Gen Welsh - USAF Chief of Staff

[nsplayr]

Worded differently (and more to the point of the discussion I had with my sq/cc) if I've "checked the box by doing it online" why do I need to spend more time TDY away from my family to go in res?". His response to that question was that there's no pooint to SOS in res if you're not going to be a DG.

That at least makes more sense, but it just highlights how messed up things are at the Wing. There is zero reason why anyone going in-res needs to do the correspondence program yet here we all are.

Also, I kinda disagree with the attitude that the only reason to attend in-res training is to check the DG box on your records. Does your CC really believe there is so little value in the training itself? Why not just look at correspondence test scores and whoever scored the highest gets "DG" and we could save a sh*t-load of money sending tons of people TDY for 8 weeks?

[pawnman]

That at least makes more sense, but it just highlights how messed up things are at the Wing. There is zero reason why anyone going in-res needs to do the correspondence program yet here we all are.

Also, I kinda disagree with the attitude that the only reason to attend in-res training is to check the DG box on your records. Does your CC really believe there is so little value in the training itself? Why not just look at correspondence test scores and whoever scored the highest gets "DG" and we could save a sh*t-load of money sending tons of people TDY for 8 weeks?

Because AU feels that would diminish their in-res program?

Seriously, I didn't learn anything from the curriculum. It was a good chance to mix with officers from other AFSCs...that novelty wore off sometime around week 2. The rest was a paid vacation.

[Pancake]

Ex: why the F do I have to do SOS online so I can compete to go in res? This was a lengthy discussion, but the answer that got me to shut up was that its to compete to be a DG and like it or not, the AF values SOS DG.

You're mistaken. The Air Force values one thing and one thing only: Strat.

Your commander may value SOS DG, but the Air Force only cares about that first bullet on you OPR.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Pancake

[Herk Driver]

You're mistaken. The Air Force values one thing and one thing only: Strat.

Your commander may value SOS DG, but the Air Force only cares about that first bullet on you OPR.

I will have to disagree with you.

Ask any senior rater or guy that has sat on a promotion board and I think they will tell you that they disagree with you as well. Strats are important, but don't underestimate any DG, especially SOS DG. SOS is one of the first times that you get back together with 600-ish of your best friends from across the USAF and 10% (or less) were selected as having risen to the top of that group of people. That AF475 is in your record...it gets looked at.

[tac airlifter]

I will have to disagree with you.

Ask any senior rater or guy that has sat on a promotion board and I think they will tell you that they disagree with you as well. Strats are important, but don't underestimate any DG, especially SOS DG. SOS is one of the first times that you get back together with 600-ish of your best friends from across the USAF and 10% (or less) were selected as having risen to the top of that group of people. That AF475 is in your record...it gets looked at.

Along those lines, does top third or any of that other shit get looked at?

[backseatdriver]

Yes. Any kind of award like that (DG, Top 1/3, Oustanding Contributor, etc) should be included in your PRF. It demonstrates that you outperformed your peers in a competitive environment (whether it's PME, a schoolhouse, or whatever)

Alibi - I'm referring to an actual "Top Third" award, not just if you were stratted in the top third of a class or something

Edited October 7, 2013 by backseatdriver

[NKAWTG]

DG from SOS is one of the most valuable markers you can have in your record. It relieves the SR from actually needing to make a judgement call because some Captain from Maxwell did it for them. I know that's a damn cynical view, but the leadership looks at it as a stratification against the broadest pool of officers possible. The value in SOS is in that DG award, because it provides a way for the SR to sorta amoung the pack of records that look exactly the same. I've seen an annual award winner from SOS ride that two below to Lt Col. Good person, but nothing that screamed absolutely best of the best.

[LockheedFix]

DG from SOS is one of the most valuable markers you can have in your record. It relieves the SR from actually needing to make a judgement call because some Captain from Maxwell did it for them. I know that's a damn cynical view, but the leadership looks at it as a stratification against the broadest pool of officers possible. The value in SOS is in that DG award, because it provides a way for the SR to sorta amoung the pack of records that look exactly the same. I've seen an annual award winner from SOS ride that two below to Lt Col. Good person, but nothing that screamed absolutely best of the best.

This. Given the high correlation between SOS DG and being a school select out of the O-4 boards, and then the high correlation between being a school select and the subsequent BPZ selection to O-5, our future leaders are literally being picked by majors from the comm squadron when they are junior captains. Ridiculous.

[Pancake]

High correlation of SOS DG and IDE selects? Can you show me the numbers? Personally, I think most of you are posting what you'd like to believe, not reality. I was the only DG (and Top Contributor) in my SOS flight... No school. My wing had a guy that was the number one SOS grad in his entire class... No school. Just about every pilot in my community was SOS DG, but only a small percentage were IDE selects. In my SOS class, I'd say at least two-thirds of the DGs were pilots, mostly 11Fs. The problem lies in the reality that fighter pilots can't be the only people that get the limited number of in-res IDE slots. The Air Force wants/needs diverse AFSC representation at ACSC, etc... So, while SOS DG may be a big deal in your community and earns you the coveted "My #1 of 69 CGOs" strat, DG is meaningless in a community where everyone is an SOS DG.

Like my commander said to me before leaving for SOS, "if you don't get DG, don't come back." It was expected that you'd be a DG out of SOS in my community. Oddly enough, the #1 strat that year was not a DG. He got in-res ACSC... More proof that strat is the only thing that matters.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Pancake

[Nineline]

High correlation of SOS DG and IDE selects? Can you show me the numbers? Personally, I think most of you are posting what you'd like to believe, not reality. I was the only DG (and Top Contributor) in my SOS flight... No school. My wing had a guy that was the number one SOS grad in his entire class... No school. Just about every pilot in my community was SOS DG, but only a small percentage were IDE selects. In my SOS class, I'd say at least two-thirds of the DGs were pilots, mostly 11Fs. The problem lies in the reality that fighter pilots can't be the only people that get the limited number of in-res IDE slots. The Air Force wants/needs diverse AFSC representation at ACSC, etc... So, while SOS DG may be a big deal in your community and earns you the coveted "My #1 of 69 CGOs" strat, DG is meaningless in a community where everyone is an SOS DG.

Like my commander said to me before leaving for SOS, "if you don't get DG, don't come back." It was expected that you'd be a DG out of SOS in my community. Oddly enough, the #1 strat that year was not a DG. He got in-res ACSC... More proof that strat is the only thing that matters.

This. My experience is exactly the same as Pancake's. In fact, based upon his example, I initially thought we were from the same wing. The main discriminator for IDE in res? Your strat and push from the wing. If SOS DG doesn't get you a DP and the wing's top push at your O-4 PRF, then there isn't much it is going to do other than be a final discriminator if you sit on the cut line at your next promotion board.

-9-

[disgruntledemployee]

From what I've seen, its the stratification of DPs that helps get you school. But that was so once upon a time. But if the AF is relying upon that awesome SOS program to select the next LTCs of the AF, time to start getting your nose a bit brown. Oh, don't fly either, that will just open yourself to possible risk of mistake. Hacking the mish is not #1, its #219. You too can the the most awesome Colonels if you just follow my guide to promotion popularity.

Out

[TheInner]

Just like anything else, the record as a whole is what matters and an SOS DG can help but can't completely make up for years of sub-top 10-20% material. I imagine there are probably three categories of people who have SOS DG on their records. First are the people with records that indicate DG is almost a given and the SOS DG just validates everything else to a board and results in essentially an auto-IDE select, i.e. consistent #1 or 2 strats, jobs ahead of peers etc. Second are the people with strong records but maybe they are a late bloomer or have had some ebb and flow with top tier strats, in this case the SOS DG probably helps the most. Third are the people who either pull the wool over the eyes of people at SOS or suck at their job but thrive in the canned SOS environment and get DG, in this case the DG may draw some attention from the board but if it is all that the person has going for them then I sure hope it doesn't equate to the IDE/BPZ career path.

If I were Chief of Staff for a day and my focus was SOS... I would shorten the window for in-residence eligibility, i.e. send folks with just 1 or 2 years as a captain, after that anything of actual value at SOS risks becoming too little, too late. I would then open up the correspondence course after that window of eligibility to guarantee you only do one or the other. I would also make sure SOS was 5 weeks at the absolute most, the one thing that was somewhat valuable was the interaction with a variety of personalities/AFSCs. It may not build confidence in the force as a whole, but it was worth it to me to see what different people and career fields value and deem important.

[Pancake]

Just like anything else, the record as a whole is what matters and an SOS DG can help but can't completely make up for years of sub-top 10-20% material. I imagine there are probably three categories of people who have SOS DG on their records. First are the people with records that indicate DG is almost a given and the SOS DG just validates everything else to a board and results in essentially an auto-IDE select, i.e. consistent #1 or 2 strats, jobs ahead of peers etc. Second are the people with strong records but maybe they are a late bloomer or have had some ebb and flow with top tier strats, in this case the SOS DG probably helps the most. Third are the people who either pull the wool over the eyes of people at SOS or suck at their job but thrive in the canned SOS environment and get DG, in this case the DG may draw some attention from the board but if it is all that the person has going for them then I sure hope it doesn't equate to the IDE/BPZ career path.

My PRF strat was "top 5% of CGOs," whatever that's code for. My point is that even top performers have to distinguish themselves amongst other top performers. That isn't done by performing "just a little bit higher" than your peers.

Promotion and IDE selection is about knowing what your boss values and committing to that path. A personal relationship with your boss is the most important factor in opening opportunities and earning high stratifications on your OPR and PRF. Hard work/top performance is a given. However, the boss is going to push folks for opportunities that reflect his/her leadership style, strengths, and interests. Without those opportunities (be it exec, proj-o, WIC, or ALFA complete), earning a high strat is impossible because you've done nothing (in your boss's eyes) to distinguish yourself amongst your peers. It comes down to trust and Confirmation Bias (they did what I did, I got promoted, so I should promote them). That accounts for the, "How on earth did that guy get school," and "I can't believe that guy didn't get school," which seemed very prevalent when my year group's major board was released.

Generally, the people who get school deserve it, but a lot of really strong swimmers miss out because of timing, relationships (or lack of), and being a big fish in a pool of really big fish. If I could do it again: don't waste your time being like the boss, be someone who the boss wants to be like. Discover what's important to your boss and excel at it to the point that they admire you. If that's SOS DG, then yeah, SOS DG is important. If it's Exec or mountain biking with the boss on the weekends, well, you know what you have to do...

I always thought "go golfing with the boss" was cliche. Turns out it actually makes a big difference in who gets mentored for command and awarded the appropriate opportunities.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Pancake

[Wing Sweep]

Pancake,

Help me understand brother...

You say "well, you know what you have to do" as it pertains to doing what's important to your boss. I agree to an extent. That is, if he wants you to be the exec, do the best you can at that job. If he wants you to be the Chief of Training, do the best at that job. Now, if he says don't come back without an SOS DG, that's a crockpot full of green baby turds! He should be telling you to learn, develop and add to your leadership skills by having the conversations that need to be had among CGOs, listening to instructor/peer experiences, and formulating your own methods to make your wing/group/squadron better. Why is DG required? Because it will help you make rank? What is the priority, making rank or developing leadership?

I think the AF has created so much hype around winning awards and making rank (i.e. follow the model that gets you to be a 4-star general) that developing leaders/leadership has fallen by the wayside. I get that guys will play the game to make rank. It's going to happen, I know; however, it doesn't make it right.

I make it a point never to talk to my subordinates about making DG, winning awards, etc... They should not be striving for awards. They should be striving to be the best officers and best pilots they can be. If one doesn't win an award, fine. If your saying to yourself, "but awards help me out later in life for promotions," that is true, but ask yourself if rank or developing leadership in your subordinates is more important. As a supervisor you should nominate your best for awards. I too often see guys getting awards because (1) they haven't received XYZ award yet or (2) it's your turn since everyone else has received this award. I'm digressing...back on subject.

Bottom line, I don't need to have such a close personal relationship with the boss that I have to golf, ride bikes, etc. with him just because that is what he does. If I happen to enjoy participating in like activities and there is a group setting where others are involved, I'm all for it (e.g. boss takes the Flt/CCs golfing). Solo v solo, never.

Most importantly, I would never do these things in order to earn the "trust and confirmation bias" required to be a step in front of my peers. I participate in extra curricular activities when I can and want to because I enjoy them, rather than to earn a lump of crap on my nose and my next promotion.

Agree, disagree?

Edited October 8, 2013 by g2s

[TheInner]

What is the priority, making rank or developing leadership?

It is the American way. Why wait for something to develop and have to make an effort on something that may not work out when you can stack the deck and all but guarantee a result? Even the little bit of "mentoring" I have received or observed is usually directed at steering someone towards a "good deal," guaranteed XYZ of the month/year, or face time with the boss and not towards building confidence/leadership/etc. A squadron commander should focus on his flight commanders, really challenge them, teach them, mold them, etc. Once the boss has established his priorities and expectations with the flt/ccs then they can continue to push that type of stuff down hill. As a community we tend to expect nothing from lieutenants, a little bit more from a captain but are more likely to correct what they have done without much feedback and then all of a sudden a major is supposed to have their stuff in a sock without exception. If the Chief can really push empowerment of subordinates and some freedom to learn via controlled trial and error I would be incredibly pleased with those changes. The root problem is squadron commanders who don't feel they have the ability to lengthen the leash without it possibly coming back to bite them.

[Liquid]

Pancake,

Help me understand brother...

You say "well, you know what you have to do" as it pertains to doing what's important to your boss. I agree to an extent. That is, if he wants you to be the exec, do the best you can at that job. If he wants you to be the Chief of Training, do the best at that job. Now, if he says don't come back without an SOS DG, that's a crockpot full of green baby turds! He should be telling you to learn, develop and add to your leadership skills by having the conversations that need to be had among CGOs, listening to instructor/peer experiences, and formulating your own methods to make your wing/group/squadron better. Why is DG required? Because it will help you make rank? What is the priority, making rank or developing leadership?

I think the AF has created so much hype around winning awards and making rank (i.e. follow the model that gets you to be a 4-star general) that developing leaders/leadership has fallen by the wayside. I get that guys will play the game to make rank. It's going to happen, I know; however, it doesn't make it right.

I make it a point never to talk to my subordinates about making DG, winning awards, etc... They should not be striving for awards. They should be striving to be the best officers and best pilots they can be. If one doesn't win an award, fine. If your saying to yourself, "but awards help me out later in life for promotions," that is true, but ask yourself if rank or developing leadership in your subordinates is more important. As a supervisor you should nominate your best for awards. I too often see guys getting awards because (1) they haven't received XYZ award yet or (2) it's your turn since everyone else has received this award. I'm digressing...back on subject.

Bottom line, I don't need to have such a close personal relationship with the boss that I have to golf, ride bikes, etc. with him just because that is what he does. If I happen to enjoy participating in like activities and there is a group setting where others are involved, I'm all for it (e.g. boss takes the Flt/CCs golfing). Solo v solo, never.

Most importantly, I would never do these things in order to earn the "trust and confirmation bias" required to be a step in front of my peers. I participate in extra curricular activities when I can and want to because I enjoy them, rather than to earn a lump of crap on my nose and my next promotion.

Agree, disagree?

Well said. We need more of this.

[Spoo]

go to have an 8 week vacation...

I'm glad they've finally compressed five weeks of work into eight. (Actually it's more like two into eight, but whatever...)

[17D_guy]

Well said. We need more of this.

Then please promote it.

[brabus]

I'm glad they've finally compressed five weeks of work into eight. (Actually it's more like two into eight, but whatever...)

I seriously think about 2.5 weeks of what I consider "real" days would accomplish the entire syllabus. We were told a couple times, "sorry guys, tomorrow's going to be a long day" - it was go to class at 830, 1.5 hr lunch, then done about 1600, including countless 15 min breaks. I actually laughed when some space guy complained about how long the day was (then I realized he was serious).

[Gravedigger]

some space guy complained about how long the day was (then I realized he was serious).

Space guy or acquisitions type with a space badge? Most folks in space ops work 12-hour shifts 24/7/365 for at least part of their career. Most folks in LA work 0900-1500 with breaks for lunch and PT and bi-weekly down days. Their hours make FSS look like a North Korean labor camp.

[brabus]

Missile turned space guy...though I realize "space" encompasses quite a broad spectrum. Didn't intend to paint the entire space spectrum as the 9-3 crowd. Whatever this guy's job was (even he couldn't really explain it) happened to be one of those 9-3 with an hour lunch break type of jobs (he did say that).

Their hours make FSS look like a North Korean labor camp.

Are you sure that's even possible! Damn...

[Marlboro BLACK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JIzMyejtZY

[Chida]

So I just watched the latest CSAF video posted above. I guess I must be out of touch, because I don't know what he's talking about. He says the problem is "out there" but I'm just not seeing it, which leads me to conclude that it must be a non-ops squadron issue. Or maybe I am just so totally insensitive that it escapes my attention. Thousands of people are getting cut from the Air Force and this is what he chooses to put forward? Can anyone share a different perspective?

[chim richalds]

he seems like a nice guy, but remember, he gets his marching orders from this bullshit liberal regime.

[SocialD]

I guess I must be out of touch, because I don't know what he's talking about. He says the problem is "out there" but I'm just not seeing it, which leads me to conclude that it must be a non-ops squadron issue.

Ugh, obviously YOU'RE part of the problem! Go sing your rape songs and drink with your mermaid mugs elsewhere!

[/sarcasm]