Aerobatic General Aviation plane info

[Ice Cream]

My father just purchased a T-18 Thorp. It's a homebuilt that looks and handles almost like an RV-6, yet it is about 1/3 the price. If the Van's RV line is a bit pricey for you, the T-18 might be something to consider.

Edited June 11, 2010 by VNE

[Jughead]

I checked with my airfield manager: no reason you should have to get permission from the Wing/CC, as a general rule. According to him, active duty and retirees should be able to get access with just a bit of paperwork.

I know, I know... someone will have a "my Wing CC wouldn't let you land here" story. I'm just going with what I'm told. Five of us were partnering on an aircraft, and flying it to work was not a big deal when we asked.

Civil Aircraft Landing Permits (DD 2401s) went to the Pentagon.

With them you waive the right to sue if anything goes wrong, and you ack. that amn snuffy may drive into you parked airplane with his SF Car while distracted.

If YOU do something wrong, they may come after you. You prove insurance, enter the equipment type, wait a bit- then commute to work and get into airshows the fun way.

Having access to a safe place to park and fuel is not guaranteed.

You guys are both right--but you've each only got part of the story.

There are no fewer than three forms required:

DD2400 (Civil Aircraft Certificate of Insurance): filled out by your insurance company (not you), so depending on your insurer this may or may not be quick. The hassle here is that any permit (DD2401) expires not later than the insurance, and you can't get the permit without valid insurance--so, if you're on an annual renewal insurance (as the overwhelming majority of policies are), you're just about guaranteed to have a gap in your permit from your renewal date until you can get the new paperwork processed. The way to beat this is to get your company to write a 2-year (w/ annual renewal) policy--not common, but most will do it. Why this has to be more complicated than your (equally required) auto insurance for base access is beyond me.

DD2401 (Civil Aircraft Landing Permit): easy to fill out, but where to submit it is where the disconnect lies. If you just want to get a single base, the airfield manager can approve it. If you want the flexibility to go to, say, "Any CONUS AFB," then you have to submit to the appropriate office at the Pentagon (not quick). I'm told in theory you can get approval for, say, "Any ACC AFB," but I doubt there's any point if you're going to submit to a HHQ in going for anything less than HAF. Each Service handles things a bit differently. In my experience: Army is easy & quick--send them the paperwork, you'll get an authorization; Air Force is easy but NOT quick; Navy is a PITA.

DD2402 (Civil Aircraft Hold Harmless Agreement): just what it sounds like; simple form.

In all cases, you'll still need a PPR to land at a military field--that's where the Wing/CC & aero club concerns come in. If the airfield manager doesn't know how (doesn't want) to deal with a small GA aircraft, or if there's CC guidance saying "no," then having the landing permit will do you no good. Bases with aero clubs are exponentially easier on this score, because the airfield manager knows how to deal with you and there's already parking (and probably some amount of servicing) available on the field. You and I may know it's no big deal to push your airplane off the side of the ramp & tie down to some stakes that you brought with you--but that would completely freak out your average AFB airfield manager.

You also need to send the forms in separately for all three services (assuming you care to land at Navy and/or Army fields). In other words, if you want a "blanket" mil field authorization, you need three separate (and slightly different) DD2400s from your insurance company (they'll know what to do), and three separate DD2401 & DD2402s. The regs were written before the days of color copiers and still include an assumption that a signature in blue ink guarantees an original signature--and your paperwork WILL be rejected if not signed in blue (you and the ins co, where applicable--again, the ins co knows this).

AF & Army rules are straightforward--if you have access to the base in general then you should be able to get the auth number. Navy rules are more along the lines of "if you have business here"--so, if you're going TDY to a NAS, you can probably get the permit (timely, though? I doubt it), but I've had no success getting a blanket one.

Once you've got the the auth number, you call ahead for a PPR, then file both the auth & PPR numbers on your flight plan (you can arrive/depart VFR to a military base, but you *must* be on an [activated] flight plan). I usually call flight service en route and get them to call the destination base ops, just to be sure they're expecting me.

I flew myself to work a few times while I was in C. Springs (Peterson). Since I had to drive longer just to get to my airplane than I would have to get to work, this wasn't about saving time but about wanting the plane there for after work. Still, it was pretty damn cool pulling up to the aero club ramp, shutting down, going to work--and then doing the reverse at the end of the day!

[czecksikhs]

CH, have you made much progress on the Turbine Legend you put a deposit on? I've been thinking about going that route.

[Learjetter]

**REVIVAL**

I've made the decision to get an airplane. May have lost my AF Medical (but not FAA), and methinks it would be quite fun to fly myself and family around. As for what I'm looking at: IFR turbo twin. So---for those of you who've done this before--what is the process you used to buy your airplane? Escrow service or write-a-check? How did you obtain training in the aircraft you bought? If you were to write a "how to buy an airplane" checklist, what would you put on it? Did you have to travel to inspect it? What insurance company did you select? How did you pay for the airplane (loan? home mortgage?) How did you select a mechanic? Did you buy cheap and upgrade avoinics yourself, or spend more to get avoinics already installed?

This won't be cheap, but it will be fun, I think. My kids don't like the idea as much as I do, since I'm spending their college funds, but that's what the GI Bill is for...Looking forward to hearing your aircraft acquisition stories.

[HuggyU2]

Become an AOPA member: lots of resources for buyers.

[CJ-6A]

**REVIVAL**

I've made the decision to get an airplane. May have lost my AF Medical (but not FAA), and methinks it would be quite fun to fly myself and family around. As for what I'm looking at: IFR turbo twin. So---for those of you who've done this before--what is the process you used to buy your airplane? Escrow service or write-a-check? How did you obtain training in the aircraft you bought? If you were to write a "how to buy an airplane" checklist, what would you put on it? Did you have to travel to inspect it? What insurance company did you select? How did you pay for the airplane (loan? home mortgage?) How did you select a mechanic? Did you buy cheap and upgrade avoinics yourself, or spend more to get avoinics already installed?

This won't be cheap, but it will be fun, I think. My kids don't like the idea as much as I do, since I'm spending their college funds, but that's what the GI Bill is for...Looking forward to hearing your aircraft acquisition stories.

I used to do pre-buys, brokering, ferry, etc... There are some airplanes that you should definitely stay clear of (i.e. P-Navajo)... others are pretty good all around. If you can give up Pressurization and Turbos (semi high mx cost anyways), a 55 series Baron is a really nice ride. Depends on where you're operating it and for how long.. the IO-470 on the 55 Barons is pretty much a "bullet-proof" engine. A good pre-buy is worth the money, unless you feel confident in GA paperwork (ADs, logs, etc), popping panels, etc. Training in a light to cabin class twin is a non-event... most decent pilots will have it figured out by a one hour checkout. If you flown other light recip twins, they're pretty much all the same... with a few minor differences. If you want... PM me and I can give you step through of certain types, etc.

[flynhigh]

Not to stray too far off topic, but are you committed to a twin? How many seats do you need? A turbo-normalized Cirrus is quite the cross-country machine...

[SocialD]

I love flying light twins, but would never want to own one. Not when you can buy a plane like a Cherokee 6 and fly the same or greater payload, while giving up relatively little airspeed, for a fraction of the cost. When you factor MX on that second engine, and a turbo if you add that...your price skyrockets. Also, check on the price of insurance, that alone may be a game changer! Now, I will caveat that with the fact that twin prices are relatively low right now. So if you are set on buying one it's a decent time to do so.

Edited May 27, 2011 by SocialD

[Learjetter]

I'm thinking twin because I'm flying precious pink bodies, may also do some part 135 work, and, while my chances of an engine failure double, my chances of a forced landing off airport decrease to almost zero. As for turbo, much of my anticipated/desired mission occurs at high DA airports. It's absolutely more expensive, no doubt.

[Tinker51]

A solid pre-purchase inspection is a must.

Most of the type clubs can recommend maintenance shops that are familiar with the type to do a pre-purchase.

You can gauge the level of pre-purchase inspection required by looking through the log books if you are familiar enough with the general maintenance requirements. When I bought my airplane (Super Decathlon) I found that it had been back to the factory four years prior for complete overhaul including new wings and the following year had everything firewall forward overhauled. Based on that information I was comfortable with finding a local mechanic who was familiar with fabric aircraft to conduct a pre-purchase. A buddy was looking to purchase a T-210 and the aircraft he wanted had been sitting for a while. He contacted the Cessna Pilot's Association and they pointed him towards a reputable shop near the seller that was familiar with T-210s. He did something which I thought was quite clever. He agreed to pay the cost of an annual inspection while the seller agreed to pay for all the squawks discovered during the inspection. It worked out well. The standard inspection at the time was around $1800 but the squawk list totaled well over $6000.

Decide on a type and start shopping for insurance. You will find that anything with multi motors and/or six seats will have some pretty high liability premiums.

Turbos are nice but you can pretty much guarantee that you will be doing a top overhaul at mid life.

Avionics are sort of like a house with a remodeled kitchen. It will probably be cheaper and a whole lot easier in the long run if you buy something that already has been upgraded. Same holds true for cosmetics (paint and interior).

[JarheadBoom]

...may also do some part 135 work...

Your maintenance requirements will be much more stringent (read: much more expensive) if you do any Part 135 flying in your airplane. You're also opening a huge Pandora's Box of liability by flying Part 135 ops in a personally-owned aircraft. Tread carefully if you decide you want to continue down that particular path...

[ellsworb]

I just completed an 18 month search and purchase process about 4 months ago for my Bonanza V35TC. PM me if you want to talk about things!

[hindsight2020]

piston twins are worthless single engine. The second engine in piston twins is a false economy.

[Learjetter]

Found a local guy (IA) very familiar with the kind of airplane I'm looking at. I appreciate your words and PMs, all. Will post a photo of my aircraft once I fly it home...

[HuggyU2]

piston twins are worthless single engine. The second engine in piston twins is a false economy.

Apparently, you've never flown an Aircam.

It is the closest you will come to flying on a "magic carpet". And you never worry about losing an engine,... even in a deep canyon.

False economy, maybe. False insurance,... no way.

Edited May 30, 2011 by Huggyu2

[08Dawg]

Slight threadjack-

Looking at buying my own plane (single engine) in a year or so. I think I've got it narrowed down to either a Cessna Cardinal or a Grumman Cheetah/Tiger. Thoughts or opinions on either?

[Gravedigger]

Slight threadjack-

Looking at buying my own plane (single engine) in a year or so. I think I've got it narrowed down to either a Cessna Cardinal or a Grumman Cheetah/Tiger. Thoughts or opinions on either?

Almost bought a Grumman Tiger in college, but I've flown all three aircraft you listed. I would go with a Grumman, because of maneuverability, efficiency, and ergonomics. They are just great flying aircraft, and the visibility is great as well. The downside to low-wings, and especially Grummans is that you can bake on sunny summer days. You should also check out a Grumman Yankee. Are you looking for something to fly cross-country in or something just to fly in the local area? The Cardinal would definitely be my top choice for cross-country flying, but Cardinals are generally quite a bit more expensive than a Tiger/Cheetah.

[08Dawg]

Almost bought a Grumman Tiger in college, but I've flown all three aircraft you listed. I would go with a Grumman, because of maneuverability, efficiency, and ergonomics. They are just great flying aircraft, and the visibility is great as well. The downside to low-wings, and especially Grummans is that you can bake on sunny summer days. You should also check out a Grumman Yankee. Are you looking for something to fly cross-country in or something just to fly in the local area? The Cardinal would definitely be my top choice for cross-country flying, but Cardinals are generally quite a bit more expensive than a Tiger/Cheetah.

Mostly local, with occasional cross countries. I've pretty much ruled out an RG Cardinal due to higher cost and MX upkeep, but it seems speed-wise a Tiger and a 177B are pretty close. Not really looking for alot of load-hauling capability, at the most two people plus me.

[Whitman]

Apparently, you've never flown an Aircam.

It is the closest you will come to flying on a "magic carpet". And you never worry about losing an engine,... even in a deep canyon.

False economy, maybe. False insurance,... no way.

Huggy, that plane looks like a blast. Looking at buying one? Are there any on the used market yet?

[HuggyU2]

Yes, they do come up for sale. I went flying a few months ago on a Saturday. Spent the 1st hour in the aft seat, raging through the American River Canyon. Stopped for breakfast. Then spent the next 2.5 hours in the front seat, running the country side from 20'-200' AGL. There is nothing quite like it.

Actually, the guy was looking to sell it, but I just don't want to swing it right now. I've seen some really nice ones for around $65-70K, but that's a pretty good price, if it has 912's and additional options. Most owners are asking more.

Edited June 1, 2011 by Huggyu2

[Tinker51]

That wouldn't be the one from O61 Cameron Park would it? Didn't know he had it up for sale.

I went for a ride with him a couple months back doing the same thing. Down low and slow out in the breeze. What a kick in the pants.

[Guest CAVEMAN]

Slight threadjack-

Looking at buying my own plane (single engine) in a year or so. I think I've got it narrowed down to either a Cessna Cardinal or a Grumman Cheetah/Tiger. Thoughts or opinions on either?

I would stay away from Grumman products simply for maintenance cost. Parts are not readily available unlike a Cessna. A Cessna 172 with a 180HP power upgrade will be all you need. Plus you can sell the damn thing when you want to move on to something bigger and better. I can count 3 Grumman's on the ramp right now for sale with no offers. Another 172 has been sold and bought within the same time period. I agree they are fun flying.

[HuggyU2]

That wouldn't be the one from O61 Cameron Park would it? Didn't know he had it up for sale.

I went for a ride with him a couple months back doing the same thing. Down low and slow out in the breeze. What a kick in the pants.

Yep, that's him. Dan.

Though, I do not know if he is actively selling it anymore, at the time (8 months ago), he was looking for a partner if he couldn't sell it.

Edited June 1, 2011 by Huggyu2

[Whitman]

Saw this aircam on barnstormers today and thought of this thread. Anyone here going to buy it?

My link

[HuggyU2]

Saw this aircam on barnstormers today and thought of this thread. Anyone here going to buy it?

My link

When I buy one, it will have 912's on it, not 582's.