Flying with Wing Leadership

[Guest Spectre514]

Sorry for the sad stories. Maybe AFSOC has a different focus. I've seen O6 group commanders in AFSOC who not only maintained their IP qual, but were dual qualified in separate MWSs. The last time I flew with a group commander, he showed early for the flight, did more than his share of the planning, was fully engaged during the sortie, flew damn well, and stayed late into the night for the debrief.

Question--how many folks are in squadrons where the squadron commander flies regularly in combat?

[nsplayr]

Sorry for the sad stories. Maybe AFSOC has a different focus. I've seen O6 group commanders in AFSOC who not only maintained their IP qual, but were dual qualified in separate MWSs. The last time I flew with a group commander, he showed early for the flight, did more than his share of the planning, was fully engaged during the sortie, flew damn well, and stayed late into the night for the debrief.

Question--how many folks are in squadrons where the squadron commander flies regularly in combat?

Agreed...the WG/CC down here flies with my squadron. Apparently he was pretty much a regular crew dog from what my buds who flew with him said.

Our squadron commander/DO both are full up CMR and fly downrange almost as frequently as any other member of the squadron.

[Swizzle]

Question--how many folks are in squadrons where the squadron commander flies regularly in combat?

Our SQ/CC & DO fly missions into active theaters somewhat regularly, probably more often than others. Since we're not deployed but TDY into theater(s){CENTAF/AF AFRICA/USAFE} I think it's easier for them to step away from the SQ for short periods. RMS is closer than most Herk SQ's to the theaters though - location, location, location.

[Red Fox]

I've seen good and bad in my 25 years. I know "Moondog" Jackson - good guy. I flew with the AETC/CV when I was a PIT instructor. Once again, good guy - though the squadron CC did QC my briefing board. Also kudos to Gen "Tex" Brown the 354 FW/CC. He would fly without special handling (at least during Cope Thunder). I've also seen the bad - a C-130 Wing/CC who wrote "Intentionally Left Blank" on the additional endorsement of an IP's OPR, because he taxied the plane to the wrong spot when picking him up for a local sortie. I personally went through the currency with another Wing/CC prior to an ASEV and he told me he had never filled out a currency sheet. Most Wing/CC's I've experienced in the MAF needed a seeing eye IP (different than the TAF and AETC). One more story; The AETC/CC from the early 90's demanded a form 70 that had all the ATC frequencies listed in order of sequence, even for X-country. I remember seeing IPs scheduled to fly with him flipping through the charts to find all the possible freqs. The guy was a real "Asheyhole".

Ah the memories! It is what it is.

[Guest Spectre514]

Agreed...the WG/CC down here flies with my squadron. Apparently he was pretty much a regular crew dog from what my buds who flew with him said.

Our squadron commander/DO both are full up CMR and fly downrange almost as frequently as any other member of the squadron.

NSPLAYR, I'm very familiar with your squadron and am glad to hear the CC/DO are carrying the torch downrange. You have the best squadron in the USAF, IMHO.

Also, glad to hear there is still some focus on commanders flying both in garrison and combat.

[Coasta]

Here's my experience with Wg/leadership. I may even start a column here...

If they're gonna offer intelligent--keyword there folks--advice about leadership, flying, or snatch, shut up and listen.

If they can't lead, (or fly the jet for that matter) ####### with them!!! It's better than Halo! If they are actually following you, adjust the heading bug just a touch--wait for them to do the same; open a chart, then nod reassuredly...say nothing--let them find what you "found"; constantly mess w/ the lighting during night time (this is an easy one); my favorite: (I call it stupid auto-pilot) kick off the AP at FL350, say, "I just gotta feel the jet once in a while. I think they rerigged the flight controls, but didn't see it in the forms." More frequency = more points--I actually had a 2-star doing this on his own the 2nd time I flew w/ him. If you can work vertigo into the equation/conversation, multiply by 10. Disclaimer: The above "tricks" are usually for the O-7+ who doesn't talk his ass off when he's flying. If he ain't saying something about flying or poontang, they're usually safe bets. If he catches on, a simple "would I do that?" lightens the load, and it's free beer until his cheap ass goes to bed at 8.

Aides: They usually do most of the bitching because they wanna give their job to you--they wear the Gen's rank like his wife does. Call your CC before you do this (because you've flown w/ the gen before). The riot act is too short for this douchenozzle O-3 - O-5 shoe trainee. Recite to them General Flight Rules, AFI 11-2F/C whatever, and my dick is bigger than yours--steer way clear of tongue and quill and shoe regs--for he is an expert. Make fun of said aide to Gen Feltersnatch over intercom cuz it's too loud for him to hear. Repeat at will.

The O-6: New to actual command w/o a squadron--attached! Careful here. These guys can make you a smoking-hole retired O-4 yesterday. The Col wants placards? Delegate. The Col wants bios? Delegate. The bio nonsense is there guys, just lighten the load. There are enough guys sitting at home playing XBox--me inclusive. THEY can do all that. It take a couple mins. A menial task delegated is a task accomplished... Hey Load!

Next week: Dicking with your boss' secretary.

Edited for proper use of the words: ###### and ######.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Coasta

[Kaman]

We in the "senior service" don't have all this frilly nonsense when it comes to our Carrier Air Wing Commander flying. He briefs, flies and is a combat-ready aviator or NFO. If the CAG is an aviator he is REQUIRED to be day/night trap qual'd on two types in the air wing and is pilot in model qualified in everything else. As a caveat, my father was a USAF LCOL and pilot and I never recall him mentionining any of the above nonsense when it came to flying with Wing Commander or any O-6s attached to Wing Headquarters. As a matter of fact, one of our wing commanders was killed in the crash of an EC-121H while trying to make it to Nantucket with an uncontrolled fire. He was a B-24 pilot in WWII and I doubt if he stood on much ceremony when he flew an ACTIVE DEW line patrol like every other pilot in his wing. I cannot believe that the Air Force has really come to this nonsense...protocol is for VIPs arriving at the Air Terminal. If an officer is that pretentious and pompous about being in charge it calls into question how our leaders are being selected. You lead by example...This is a crappy example to set for enlisted and officers alike.

This is F***ing Wing Commander! Not these dips**t prima donnas mentioned above!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Olds

Edited November 24, 2010 by Kaman

[Steve Davies]

The guy was a real "Asheyhole".

I am guessing that was Gen. Ashy. I understand that he made few friends when he was the TFWC CC at Nellis.

[HerkDerka]

Unacceptable and mind-numbingly maddening in every way I can possibly think of. Probably part of the reason the T-6 world is fat on BUDDA drivers.

Leadership? Nope.

Grand standing? Definitely.

Wasting time and rescources? Sure thing.

FW&A? Shack.

Good example? Negative.

Uber gay? Absolutely.

Contradictory to everything you're ever taught as a pilot? You bet.

GearMonkey, I'd recommend forwarding a copy of that memo to the local IG.

[brickhistory]

No doubt. The REALITY in the USAF is that "Like promotes Like". I.E. 90% of the guys in CC spots have been so-in-so's exec at some point. That is ok in my book - it helps build experience and if you have a good boss, shows you the true lay of the land. However, I have a problem with the guys who know ZERO about the jet, have been everyone's exec and nothing else, and end up 3 BTZ boy-wonder Colonels, most lacking in capability (hands) as well as leadership; they are pompus, arrogant, and out of touch with the men and women they lead.

I served with a guy in my first assignment in missiles who went from 1Lt to O-6 riding the exec express. Started as wing exec (volunteered for that job), wound up hitching his wagon to a now retired 4-star. Followed his benefactor around like a faithful dog for multiple consecutive assignments save for both IDE and SDE in-residence - BTZ major, Lt Col, Col. His deployments consisted of being the luggage master for his sugar-daddy who would show (his) flag.

Edited November 25, 2010 by brickhistory

[Guest]

I've seen good and bad in my 25 years. I know "Moondog" Jackson - good guy.

Great shit. I got kicked out of the Cat West at Ft Camobell with Moondog when we were both Captains.

Also kudos to Gen "Tex" Brown the 354 FW/CC. He would fly without special handling (at least during Cope Thunder).

One of the best bosses I've ever had. Good pilot, good athlete, good shit.

[brabus]

I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading here! I'm with SocialD on this one, all leadership from the Wing/CC down will plan as much as they can (sometimes they can't get away and then they even apologize for not making it to help out with planning...definitely not even remotely required). Many times the OG or Wing/CC will be in for several hours on Sunday planning for a Monday sortie. After the flight, they stay for a full debrief, even if it's 5 hrs (barring anything coming up in the Wing they have to deal with), and they offer great instruction. Depending on what you're doing, they'll go out there and kick the shit out of you...they are good at what they do and are far from needing a "seeing-eye IP." On top of all that, they know everyone in the squadron, don't need any retarded bios, nor do they need any information prior to the flight except what type of mission it is and when they'll be there for planning. Sorry to all you guys out there that have to deal with all this assclown leadership.

[Champ Kind]

Sorry to all you guys out there that have to deal with all this assclown leadership.

These clowns remind of those kids you knew in middle/high school that got their lunch money stolen and stuffed into lockers. Please don't intermix these dweebs with the term "leadership."

"Management", at BEST.

[brabus]

Completely agree. Guess I should have put leadership in quotes...obviously there's nothing "leadership" about them.

[busdriver]

Now Gen Haase was then Col Haase and the group commander at Moody. He was a full up tactical IP and made it a point to let scheduling know that we weren't to tell anyone that an O-6 was flying. Treat him just like any line-dog. I remember one time a new scheduler didn't know that and the whole MX greet the O-6 line-up showed up at the aircraft, he played it off even if the maintainers ended up with the attitude of "fuck, it's only the OG!" He ended up telling those of us in scheduling to never do that to him again! I remember being a brand new young co-pilot and only met him in passing, but that guy remembered exactly who I was months later when I finally flew with him. On top of that he was a damn good IP.

Needless to say we often threatened him with the full up DV experience if he didn't fly when we needed an IP, it was a hollow threat and he knew it, but he'd never say no regardless. He was one of those guys who'd re-arrange his schedule last minute to hook up the squadron schedulers.

[Guest Crew Report]

It even happens at the Sq/CC level sometimes. I was R&C'd as an instructor by a basic AC (MP) Sq/CC who was a prior C-17 guy. He had no desire to ever upgrade to IP/EP in the -135 and hated the tanker mission. Thankfully he made O-6 BTZ.

[Champ Kind]

He was one of those guys who'd re-arrange his schedule last minute to hook up the squadron schedulers.

We can hardly ever get O-3/O-4s in group- or wing-level jobs to do that.

Another reason why

is so sad, but true. Edited November 25, 2010 by Champ Kind

[lloyd christmas]

I have to put a positive story out there. Our Wing Commander is the complete opposite. He is easily one of the best aircraft commanders I have ever flown with. Rank doesn't mean much to him on the airplane. He just wants to fly. As a matter of fact, I can't count the times I have been on a weekend trip with him hauling trash somewhere. He is a guy who is approaching the 10K hour mark in military aircraft. He is old school and very respected. They are out there but I realize they are not the norm anymore.

Edited November 25, 2010 by lloyd christmas

[Karl Hungus]

I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading here! I'm with SocialD on this one, all leadership from the Wing/CC down will plan as much as they can (sometimes they can't get away and then they even apologize for not making it to help out with planning...definitely not even remotely required). Many times the OG or Wing/CC will be in for several hours on Sunday planning for a Monday sortie. After the flight, they stay for a full debrief, even if it's 5 hrs (barring anything coming up in the Wing they have to deal with), and they offer great instruction. Depending on what you're doing, they'll go out there and kick the shit out of you...they are good at what they do and are far from needing a "seeing-eye IP." On top of all that, they know everyone in the squadron, don't need any retarded bios, nor do they need any information prior to the flight except what type of mission it is and when they'll be there for planning. Sorry to all you guys out there that have to deal with all this assclown leadership.

Methinks there's a HUGE difference between the ACC and AMC world.

I'm watching every good dude palace chasing and getting out as I speak.

[Coasta]

Methinks there's a HUGE difference between the ACC and AMC world.

I'm watching every good dude palace chasing and getting out as I speak.

Guys, it comes from higher than the WG/OG. Most of those guys I flew with (WG/OG CC's) were good sticks save a few. I like to think that most of the "good guys" are getting out because they see something horribly wrong with how leadership is stratified (just to begin). Unfortunately, on high, where they decide who get's promoted, it needs to be simplified and dumbed down to who has boxes checked (down at the O-3/4 lvl). That's why I think most good pilots (or those who are pilot's before officers) palace chase, punch, get out, or outright quit. It's because they don't want to be put up to the light with some ass-snorkel exec who want's to be a general--not because one or the other is better, but because it's apples and oranges.

Here's a good poll: Who here would retire as an O-4/5 if you could fly/instruct the entire time?

I think the numbers would be drastically different, culture too, if that were again an option. We'd also have a more experienced AF (10-15 O-4/5 IPs/sqdn that are solely dedicated to flying). Fellas would refuse the bonus like wildfire also, because it's a good job/career. What you got now are folks who are completely inept in thier job (save a few), that follow that long brown line of careerism.

Good luck Karl.

[Champ Kind]

As someone that's going to leave his first assignment with an IP qual, Master's knocked out, and SOS in-res complete, I would absolutely sign a piece of paper saying I'd stay in for 20 years as long as I made O-5 and could fly/instruct the whole time.

...not sure about refusing the bonus, though. Maybe if they incorporated the above "deal" in with the bonus, it would be ever more appealing.

[Murph]

Boy, someone at charleston thinks pretty highly of his/herself. Un-friggin-believable.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

We can hardly ever get O-3/O-4s in group- or wing-level jobs to do that.

Another reason why

is so sad, but true.

that's why you become the master of the bait-and-switch. Throw out the cattle call email about a tail swap or some similar good deal, and when those dudes perpetually come out of the woodwork (indicating their schedule is clear that week) put them on locals. If they try to worm out of them, forward the email traffic to their DO, along with the RAP tracker that shows those dudes WAY behind on RAP. Works every time.

[nrodgsxr]

As someone that's going to leave his first assignment with an IP qual, Master's knocked out, and SOS in-res complete, I would absolutely sign a piece of paper saying I'd stay in for 20 years as long as I made O-5 and could fly/instruct the whole time.

...not sure about refusing the bonus, though. Maybe if they incorporated the above "deal" in with the bonus, it would be ever more appealing.

I'd go one further and give up my commission to be a warrant officer if that was possible.

Hell I'd stay O-3 for 20 just flying if that was possible.

[HuggyU2]

Hell I'd stay O-3 for 20 just flying if that was possible.

It is.