Reservist Earns Airman’s Medal

[LJDRVR]

We all like to think we'd go back to the burning jet three times to carry people out and check for survivors, leaving ten seconds before the CFT explodes. But Rich actually did it. Nice work!

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2010/12/airforce-reservist-earns-airmans-medal-121010w/

[busdriver]

Job well done sir

[M2]

This is not a "single mission civilian air medal". He was awarded the Airmans Medal. Either way, he definitely deserves it.

I changed the title to more accurately reflect that!

to Rich Lowe!

[LJDRVR]

Thanks, Max - didn't mean to water it down.

[M2]

No biggie, and just saw on the local news that he's from this area...a 1984 graduate of Comfort High School, less than an hour from San Antonio, and his wife went to school here in town!

Here's their version of the story:

S.A. pilot awarded Air Medal for heroics in Denver crash

Cheers! M2

[contraildash]

That takes some balls!

Safety report HERE.

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

On December 20, 2008, about 1818 mountain standard time, Continental Airlines flight 1404, a Boeing 737-500, N18611, departed the left side of runway 34R during takeoff from Denver International Airport (DEN), Denver, Colorado. A postcrash fire ensued. The captain and 5 of the 110 passengers were seriously injured; the first officer, 2 cabin crewmembers, and 38 passengers received minor injuries; and 1 cabin crewmember and 67 passengers (3 of whom were lap-held children) were uninjured. The airplane was substantially damaged. The scheduled, domestic passenger flight, operated under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 121, was departing DEN and was destined for George Bush Intercontinental Airport, Houston, Texas. At the time of the accident, visual meteorological conditions prevailed, with strong and gusty winds out of the west. The flight operated on an instrument flight rules flight plan.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the captain’s cessation of rudder input, which was needed to maintain directional control of the airplane, about 4 seconds before the excursion, when the airplane encountered a strong and gusty crosswind that exceeded the captain’s training and experience.

Contributing to the accident were the following factors: 1) an air traffic control system that did not require or facilitate the dissemination of key, available wind information to the air traffic controllers and pilots; and 2) inadequate crosswind training in the airline industry due to deficient simulator wind gust modeling.

The safety issues discussed in this report include the pilots’ actions, training, and experience; air traffic controllers’ obtaining and disseminating wind information; runway selection and use; crosswind training; simulator modeling; crosswind guidelines and limitations; certification and inspection of crew seats; and galley latches.

Edited December 11, 2010 by contraildash

[Murph]

Now that is a legit medal. Well done.

[Guest]

The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the captain’s cessation of rudder input, which was needed to maintain directional control of the airplane, about 4 seconds before the excursion, when the airplane encountered a strong and gusty crosswind that exceeded the captain’s training and experience.

Wait, what? He was the captain and he didn't have the required training and experience to fly the plane?

Rich should have been flying the fucking thing instead of sitting back in coach.

[osulax05]

Wait, what? He was the captain and he didn't have the required training and experience to fly the plane?

Rich should have been flying the fucking thing instead of sitting back in coach.

Hopefully this refers to some sort of PWC-type restrictions the airline has.

Either way, outstanding work!

[Bayou_Eagle_Driver]

It's nice to see well-deserved awards are still getting to the right people!

[Toro]

Well done, sir. And...

Lowe went back into the plane again, where he found that flight attendant crying on the floor. Her leg was broken, but she had fought through the pain until she had evacuated her passengers. Lowe carried her off the plane before going back into the aircraft a third time.

Kudos to her as well.

[Learjetter]

Wait, what? He was the captain and he didn't have the required training and experience to fly the plane?

Likely, the union will say: "because the crosswind scenario we practice in the sim is only x knots, and the aircraft experienced z knots, the pilot's training program was deficient." Standard.

[Guest]

Kudos to her as well.

See...the hostitutes are good for more than handing out peanuts and, well, you know.

[Danny Noonin]

Likely, the union will say: "because the crosswind scenario we practice in the sim is only x knots, and the aircraft experienced z knots, the pilot's training program was deficient." Standard.

And they would be correct. I'm guessing you have no idea what an airline training program consists of. Let me describe an average major airline's program for you:

Systems training is done by sending a CD to the dude's house, telling him to go through it on his own time for zero pay, and then giving him a computer based test on it.

Training is about 4 weeks: 2 weeks of cockpit trainers, then 4 sims and a checkride, then 4 more sims and a checkride. Each sim period is 4 hours long and 2 dudes are getting trained, so he only gets 1/2 the time on the controls. So somewhere in the 16 hours of actual time on the controls there are before you he gets type rated as a PIC, he needs to cover just a few things apart from giant gusts of wind that might hit at 130 knots on takeoff roll. So maybe, just maybe, they might not actually have been too proficient at that.

A dude's first time in the actual airplane is with a bus load of passengers in the back. There are no practice flights.

Once a year recurrent training consists of a systems exam and 2 sims.

Other than that, dude, there is no training. None. Zip. It's all fly the flight plan, maximize auto pilot, nothing ever goes wrong except the weather and delays, kind of flying. Hardly the kind that challenges or develops skill sets.

Maybe I'm reading your post wrong, but it looks like you're taking a cheap shot at the unions as if it's bullshit they are trying to shield someone. When in reality, the FAA got bought off by the airline lobbyists and once robust training programs have been watered down to the point that they are barely good enough to get you from point A to point B, let alone deal with serious problems.

Or so I've heard.

[Guest]

Systems training is done by sending a CD to the dude's house, telling him to go through it on his own time for zero pay, and then giving him a computer based test on it.

The shrill cry of the A-word pilot...how much am I getting paid for this?

So maybe, just maybe, they might not actually have been too proficient at that.

however, they are qualified pilots, right? You know, the kind that know how to counteract wind with flight control inputs?

A dude's first time in the actual airplane is with a bus load of passengers in the back. There are no practice flights.

Remainds me of the way the USAF has trained thousands of pilots.

Other than that, dude, there is no training. None. Zip. It's all fly the flight plan, maximize auto pilot, nothing ever goes wrong except the weather and delays, kind of flying. Hardly the kind that challenges or develops skill sets.

Wow, sounds like a great job.

Maybe I'm reading your post wrong, but it looks like you're taking a cheap shot at the unions as if it's bullshit they are trying to shield someone.

Are you saying the unions/pilots want more training? All the A-word guys I know absolutely HATE training and avoid it (and anything else they can avoid) by BFMing the rules like their lives depended on it.

Or so I've heard.

[Danny Noonin]

I'm not making excuses for anyone or absolving anyone of the responsibility to get the j-o-b done no matter what.

I'm just saying that, by military standards, modern day a-word training absolutely sucks. Shockingly so. To claim that anyone is "proficient" at the end of a crash course is a joke. Dudes can get from point A to point B just fine. But throw in some no-notice life and death curveballs and now we're all just taking our chances, because there may not be a solid foundation underneath it all.

[Learjetter]

I'm not making excuses for anyone or absolving anyone of the responsibility to get the j-o-b done no matter what.

I'm just saying that, by military standards, modern day a-word training absolutely sucks. Shockingly so. To claim that anyone is "proficient" at the end of a crash course is a joke. Dudes can get from point A to point B just fine. But throw in some no-notice life and death curveballs and now we're all just taking our chances, because there may not be a solid foundation underneath it all.

Sounds like a really good reason to do everything in your power to be the best professional pilot one can be...

[Buddy Spike]

I'm not making excuses for anyone or absolving anyone of the responsibility to get the j-o-b done no matter what.

I'm just saying that, by military standards, modern day a-word training absolutely sucks. Shockingly so. To claim that anyone is "proficient" at the end of a crash course is a joke. Dudes can get from point A to point B just fine. But throw in some no-notice life and death curveballs and now we're all just taking our chances, because there may not be a solid foundation underneath it all.

Crosswinds are no-notice life and death curveballs?

[Guest]

Sounds like a really good reason to do everything in your power to be the best professional pilot one can be...

Yep, he was probably using his iPod or some unprofessional shit like that.

I don't give a shit if the pilots are "professional" since I have no idea what the means but it smells like power point slides PT tests and filled squares.

I just want them to be good pilots who don't crash the fucking plane.

[Fud]

Yep, he was probably using his iPod or some unprofessional shit like that.

I don't give a shit if the pilots are "professional" since I have no idea what the means but it smells like power point slides PT tests and filled squares.

I just want them to be good pilots who don't crash the fucking plane.

2

Break

Back to the topic at hand though. I'm curious why it took them so damn long to award this guy a medal. I understand the staffing process, and how long that takes at the wing level, but I'm sure this had to go much higher right? Or did the recipient just never really let anyone know since he was a humble dude (which the article said)?

[Danny Noonin]

Crosswinds are no-notice life and death curveballs?

Well in this case, they pretty much were, weren't they?

37 knot crosswind gust, with max book limit of 33. Airplane had winglets too, with max manufacturer demonstrated limit of 22.

Again, not making excuses for anyone. The causal factor in this accident report is pilot error. Period dot.

My whole point is that anyone who entered the major airline world in the last 8 years or so has undergone significantly reduced training flying airliners than anyone who entered the industry before that. The airlines pitch to the FAA was that they didn't need such extensive (translation: expensive) training for newbies because they would be under the supervision of more experienced captains for years and could gain their seasoning that way. But put it this way: On your next airline flight, the crew up front very well might consist of a F.O. who has maybe 10 flights in any heavy airplane in his life sitting next to a captain who has overall experience, but only 5 flights in that type of aircraft. Perfectly legal and I've seen it happen, but it's hardly Chesley and Jeff. So when shit goes south, who are you going to blame? The pilots of course, and I'm not saying that's wrong. But in my opinion, its a high risk setup that the FAA and the industry have come up with and we're lucky it hasn't bitten us badly yet.

[Buddy Spike]

Well in this case, they pretty much were, weren't they?

37 knot crosswind gust, with max book limit of 33. Airplane had winglets too, with max manufacturer demonstrated limit of 22.

So if the winds were out of limits, why did they even attempt a takeoff? Is this some kind of goofy airline thing where even if the winds are out of the limits of the jet (and captain, in this case), they try it anyway?

[Danny Noonin]

So if the winds were out of limits, why did they even attempt a takeoff? Is this some kind of goofy airline thing where even if the winds are out of the limits of the jet (and captain, in this case), they try it anyway?

Dude, GMAFB. It was a gust. That doesn't mean the winds were being called out of limits when they were cleared for takeoff.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Danny Noonin

[Danny Noonin]

Sorry for the thread drift. I take the heat for that.

Back to your regularly scheduled program.

[amcflyboy]

KDEN has A LOT of runways. They have runways that run North/South, and runways that run East/West. If the winds were out of the west, why didn't he request a Westward runway? It is up to the PIC to "safely" operate the aircraft too.

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