Gen Welsh - USAF Chief of Staff

[Gravedigger]

Yes the job is fun, and we all want to be true blue patriot heroes, but you can only look outside and see how much better everyone else has it until you understand that you are completely fucked in the name of fairness.

What a bunch of fucking whiners. You're so poor, your life is so difficult, airlines are so much better...GTFO.

Aircrew does get paid more. When you consider the tax advantages, incentive pays, and retention bonuses it's significantly more. Maybe the issue isn't pay at all, maybe you're entitled and forgot the point of military service. Clue, it wasn't to get rich.

I've served with officers and enlisted from each service and many career fields, and I've never heard as much complaining as I do from AF pilots. Are your lives that much shittier than everyone else's? Or are you just that much more entitled?

[BCan]

Lighten up Francis.

Yes, some people have a skill set that should entitle them to more money.

I'm of the opinion that if an airline captain makes 250K / yr...then any combat related pilot job with all the quals/seniority should make at least 500K.

Supply and demand, or something...read it in a book once.

[ViperStud]

What a bunch of ######ing whiners. You're so poor, your life is so difficult, airlines are so much better...GTFO.

Aircrew does get paid more. When you consider the tax advantages, incentive pays, and retention bonuses it's significantly more. Maybe the issue isn't pay at all, maybe you're entitled and forgot the point of military service. Clue, it wasn't to get rich.

I've served with officers and enlisted from each service and many career fields, and I've never heard as much complaining as I do from AF pilots. Are your lives that much shittier than everyone else's? Or are you just that much more entitled?

Wake up, bro. It's not just about money, it's about QOL, working for an organization you're proud of and (yes) compensation. QOL - I serve in the RC doing the same job as on AD. I also have a stable location near family, leadership that ensures 12-hour days are not standard, a wife able to pursue a career without the threat of moving and control over when/where/if I deploy. The AD needs to compete with (or compensate for lack thereof) this option.

I serve for the same big picture company, but there are two distinct differences. First, leadership is better. Some of it trickles down to the ANG but that if it gets way worse (similar to AD) that brings me to point number two: options. On the bonus in AD I'm screwed; here I have options.

Money: like it or not we are not all equal. Even moreso, Some younger pups are far more productive that the below average dude that is 5 years older - which is why the Sec Def is looking into some changes. The business world is not handcuffed by time-in-grade and compensation limits, which provides a situation with more open competition for money, leadership and promotion than we currently have. My BIL is SF (same age too) and we got to talking about this subject. He basically admitted that he only common jobs on the outside that make the same money right away for him would involve personal security in the Middle East, minus the pension plan of AD with more time away. Sorry, but I have more options. People can bitch all they want about aircrew (or legal, docs entering late, and eventually cyber) making more, but the AF needs to compensate for the fact that I have more options on the outside. In my case, the bonus (as big as it is) was not enough. A lot of people agree with me - I dont think it has influenced anyone to stay that wasn't already doing so. The SF dude doesn't need a bonus because his options aren't the same. Life isn't fair, it's real. If you want options, develop a skillset or experience that opens them up for you. Don't just sit back and bitch about others that have the work ethic to set themselves up in a better place.

[di1630]

What a bunch of fucking whiners.

I prefer "sport bitcher". Whining is what a support weenie shoeclerk does when they can't beat the 1630 (that's 4:30 pm to you) traffic out the front gate.

[Cap-10]

I prefer "sport bitcher". Whining is what a support weenie shoeclerk does when they can't beat the 1630 (that's 4:30 pm to you) traffic out the front gate.

The Shoe Clerk 500 race.

[Gravedigger]

Money: like it or not we are not all equal. Even moreso, Some younger pups are far more productive that the below average dude that is 5 years older - which is why the Sec Def is looking into some changes. The business world is not handcuffed by time-in-grade and compensation limits, which provides a situation with more open competition for money, leadership and promotion than we currently have.

You are entitled to whatever the marketplace dictates you are entitled to. AF pilots are entitled to more than what the military has to offer, so people are leaving in droves. Have fun with whatever is left behind.

Also, dude, you don't get to preach about service to people pulling an 11-year obligation at the bare minimum.

I agree that we should not be handcuffed by time-in-grade restrictions and the current promotion structure we have now (across all AFSCs), but I also don't think pilots have nearly the irreplaceable value as is being claimed in this thread. There will always be people willing to take what the DoD provides, because they are excited by the mission and called to serve. I have worked with plenty of AF pilots that feel they are very well compensated for what they do. I think we will be just fine with what's "left behind." Sure there will be fewer pilots in staff jobs, and smaller staffs in general, so what.

When I was in Afghanistan, I preferred to fly with civilian and Army crews to get around the country, because there was a lot more flexibility and a lot less bitching involved. You don't think the other services' aviators have just as much "value" on the outside? Why do I only ever hear about how pilots aren't being appreciated/paid enough in the Air Force? A service that is entirely run by, and completely focused on pilots. I've worked with enough happy pilots to know that Baseops doesn't represent the entire community, but Jesus, this whining is something else.

There is not a single enlisted Airman in space operations that makes more money in the Air Force than they could on the outside, and most officers below the rank of Major are the same way. Why do people stay? There are a lot of reasons; for one, the missions inside the Air Force are more exciting than those outside the Air Force. Operating DirecTV satellites or commercial SATCOM is boring for most people. That should be the case for most pilots as well; I'm sorry that it's not.

I prefer "sport bitcher". Whining is what a support weenie shoeclerk does when they can't beat the 1630 (that's 4:30 pm to you) traffic out the front gate.

LOL, pilots are the only ones that work 12+ hour shifts 24/7/365, right. It's ok, you don't need to know what other AFSCs do, we'll just be over here accomplishing the mission quietly, professionally, and for less money than you.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Gravedigger

[ThreeHoler]

Stuff

He’s run this town since time begun

Like a barrel to the head from a loaded gun

He ain’t your friend and he ain’t your foe

But take heed now, don’t fuck with joe

[di1630]

LOL, pilots are the only ones that work 12+ hour shifts 24/7/365, right. It's ok, you don't need to know what other AFSCs do, we'll just be over here accomplishing the mission quietly, professionally, and for less money than you.

LOL, the reason many support AFSCs need "shifts" is to define their work hours otherwise they'd only work approx 69 minutes a day, most of that on facebook or drinking coffee.

Edited April 7, 2015 by di1630

[Gravedigger]

LOL, the reason many support AFSCs need "shifts" is to define their work hours otherwise they'd only work approx 69 minutes a day, most of that on facebook or drinking coffee.

LOL, the reason many "support" AFSCs (11X) need ATOs/Vul/ToT/SOF Desk is to define their work hours otherwise they'd only work approx 69 minutes a day, most of that bitching and posting on BODN.

You keep saying support, as if you aren't aware there are many other OGs and ops squadrons in the Air Force that don't involve aircraft. We don't need to get into a supporting vs. supported debate here, but depending on the mission, air supports ground/sea, ground/sea supports air, space supports air/ground/sea, air/ground/sea support space, cyber supports air/ground/sea/space, air/ground/sea/space support cyber...you get the point. Air is one operational domain. It is the primary domain of Air Force operations, but not the only domain. An F-16 taking out a GPS jamming site is supporting air/ground/space domains simultaneously. A GPS operator is supporting all domains as well. At some level, everyone is supporting someone else. I think that is a concept that is often lost, and leads to the pervasive "it's all about me" attitude in the Air Force.

[goingkinetic]

Gravedigger, didn't you wash out of pilot training?

[Gravedigger]

Ironically enough, my wife and I decided the QoL wasn't going to be right for us as pilots, so we reclassed into jobs that were better suited for join-spouse/families. It was a tough decision, but the years have proven it was the right one.

[di1630]

An F-16 taking out a GPS jamming site is supporting....

LOL x69....an F-16 pilot in this scenario is helping the supporting agency (space) to support the pilot appropriately.

Essentially the F-16 pilot is supporting himself, a skill perfected having done many support jobs himself during the non-combat workweek because the supporting agency was at PT, closed for training, on a 2 hr lunch break, outside the Std work hours of 0930-1530 (again 3:30 pm for you)

C'mon Gravedigger, I'm just having fun. I appreciate the support weenies (mostly) and have a healthy respect for their work (usually), and I admittedly love to sport bitch (commonly misunderstood as whining).

Do you think I really believe I'm under appreciated, under paid and more valuable than EVERY other AFSC? Of course not, is what I'd say if I were lying to make you feel better about yourself and your subpar I feel sorry for you AFSC compared to my pilot Godliness.

[deaddebate]

Fuck it, I'll say what everyone here thinks but can't acknowledge in real life. All jobs are not created equal. A 13-year O-4 FSS officer with a perfect record is not worth as much as the 13-year O-4 instructor/evaluator aircrew, period dot, full stop. But we pay them the same. We promote them at the same rates for O-4 (not sure about O-5). Only at the higher echelons does the split happen, but not before. That FSS officer could be the most incredible leader in the history of leadership, school grad, volunteers for every little brown nosing event, does all the big blue crap, and they STILL won't be as valuable as the #15/20 fighter pilot with similar time in service who has none of those credentials. I can't take a rock star FSS officer and drop him in a CAOC to run a fucking air war, now can I? It's not just pilots, I'm talking anyone involved who has specialized experience that is essential to running or maintaining wartime capability.

But we pay these two people the same. And pilots are starting to realize that they are grossly undervalued by the government, so they GTFO. Yes, the bonus and flight pay are a factor, but the combination of QoL+compensation simply doesn't measure up to the alternative. TOTAL compensation of the entire military is killing our budget, but we have a shortfall of people we need to maintain proper combat capability. That tells me that the problem isn't that we're paying our guys too much. It's that we're paying the wrong people too damn much, and the right people not enough. Yes the job is fun, and we all want to be true blue patriot heroes, but you can only look outside and see how much better everyone else has it until you understand that you are completely fucked in the name of fairness.

I know none of this will ever actually happen in real life, but in my eyes, we need to figure out who the hell we absolutely need in a war, and work our way backwards, and then whoever needs to get the boot will be very apparent that point.

Uh, my point wasn't that Officers/Flyers/AFSC X earn more or less than Enlisted/Nonners/AFSC Y. I was saying Gen Welsh's claim of an "increase" of 40% over 12 years is wrong (it's over 15 years), fails to consider the paradigm-shifts of 9/11, and merely matches inflation. This repeated falsehood should be identified and ridiculed whenever presented. I just pulled data for TSgt and Major because it seemed like a good sampling and easily relatable to folks. If everybody is leaping to the "Flyers deserve X" and "DOD benefits are socialist-based," then I guess my post wasn't well-written to explain my opinion.

[BCan]

Ironically enough, my wife and I decided the QoL wasn't going to be right for us as pilots, so we reclassed into jobs that were better suited for join-spouse/families. It was a tough decision, but the years have proven it was the right one.

Ironically? So you couldn't hack it...puss'd out...and now you call us "a bunch of ing whiners." The irony indeed.

[Champ Kind]

What a bunch of fucking whiners. You're so poor, your life is so difficult, airlines are so much better...GTFO.

decided the QoL wasn't going to be right for us as pilots, so we reclassed into jobs that were better suited for join-spouse/families.

Really dude?

[Boomer6]

Ironically? So you couldn't hack it...puss'd out...and now you call us "a bunch of ######ing whiners." The irony indeed.

Shack.

[Gravedigger]

Ironically? So you couldn't hack it...puss'd out...and now you call us "a bunch of fucking whiners." The irony indeed.

Couldn't hack it? Puss'd out? GMAFB. I have not complained about my decision to leave UPT, ever. I asked my leadership for advice and guidance, and the consensus was that "making it work" between two married pilots that are not in the same year group or airframe is incredibly difficult. While people do it successfully, it frequently ends badly. Flying in the Air Force wasn't that important to me, it was more important to me to serve as an officer first and be stationed with my wife. I was fortunate in that I was assigned to a career field that I find very rewarding, but had I not been, it would have been because I chose to leave UPT, and that was a pill I was willing to swallow.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with pilots (or anyone else) deciding to get out of the Air Force. I have never said I had anything against pilots choosing to leave; and I hope those that do find a better life in another career. What I am trying to convey is that AF pilots are some of the best paid and best taken care of service members in the entire DoD, so the complaining seems a lot like Saudi princes at UPT complaining about having to park their M3s with the rest of the studs, whereas in Saudi Arabia, they drive a Maserati, and they get to park wherever they want.

I hope that BODN represents the vocal minority on this issue and these discussions don't happen in front of the maintainers or AFE folks you guys work with.

We are clearly not going to find common ground here, so we'll just have to go with I'm right on this one, trust me.

[JarheadBoom]

We are clearly not going to find common ground here, so we'll just have to go with I'm right on this one, trust me.

When you find yourself in a hole, STOP FUCKING DIGGING.

Technique only.

[ElLoco]

Copy, could not hack UPT, punched out under guise of marital stress.

[brewskis]

Couldn't hack it? Puss'd out? GMAFB. I have not complained about my decision to leave UPT, ever. I asked my leadership for advice and guidance, and the consensus was that "making it work" between two married pilots that are not in the same year group or airframe is incredibly difficult. While people do it successfully, it frequently ends badly. Flying in the Air Force wasn't that important to me, it was more important to me to serve as an officer first and be stationed with my wife. I was fortunate in that I was assigned to a career field that I find very rewarding, but had I not been, it would have been because I chose to leave UPT, and that was a pill I was willing to swallow.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with pilots (or anyone else) deciding to get out of the Air Force. I have never said I had anything against pilots choosing to leave; and I hope those that do find a better life in another career. What I am trying to convey is that AF pilots are some of the best paid and best taken care of service members in the entire DoD, so the complaining seems a lot like Saudi princes at UPT complaining about having to park their M3s with the rest of the studs, whereas in Saudi Arabia, they drive a Maserati, and they get to park wherever they want.

I hope that BODN represents the vocal minority on this issue and these discussions don't happen in front of the maintainers or AFE folks you guys work with.

We are clearly not going to find common ground here, so we'll just have to go with I'm right on this one, trust me.

I'm not necessarily going for a pile on here, but whether you like it or not, support types have a stigma. At my base, when I roll in at 0600-0630, the MSG, Med Group and other support units have completely empty parking lots. When I leave at 1800-1830, those parking lots are also empty. Our Finance shop closes up at 1630, regardless if you are waiting in line or not. We have no flight docs on duty after 1630 usually. We asked if a doc would come in if we had a in flight physi after 1630, and were told to basically pound sand.

I'm not accusing you of being one of those 'types' and the fact that you visit this forum makes me think you aren't. But there are more bad examples than good ones these days, at least in my world. The primary mission of my base is flying training. Yet, the support squadrons are far better manned than the ops squadrons right now, but there seems to be zero desire in the support units to help us either accomplish the primary mission of our wing or assist those that do. I wound venture to guess my example isn't unique or special, either.

[ViperStud]

The AF is a comfortable place for those mediocre types that don't have the skills or work ethic to succeed in truly competitive workplaces - you know, the types that punch out of difficult training.

Those (you) are not the one with the options I was talking about on the outside. Enjoy your time-based promotions and keep scoffing those who finished what you couldn't. You fit right in.

[17D_guy]

Amn (Pilot) exits USAF due to QOL concerns - ball slathering, high-fives with drinks and bro-fists

Amn (non-Pilot) exits UPT due to QOL concerns - non-hack homo who couldn't cut it in any AFSC/Service

Did I get it right?

If I have to listen to another Ops person tell me about how hard they work, and how soft us "support" types are and how easy we have it with our "8 hour" days I might actually flick my eyes in a circular direction. Yea, you work 18 hr days, every day (I've been told this). No time in the Sq bar, ever. No naming ceremonies. No change of command parties. No sweet deal TDY's to air shows at Hurlburt or Pensacola or.. you know.. flying in a god damn magical steel tube that weighs thousands of pounds.

Meanwhile. I send my Amn taskers about getting some Bullet Background Papers for the new Wing King, figure out how to explain to Ops types the newest cyber-directive that's come down to stop the stupid things they were doing. Another rape. Another DUI. Another Amn who's... probably going to be an active shooter. Data call on hours spent responding to data calls. Ops would like 15 tablets set up in 2 days for <insert DV visit here>.

Does anyone here think Missilers had it soft and were a bunch of pussy crybabies?

The jobs are different, they require different skills, mindsets and abilities. Just because you don't value it, doesn't mean it's not of value.

Like I said in my other post, I'm in deep w/ the Ops Group at my base because that's the mission. I execute the mission I'm given - making sure you fly, fly well, and more importantly - land well.

But don't fucking tell me, or GraveDigger, you don't have just as many fuckup, non-hack, wastes of space who contribute 0 to the mission as the MSG side. Don't tell me IFS, UPT, IQT and MQT didn't let some through just because they were on the line and the paperwork to kick them was just a little too difficult to do that day. Don't tell me you have a co-pilot that worries you, or a bag-wearing exec that constantly fucks up your paperwork, or schedulers that'll screw you.

In fact, I would argue your pieces of shit are of even greater detriment since peoples lives are on the line. You have your guys that don't show up for days in a row, don't train, do unsafe shit, etc. One of my guys fucks up - no NIPR. One of your guys fucks up - lifetime benefits to some widows and kids with a folded flag to display.

Don't tell me the MSG is full of slacker Amn who don't show up until 8, give poor service (because they enjoy pissing people off), and cut out early for "training days" just to make the CAF/MAF dudes pissed. I had to go to down Fridays in the CFP where I'm at. Why? We needed the time for training. Not CBT's, not SABC, fucking skill training. Because the AF separated all the experience (VSP/RIF/PT).

Sounds like I'm writing about the same things you guys bitch about with the full-qual IP's getting bounced and keeping the party planner, doesn't it.

Most of you fly. Super cool gig! It's awesome. I still run to the window to watch the flight-line. But don't tell me we're not working hard to get that magical vehicle floating, holding up the worst piece of shit you can find while you compare them to the Patch-wearing full-up IP.

Edited April 8, 2015 by 17D_guy

[HeloDude]

I think we have emotionally upset the 'everyone should get a trophy' crowd...

[Azimuth]

There's a reason why they're called the Mission Supression Group.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

Amn (Pilot) exits USAF due to QOL concerns - ball slathering, high-fives with drinks and bro-fists

Amn (non-Pilot) exits UPT due to QOL concerns - non-hack homo who couldn't cut it in any AFSC/Service

Did I get it right?

Nope. Big difference between someone who finished what they started, did their time, earned their keep, and decided to seek opportunities elsewhere and someone who couldn't hack shit in the first place.

As for the rest of your words.... noted, with points of agreement. Shit sucks everywhere, got it. The problem is this culture the Air Force has actively been promoting in the recent past that has fed the line of horseshit that every AFSC is created equal, that we're all warfighters, and are all the tip of the spear.

As for your gripes about having to close for training and other blah blah ballwash-- there's one key difference between pilots and most other AFSCs. Our primary job lately hasn't been to fly airplanes. That is pretty much a hobby or some kind of guilty pleasure that we occasionally get to partake in, usually at the expense of our ability to do our real jobs. And when I say "real jobs" I am referring, of course, to EVERYONE ELSE'S DAMN JOB. We have more finance officers by trade in our flying squadron than the comptroller squadron. More comm guys than the comm squadron, more personnellists... you get the point. When a support type goes to work, they do the job they were hired and trained for (somewhere between showing up at ~0800, Sq PT, 2 hour lunch, and 1615 departure). 90% of the reason I and most of my colleagues work 12+ hours on a regular basis is because of all of the other ancillary bullshit we have to do because "support" AFSCs can't do their job.