, I would say go for it.

My BFR expired 5 years ago, and I have the itch to get back into GA. It's just so difficult to justify it right now.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Gravedigger

[Whitman]

Everyone I know who flies an RV likes them a LOT, for the same reasons you cite. Do you plan to build it yourself? They certainly have a robust user group!!

Me, I love the *concept* of building my own, but I have to suspect I'd be the guy who gets it 15% finished and then it sits in the garage gathering dust--if I have the time to *work* on an airplane, that's time I'd rather spend *flying* an airplane....

Building sounds like it would be fun after retirement when free time is more available but that's not in the cards right now. There are a decent amount of 3's and 4's on barnstormers and I've got a friend who's cousin is selling his RV-4 in Illinois that I need to check on. Sometimes the chase is the best part!

[discus]

I'll kick in to the "What do you fly" with my airplanes.

#1 1947 Cessna 120. 85 Horse, 80 Kts Cruise. Great for the dirt strips and general putting around the country.

#2 1982 Schempp-Hirth Discus B sailplane. 135 KT red line, great for challenging yourself against the weather, cross country racing and general bad-assedness.

#3 1962 Bellanca 14-19-3A. 250 HP 160 Kt Cruise@ 12GPH. Great for getting around the country and out of Clovis with a quickness.

[Jughead]

I'll kick in to the "What do you fly" with my airplanes.

Discus, glad to see you've succumbed to Multiple Airplane Syndrome with style! I hope to join the ranks of the MAS-afflicted someday, but that will likely be post-Air Force.

That Bellanca is beautiful--when I was shopping, I looked at those, but I was scared (perhaps unreasonably) of ragwings for my first airplane.

[discus]

Discus, glad to see you've succumbed to Multiple Airplane Syndrome with style! I hope to join the ranks of the MAS-afflicted someday, but that will likely be post-Air Force.

That Bellanca is beautiful--when I was shopping, I looked at those, but I was scared (perhaps unreasonably) of ragwings for my first airplane.

The ragwing is not a problem, actually. Fabric is very easy to work with and repair. Besides, I picked that plane up for $20,000. Find me another 4 seat 160 knot airplane for that price. The bigger concern for me was the wood spars/wings. I inspected it very carefully for any damage prior to buying. Not really a problem here in New Mexico, but if it had been sitting in Florida or Houston for any length of time, it would quickly become an issue.

I know there are some other folks here that fly for fun! C'mon, let's wee what ya got! (STS)

[EvilEagle]

I've got a Glasair, but that's not as aerobatic as the Citabria. It is cheap to fly - which is why I bought it. I commute about 96 miles one way to work everyday in it. 7 gph and 150 knots doesn't suck.

[brabus]

You commute to work in your own airplane!?! Evil, you sir, are a bastard!

[Whitman]

I've got a Glasair, but that's not as aerobatic as the Citabria. It is cheap to fly - which is why I bought it. I commute about 96 miles one way to work everyday in it. 7 gph and 150 knots doesn't suck.

Did you have to get special permission from the Wing/CC at Tyndall to do that? Very nice Glassair!

Edited June 10, 2010 by Whitman

[bagasticks]

I fly corporately for an avionics manufacturer on the side and get the priviledge of flying a variety of GA planes to tradeshows/demos and my favs are as follows:

-Mooney Ovation 2, it's fast and has looooong legs

-Cirrus SR22 G3, same as above, just dont get slow on short final

-RV8, flies like a baby-doll and great fuel burn. .

-G36 Bonanza, Cadillac and anyone can land it well (even my zero time wife), terrible fuel burn though

-North American Navion, army tank that is light on the controls and very comfortable

of course i could afford to own none of the above at a half mil per (except the Navion). . .so here is my list of affordable fun planes:

-Luscombe Model 8, metal frame, excellent fuel burn, agile, easy/cheap to maintain, relatively fast

-Super Decathlon, one shouldnt be able to so easily scare another human for this cheap (be careful of the wood spar inspections)

-T28 Trojan, the most affordable way to have a real radial warbird, tricycle gear, less than 200k if you shop around

-Yak 52, simple, aerobatic, plentiful, cheap, pretty fast, metal

Finally, as an A&P IA with about 15 years of messing with the above mentioned (both breaking and fixing), i will list the absolute must do's if you buy an airplane:

-have an IA do a pre buy inspection (research all AD's and make sure log books are complete)

-get one with a fresh annual so you have time to get acquainted with it before it drops dead

-research maintenance requirements (some airplanes cost as much as 2-3k total to annual)

-unless you need it, just get a VFR certified plane (keeps it much simpler)

-make sure the engines are low time SMOH unless you want to turn around and drop 25k

-research accident history, some things are acceptable some are not.

-if it's dope/fabric. . .buy carefully as it is expensive and time consuming to refurbish (the right way)

[HuggyU2]

-make sure the engines are low time SMOH unless you want to turn around and drop 25k

I'm no A&P by any stretch of the imagination, but I'd like to comment on this.

First, I've just read some data on engine failures: a large percentage (it might have been the majority) failed shortly after the overhaul. I can't remember how many hours "shortly" is, but it was a large window.

High time engines with good compression checks were quite reliable. There is a school of thought out there pushing to let high time engines keep flying if periodic inspections are good.

Second, I'd rather buy a timed out engine for three reasons: 1. it will be cheaper 2. the reason above 3. I can get it rebuilt by a high end rebuilder (like Penn Yan or the guy near Fresno, CA) and know it was done right.

Just an observation & opinion.

BTW, sticks, it sounds like you are having a very good time. Nice to see someone here maxing out the flying-fun meter.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Huggyu2

[bagasticks]

I'm no A&P by any stretch of the imagination, but I'd like to comment on this.

First, I've just read some data on engine failures: a large percentage (it might have been the majority) failed shortly after the overhaul. I can't remember how many hours "shortly" is, but it was a large window.

High time engines with good compression checks were quite reliable. There is a school of thought out there pushing to let high time engines keep flying if periodic inspections are good.

Second, I'd rather buy a timed out engine for three reasons: 1. it will be cheaper 2. the reason above 3. I can get it rebuilt by a high end rebuilder (like Penn Yan or the guy near Fresno, CA) and know it was done right.

Just an observation & opinion.

BTW, sticks, it sounds like you are having a very good time. Nice to see someone here maxing out the flying-fun meter.

all of your points are valid, i made the rec of a low time engine due most new aircraft owners not having the resources to deal with that can of worms. . .i should have stated that i would not buy an aircraft with less than 250 hours on the engine either.

BTW, i'll be out that way (BAB) next week to see you guys. .

[JarheadBoom]

<snip>

-RV8, flies like a baby-doll and great fuel burn.

<snip>

of course i could afford to own none of the above at a half mil per (except the Navion)

You can get into a nice VFR RV-8 for well under $100k. Hell, you can get into a nice IFR RV-8 for under $100k if you do some homework, and don't want glass everything in the panel...

edit: format

Edited June 11, 2010 by JarheadBoom

[EvilEagle]

Did you have to get special permission from the Wing/CC at Tyndall to do that? Very nice Glassair!

Thanks fellas. It was pretty short notice. We had a by-name hire for my wife to go to Tyndall (WSEP) but then she got Pensacola instead. (commander issues) Anyway, we had already done 12 months (of the 13 we'd been married) apart, so we didn't want to do another 2 years. The drive is about 3 hours (when it's not spring break traffic) so we couldn't even live in the middle. Buying a small plane was just the best thing (and coolest) that we could come up with.

I'm lucky that Tyndall has an aeroclub onbase, so it's easy to get permission to land if you are an aeroclub member. It's been working out pretty good, been commuting for about 9 months now. Went with the Glasair because it's 150 knots at about 7.5 gph. It's NOT roomy though. We're happy - first plane so it's a learning experience.

Brabus: I take that as a compliment!

Edited June 11, 2010 by EvilEagle

[Gravedigger]

Thanks fellas. It was pretty short notice. We had a by-name hire for my wife to go to Tyndall (WSEP) but then she got Pensacola instead. (commander issues) Anyway, we had already done 12 months (of the 13 we'd been married) apart, so we didn't want to do another 2 years. The drive is about 3 hours (when it's not spring break traffic) so we couldn't even live in the middle. Buying a small plane was just the best thing (and coolest) that we could come up with.

I'm lucky that Tyndall has an aeroclub onbase, so it's easy to get permission to land if you are an aeroclub member. It's been working out pretty good, been commuting for about 9 months now. Went with the Glasair because it's 150 knots at about 7.5 gph. It's NOT roomy though. We're happy - first plane so it's a learning experience.

Brabus: I take that as a compliment!

This is just a freaking badass story I'm glad you guys found a way to make it work!

[bagasticks]

You can get into a nice VFR RV-8 for well under $100k. Hell, you can get into a nice IFR RV-8 for under $100k if you do some homework, and don't want glass everything in the panel...

edit: format

you're right, i was refering to the G3, M20, and G36. . you can get into an RV pretty cheap (although i aint spending 100k on a homebuilt unless i built it and it has G900X installed)

[HuggyU2]

Did you have to get special permission from the Wing/CC at Tyndall to do that?

I checked with my airfield manager: no reason you should have to get permission from the Wing/CC, as a general rule. According to him, active duty and retirees should be able to get access with just a bit of paperwork.

I know, I know... someone will have a "my Wing CC wouldn't let you land here" story. I'm just going with what I'm told. Five of us were partnering on an aircraft, and flying it to work was not a big deal when we asked.

[moosepileit]

Civil Aircraft Landing Permits (DD 2401s) went to the Pentagon.

With them you waive the right to sue if anything goes wrong, and you ack. that amn snuffy may drive into you parked airplane with his SF Car while distracted.

If YOU do something wrong, they may come after you. You prove insurance, enter the equipment type, wait a bit- then commute to work and get into airshows the fun way.

Having access to a safe place to park and fuel is not guaranteed.

Edited June 11, 2010 by moosepileit

[ellsworb]

I'm no A&P by any stretch of the imagination, but I'd like to comment on this.

First, I've just read some data on engine failures: a large percentage (it might have been the majority) failed shortly after the overhaul. I can't remember how many hours "shortly" is, but it was a large window.

High time engines with good compression checks were quite reliable. There is a school of thought out there pushing to let high time engines keep flying if periodic inspections are good.

Second, I'd rather buy a timed out engine for three reasons: 1. it will be cheaper 2. the reason above 3. I can get it rebuilt by a high end rebuilder (like Penn Yan or the guy near Fresno, CA) and know it was done right.

Just an observation & opinion.

BTW, sticks, it sounds like you are having a very good time. Nice to see someone here maxing out the flying-fun meter.

Huggy, I whole heartedly agree. I'm of the VERY strong opinion that a timed out engine is the best of all worlds, doing exactly as you cited, getting a Boutique overhaul. Additionally, I spend much more time analyzing the DATE since last overhaul. I don't care if it only has 200 hrs on the engine if the OH was 20 years ago!