Gen Welsh - USAF Chief of Staff

[dvlax40]

I always liked it when a wing CC or higher wore ABUs to show that they represented all of us, not just the other bag wearers.

Why always the hate on the bag? If youre comfortable with your job what should it matter. Honestly how many jobs in the af exist because of the bag warers? As long as everyones treated well and the bag wearers dont exploit stuff whats the harm in the distinction

[brabus]

Just think about the poor bastard who has to file all those hurt feelings reports every time a wing/cc wears his flightsuit.

[Majestik Møøse]

I always liked it when a wing CC or higher wore ABUs to show that they represented all of us, not just the other bag wearers.

Huh. That trick actually works? I always figured the ABU wearers found it condescending, like when presidential candidates roll up their sleeves while visiting factories.

[17D_guy]

Wing CC here does both. Wish I could say I was the bigger man and it wouldn't matter if he did or didn't.

But it does.

He wears them with his WIC patch, which caused a nice conversation between us. I'm a grown-ass man, and in some little part it bugs. Imagine all the young Amn and the perception. Sure.. we're here because some of us Airmen wear bags. But the vast majority don't. Where I'm at it's not even the front-end of the jet that the mission really depends on, it's the full back end - most of whom wear ABU's when not flying.

So.. it shouldn't matter. But when you get to that position of authority and trust with your Airmen and lead the whole base, it does.

Edited January 26, 2015 by 17D_guy

[jrufus]

I was surprised to find in some AFSOC squadron's many if not most of the fellas wear ABUs when not flying...in my experience it was the example set by squadron leadership and above. Although, it is mostly to show solidarity with the folks AFSOC supports than with other AF specialties not requiring bags.

[raimius]

Why always the hate on the bag? If youre comfortable with your job what should it matter. Honestly how many jobs in the af exist because of the bag warers? As long as everyones treated well and the bag wearers dont exploit stuff whats the harm in the distinction

Kinda like all the hubbub about camo patterns. Lots of hate and envy when we should be talking about what works and is efficient.

If you work in an office environment, you should probably wear blues (as much as I hate them, due to material and cut).

If you work in the field, you should probably wear an infantry type uniform in effective camo (what the ABU should have been but isn't).

If you work in an industrial environment...probably just wear the infantry type stuff, if it works (keeps logistics easier).

If you fly, wear a flight suit...you know, the thing purpose built for the task!

If you do work in multiple environments, pick what works best.

...besides, pilots don't think they're better than everyone else because of the flight suit. They'd still think they're better, even in a leisure suit. ;)

[sqwatch]

Wing CC here does both. Wish I could say I was the bigger man and it wouldn't matter if he did or didn't.

But it does.

He wears them with his WIC patch, which caused a nice conversation between us. I'm a grown-ass man, and in some little part it bugs.

I'm not sure I'm reading this the right way. Are you saying he shouldn't wear his WIC patch?

[17D_guy]

I'm not sure I'm reading this the right way. Are you saying he shouldn't wear his WIC patch?

Negative. I wasn't aware the WIC patch was authorized on ABU's so I asked about it. I think it's pretty cool it's authorized for ABU's, but looks very out of place being the only patch.

We discussed and both lamented the lack of patches authorized for ABU's. I think if we allowed Sq's to have patches again, that would improve the connection people felt with each other, the uniform and the AF. We did it in BDU's...

And Sq caps need to make a come back.

[JarheadBoom]

Pretty solid for only 3 months on the job to release his vector.

https://www.stripes.com/news/marine-corps/new-top-marine-corps-general-releases-plan-to-shake-up-the-service-1.325463

The new CMC always releases his Commandant's Planning Guidance soon after assuming command.

[Fuzz]

Funny this thing about flyers wearing the bag but I've never heard "I wish that TACP/PJ/CRO/SERE/Security Forces guy wouldn't wear his beret, it makes me feel like he doesn't represent me". Why is the bag the only distinct uniform non-flyers seem to get butt hurt about? If you need a fellow Air Force officer to wear a set of ABUs to make you feel like he represents you then I'm truly sorry your view of your fellow airman have come down to their clothes.

[busdriver]

Dude, poo poo it all you want. It's human nature. Know your audience, dress appropriately.

[BB Stacker]

Funny this thing about flyers wearing the bag but I've never heard "I wish that TACP/PJ/CRO/SERE/Security Forces guy wouldn't wear his beret, it makes me feel like he doesn't represent me". Why is the bag the only distinct uniform non-flyers seem to get butt hurt about? If you need a fellow Air Force officer to wear a set of ABUs to make you feel like he represents you then I'm truly sorry your view of your fellow airman have come down to their clothes.

TACP/PJ/CRO/SERE/Cops aren't regularly put in a position of leadership over a wide variety of AFSCs in the same way as zipper-suits are as WG/CC's and higher. Start making Cop officers WG/CC's and if they chose to regularly wear a beret you'd see a lot of the same bitching.

I don't really care personally, but the sentiment definitely is there and senior leadership ignores it at their own peril.

[SocialD]

As a prior-E, I never once thought twice about my leadership wearing a bag. When I was in the AMXS, my MG/CC was a flyer and he very rarely wore BDUs. The first time I saw him in BDUs, I thought it was weird that he wasn't wearing his bag (since he was still on flying status). He was a great leader and none of us gave a shit what uniform he wore, I had other things to worry about, like my job!

To 17Ds point, I think they need to bring back patches on the ABUs. I think it's a very small thing that goes a long way for our non-flyer force. It's ridiculous that we ever got rid of them.

Edited January 27, 2015 by SocialD

[Majestik Møøse]

As a flyer, I would prefer that ABU wearers had patches so I could tell where they worked. About the only enlisted badges I recognize are MX and ATC.

[Guest]

I kinda-sorta understand this whole discussion, but it really seems like some whiny bitches trying to make something out of nothing.

Why is the bag the only distinct uniform non-flyers seem to get butt hurt about?

For my experiences personally, butthurt is too strong a word. As medical, I've only felt bewilderment at certain flight docs that would wear a flight suit despite not flying for several months and not going to fly for several months (usually a medical DNIF, waiver pending). Who are you trying to impress? The patients from the squadron you would fly with but that haven't seen you for months. Why are you wearing something that you cannot use? Nothing is going to happen that will require you to immediately jump in the seat for a scramble alert.

The response I always got was the bag is more comfortable and it required less time to put on in the morning, which just signified laziness to me, but I'm lazy and I'd probably do the same thing if I could.

[HeyWatchThis]

Funny this thing about flyers wearing the bag but I've never heard "I wish that TACP/PJ/CRO/SERE/Security Forces guy wouldn't wear his beret, it makes me feel like he doesn't represent me". Why is the bag the only distinct uniform non-flyers seem to get butt hurt about? If you need a fellow Air Force officer to wear a set of ABUs to make you feel like he represents you then I'm truly sorry your view of your fellow airman have come down to their clothes.

We had an E9 give a newly hired PJ (for a UPT slot) a hard time for wearing his beret. He didn't have any new uniforms yet so he wore his bag with beret and the E9 lost her lunch over it and gave him all kinds of crap. She even went so far as to look up his "pilot trainee" afsc and point out to him that he was "no longer" a PJ AFSC so he wasn't authorized to wear his uniform.

Needless to say when the squadron found out about it business was taken care of.....thankfully

[pawnman]

As a flyer, I would prefer that ABU wearers had patches so I could tell where they worked. About the only enlisted badges I recognize are MX and ATC.

And intel.

[HeloDude]

I kinda-sorta understand this whole discussion, but it really seems like some whiny bitches trying to make something out of nothing.For my experiences personally, butthurt is too strong a word. As medical, I've only felt bewilderment at certain flight docs that would wear a flight suit despite not flying for several months and not going to fly for several months (usually a medical DNIF, waiver pending). Who are you trying to impress? The patients from the squadron you would fly with but that haven't seen you for months. Why are you wearing something that you cannot use? Nothing is going to happen that will require you to immediately jump in the seat for a scramble alert.

The response I always got was the bag is more comfortable and it required less time to put on in the morning, which just signified laziness to me, but I'm lazy and I'd probably do the same thing if I could.

Upset about certain Flight Docs wearing flight suits, but not hearing you say you're upset that medical folks in the Med Group are wearing ABU's (not scrubs/wearing ABU's when the utility uniform is required) when many could easily wear blues. Works both ways...correct me if I'm wrong.

[ViperStud]

And that's the crux of the problem. Most non-rated people who suffer from uniform insecurity focus on one thing - flight suits. Let's not make it about bags, let's make it about wearing the appropriate uniform for your daily duties. I'll wear blues if I'm not going to fly/sim. MX wears ABUs or coveralls. Management and office workers wear blues. Problem solved.

Wait, you don't like that? You want to wear your ABUs while you sit in an air conditioned office from 0730-1630? Copy, it's not about pragmatism or form fitting function. It's about your flightsuit envy. Grow the fvck up and worry about something important, like doing your job.

[Gravedigger]

For those of us in the space ops world, the memories of flightsuits are still fresh. Though I completely supported space folks switching to ABUs, I still miss what was the best "uniform" I've ever worn.

First, the myriad patch options significantly boosted morale; the distinctive unit nametags and morale patches that straddled good order and discipline just make it a fun uniform.

Second, the number of pockets, all in the best locations, is something the ABU will never come close to. Why yes, I do have a pocket just for my coin and chapstick.

Third, white socks.

Fourth, easy access.

Fifth, Velcro straps are ideally suited for the consumption of large meals and large quantities of beverage.

Sixth, the flight cap is a superior cover for wearing shades.

The one down-side of the flightsuit is that the material was specially designed with one way flow properties that allow no heat to escape in the summer, and frigid air/wind to penetrate in the winter.

Basically what I am saying is that people realize just how much better the flightsuit is than their uniform, and that can be tough. But at the end of the day, if you want to wear a flightsuit, do a job that wears flightsuits. If you want to grow a beard and wear Merrells, sign up for special forces. If your uniform is ABUs, STFU and wear your ABUs.

[Guest]

Upset

Again, upset is the wrong word. Bewildered is what I said.

Anyway, plenty techs and docs do wear scrubs (at random bases, not everywhere), but that's more common in Family Health, not flight med. Reason for that is ambulance duty, which gets shifted around constantly at a FM clinic. Scrubs are very common in dental. Blues are retarded and I'll burn all but one set when I get out. Realistically, ABU's are essentially camo colored casual wear, so I think that's appropriate for the office work in a clinic. Call me crazy, I don't care very much about this topic.

Wait, you don't like that? You want to wear your ABUs while you sit in an air conditioned office from 0730-1630? Copy, it's not about pragmatism or form fitting function. It's about your flightsuit envy. Grow the fvck up and worry about something important, like doing your job.

Take it down a notch there, bud. I think you're inflating this to a straw man position.

[Seriously]

Funny this thing about flyers wearing the bag but I've never heard "I wish that TACP/PJ/CRO/SERE/Security Forces guy wouldn't wear his beret, it makes me feel like he doesn't represent me". Why is the bag the only distinct uniform non-flyers seem to get butt hurt about? If you need a fellow Air Force officer to wear a set of ABUs to make you feel like he represents you then I'm truly sorry your view of your fellow airman have come down to their clothes.

That's exactly what happened in the army. Someone was butthurt about Rangers having berets, so they gave everyone a black beret. Naturally, the Rangers then changed theirs to tan.

It's exactly the same shit.

[busdriver]

So sidebar story: wearing ABUs/ Camo two piece things enabled working with the Army ground types, they didn't immediately lump me in with their perceived zipper suited sun god view of the Air Force. It doesn't matter that their perception was wrong, I was a communicator, the only thing that mattered is if I was effectively passing the message to the receiver. If I have to change my approach to passing the correct message to ensure my intended receiver understands correctly, that's what I'll do. It's no different than changing your instructional approach to get through to a student.

You can bitch and moan that the non-ers are pussies or that Army Infantry officers are fucking idiots, but at the end of the day if you could have made things better by changing your approach, who's really at fault for fucking things up?

[BFM this]

I'll wear blues if I'm not going to fly/sim.

Uhhhm, no. No you would not. We proved that during the last CSAF era (double down SEPTS in the sim for all my friends on Mondays!

I agree with you in principle, but in practice...at least pretend to be intellectually honest.

Grow the fvck up and worry about something important, like doing your job.

That's the root of the problem. Whether it's patches or hats or ABUs or bags, we're bitching about some really trivial shit. (Have to implicate myself, I bitched about and/or notched blues mondays with the rest).

[ViperStud]

DD - first, please don't mistake my sarcasm for true anger. Second, never tone down sarcasm - it breeds weakness. I get it, I had a tone. That was on purpose.

Should I have to wear blues when not on the schedule? Hell no. But I bring it up as an example of having some logic (not flight suit envy) dictate UOD. I have to wear a bag most days. Do office workers have to wear ABUs? Either apply some type of objective criteria across the board or shut up and color. Insecurity and hurt feelings are poor foundations upon which to build policy.

Culture and leadership are the two main reasons I separated. Chalk this up to a sub- bullet under culture. I don't bitch about berets, badges/tabs, cords, weapons that I am not authorized to wear. I chose my path and live within the confines of that path. This is the military (not Boy Scouts) and we cannot/should not cater to insecurities. I get why senior leaders may mix up uniforms and there is a reason for it that logic does not apply to the masses.

Want a beret? Finance isn't for you. Want a gun? Be a sky cop. I went through a longer schoolhouse than most other career fields go through. Want to wear a bag? Earn it. When I was at Vance, we had 1COs that had wings made. Didn't wear them obviously, but had them sitting on their desks. Full-up radiator badges. How does that look to the dude that washes out in phase 3? Out-processing and seeing some 1CO with the wings you couldn't earn on her desk. Or how about the grads? You work your balls off for a year to earn something and see that?

Sure, that's a little dramatic. I get it. My point remains - if you want something then earn it. If you aren't willing to walk the walk, then why should we take away something from those that do, just to level the playing field? It's another example of the PC everyone gets a trophy mindset that is weakening our culture.