Revenge of the MX officer

[Hacker]

The big problem is that each side thinks they're right, and refuses to go learn what the issues are for the other side. I'm a former MX officer turned pilot, and I've heard metric shit-tons of ignorant, biased bullshit about the other side equally from both sides. Nobody has the high ground here -- both ops and maintenance are equally guilty of idiotic focuses on what matters to them and ignorance about what matters to the other side.

Ops and maintenance are a co-dependent relationship. Before chucking spears, go walk a mile in their PT gear and figure out what matters to them, and then try and make that important to you, too. Without that understanding, both sides will continue to chuck spears from behind their well-defended biased positions, and we'll be in the same gridlock we've been in since the Army Air Corps.

BTW, MX working for Ops at the squadron level is NOT the end-all panacea that many think it is. If it were up to me, there would still be a DCM O-6 who ran maintenance, was experienced as a maintainer, and could bash it out with the OG/CC at the weekly ops/mx meeting.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Hacker

[Prosuper]

BTW, MX working for Ops at the squadron level is NOT the end-all panacea that many think it is. If it were up to me, there would still be a DCM O-6 who ran maintenance, was experienced as a maintainer, and could bash it out with the OG/CC at the weekly ops/mx meeting.

Amen!!

[Guest Hueypilot812]

I don't want to start a pissing contest but the mx world is totally different than from your world, you guys would not even think of flying without every crew position filled but in mx we might have only one 7-level to cover 20 jets.

No pissing contest, just FYSA. In most situations, flying minus a crew position is either impossible or severely impacts the mission. For example, in the C-130J, there's only two pilots and a loadmaster. Leave a pilot behind? I guess...maybe the left seater can reach all the way across the center console to raise the gear. It's possible, but why do it? Since airdrop is our bread and butter, not having those other two people makes getting the mission done next to impossible without bending metal.

That being said, in the E/H model Herks we left the Navs behind fairly often if it was a local non-tac sortie.

[BQZip01]

I think it's a piss-poor video relying completely on exaggerated stereotypes (idiot flyer + maintenance blaming everything on something else). While some of the points are certainly true, anyone who has flown a few years know that the guys on the line are generally doing the best they can, but are also not being given enough support to get the job done properly. Add to the fact that we have aircraft that are, on average 10 years OLDER than the people that maintain them, we are going to need better planes. Our Air Force is a testament to "penny wise, pound foolish".

I'll work from what I know: The B-52's engines could use an upgrade to make them VASTLY more fuel efficient, drastically increasing range and capability, and saving millions of dollars. We won't invest the money this year (or any other year) because it would cost too much up front. Hell, we could do some modifications to the C-17 and create an unarmed bomb truck and get a replacement PDQ. However, we won't do that for any of a number of political reasons...so to save money, let's fire a few maintainers and aviators. That way we have more money for spare parts!

...what do you mean we don't have enough people to fly and maintain the jets?

[check6]

maybe those jets could get fixed if you were out there working on them instead of making youtube videos

[MechGov]

I think it's a piss-poor video relying completely on exaggerated stereotypes (idiot flyer + maintenance blaming everything on something else). While some of the points are certainly true, anyone who has flown a few years know that the guys on the line are generally doing the best they can, but are also not being given enough support to get the job done properly. Add to the fact that we have aircraft that are, on average 10 years OLDER than the people that maintain them, we are going to need better planes. Our Air Force is a testament to "penny wise, pound foolish".

Stereotyping? Sure. I think the video gets across certain points. As a young flyer, I have no real grasp about what it takes to get my aircraft FMC. So I have no idea why there never seems to be spare parts for my 45+ year old airplane, and why there is never a spare despite dozens (or a hundred) sitting on the ramp without engines turning. Yeah, I know the guys working the line are busting their ass in shitty weather, and I give them credit...I doubt those guys are the limfac.

It's frustrating being limited in our ability to execute the mission. So, for me, this video really addresses that there isn't a productive dialogue between the Ops/MX (even shoe clerk) world on why the mission is getting hamstrung for lack of spares, parts, and goddamn vouchers.

[uhhello]

It's ignorance on both sides as others have said. It took me a good 8 years as a maintainer to find out why crews would hop out of perfectly working airplanes and kick someone else out of theirs. There are a bunch of other things that routinely piss maintenance dudes off but when you look into it or someone takes 5 seconds to explain it, it makes perfect sense. I remember seeing an E model squadron scheduling board for the first time and about shitting my pants. Its a simple fix but it will never happen.

[Herk Driver]

if not we haven't been under OP's since the early 90's.

Really? You like broad brush statements, huh?

Edited January 7, 2011 by Herk Driver

[Guest]

The big problem is that each side thinks they're right, and refuses to go learn what the issues are for the other side.

Ops and maintenance are a co-dependent relationship.

It is as simple as that.

So is the solution.

[zrooster99]

maybe those jets could get fixed if you were out there working on them instead of making youtube videos

Clever.

Enlisted Flyers and that the Officer Flyers are in charge of them. Not every flying squadron is made up of only Pilots.

Not the same.

if not we haven't been under OP's since the early 90's.

I worked in MX under ops from 2000-2002...I think '02 is when the system officially changed...at leaste in ACC.

BTW, MX working for Ops at the squadron level is NOT the end-all panacea that many think it is.

Checks. Each system has/had it's advantages and disadvantages.

[Prosuper]

I worked in MX under ops from 2000-2002...I think '02 is when the system officially changed...at leaste in ACC.

OK I did not work under Ops since 1995, and I was in ACC.

[zrooster99]

OK I did not work under Ops since 1995, and I was in ACC

Hmmm, I had assumed that it was true globally. In my case Barksdale definitely had flightline MX under ops until at least July '02.

[BQZip01]

It's frustrating being limited in our ability to execute the mission.

That depends on what your mission is. I know for a fact that "downrange", maintainers will put off needed maintenance to get a combat sortie ready to go. They will cannibalize parts and do other things, but those tactical fixes come at a strategic price. Maintenance is worried about "what happens if we have to go to war tomorrow with everything we've got?" That 100% miscap rate in January could translate into 50% in February & March if they are using the aforementioned techniques to generate sorties. There may be a valid reason to do so, but it needs to be considered at the Wing level (or higher). If you let maintenance have the jets and do the proper maintenance on it, they will tend to provide you with a better airframe in the long run. Yes, "that jet flew yesterday" and was fine, but it needs repairs. Let the maintenance guys do their jobs.

[Guest Crew Report]

Hmmm, I had assumed that it was true globally. In my case Barksdale definitely had flightline MX under ops until at least July '02.

JSTARS (ACC) had separate MX and Ops back in 2001.

[Prosuper]

JSTARS (ACC) had separate MX and Ops back in 2001.

AWACS mx left Ops in the early 90's. We disbanded our FSMU's to try a brand new idea, it was called a Aircraft Generation Sqaudron with all airplanes taken from the flying squadrons and they flew what was available. This was the knee jerk response after the Black Hawk shoot down during Operation Provide Comfort to increase mission ready crews from 27 to 42 with only 15 available E-3's stateside for training plus another Flying squadron standing up. With all other requirments and taskings we were lucky to have 8 acft for training plus keep our associate reserve unit trained. It did not take long before the fleet was in terrible shape.

[Herk Driver]

OK I did not work under Ops since 1995, and I was in ACC.

I had Mx in my squadron until the '02-'03 timeframe. That was USAFE.

[Stitch]

The big problem is that each side thinks they're right, and refuses to go learn what the issues are for the other side... I've heard metric shit-tons of ignorant, biased bullshit about the other side equally from both sides... .

Agree. When I got to Mtn Home in late 98' OPS and MX were in the same squadron and the CC had an "orientation" program. All the MX guys/gals went over to OPS and either the CC or DO gave a brief on what they on the pilot side of the house did and why they do what they do (upgrades, check rides, etc...). On the other side of the coin, the new pilots met with the MX OIC for a brief on the how/what/whys of MX world. While it didn't make all teddy bears and roses between the two halves of the squadron it did help clear up some of misconceptions and ignorance on both sides.

[Hammer]

I'm a fairly young co so I am curious to compare other MWS experiences. On every TDY I've been on in the 135 we bring at least 2 Crew Chiefs/Specialists with us. I've spent some time talking with these dudes on the bus, in the bar and in the jet learning about what they do and why they do it that way.

Fighter guys, what kind of similar opportunities do you get? I've flown around some F-15 & F-18 MRTs so I know you don't necessarily have crew chiefs with you everywhere you go (thanks for breaking at Wake, I had a blast there ).

Other AMC type guys, do you bring FCC's everywhere you go?

[JarheadBoom]

Lean Logistics, another bad idea from Gen McPeak.

The AF ain't the only place Lean sucks...

Other AMC type guys, do you bring FCC's everywhere you go?

McGuire KC-10s take 1 FCC on CONUS missions, and 2 FCCs on OCONUS missions.

** edit - added multiquote

Edited January 12, 2011 by JarheadBoom

[pawnman]

There's a new one.

Including queep about powerpoint slides at 3:05.

[jrobe]

rouge aircraft... awesome

and remember keep your colon secure

[Prosuper]

Yes lets be perfect, I want 100% compliance, who put garbage in the garbage can. I have actually been written up for having FOD in my FOD can right after a FOD walk. I have been written up during a document review (781 series) for a greasy thumbprint on the binder and had to answer a QA fail report for it. Why was that takeoff late, because QA wanted to do a eval on the crew chief right during the red ball, plus the pilot had to fill out a police report when the Pro Super, Crew Chief and Specialist launch truck gave the QA inspector a blanket party. Since a QA fails mean a loss of a stripe now. Preflights take 3 days now because everybody is scared QA will burn there house down. Maybe we should go back under OP's. I think I worked fro that Col once.

[MKopack]

When I first arrived at MacDill in '87 as a shiny new crew chief there was a lot of really bad juju between MX and OPS in our squadron. We were understaffed (due to a random pee-test of everyone in the AMU a couple of months before that busted out a full 25% of the unit - and even more of the younger ones)(Hey, it was the Miami Vice days and we were in Florida...) and they were overtasked with young student pilots (especially as we in MX were having trouble generating FMC acft). We all had a feeling that something bad was going to happen, like there was a train closing fast and we were ALL stuck on the tracks.

What happened? A group of us younger crew chiefs ran into a bunch of our IP's out at a local chicken wing establishment on a Tuesday night. Everyone had a good night (nickle wings AND nickle beer probably helped) and it grew into an unofficial weekly event. Within a few weeks of talking over wings and beer, we both came to understand a lot of the "other sides" issues and priorities, and in doing so, a lot of those issues disappeared. Now the AF wouldn't have looked highly on this alcohol and chicken wing-fueled "fraternization" but it worked for us.

Never could keep LOX in the jets on Wednesday mornings though...

[Stitch]

.... actually been written up for having FOD in my FOD can right after a FOD walk ...been written up during a document review (781 series) for a greasy thumbprint on the binder...

Since a QA fails mean a loss of a stripe now. Preflights take 3 days now because everybody is scared QA will burn there house down...

Been there done that on both of those. So if you can't have FOD on the ramp or in the FOD can, just were the fvck are you supposed to keep it before you can get to the authorized FOD disposal place? Also, I can understand trying to keep the forms (781As, Ks, etc...) somewhat clean, but that's one major BS write up if you ask me.

On the loss of stripe thing please tell me it ain't so. Holy batsh*t! Just WTF is going on out there these days??

On a similiar note and not to sidetrack the thread: Kunsan 1992; both guys on my load crew were written up by the 1st Sgt during a dorm inspection for not having their beds made. The fact that they were asleep in same beds at time of the 0900 inspection after a 12+ hour swing shift was no excuse IAW the shirt after the Weapons flight chief and I tried to fight the situation.

The bullsh*t is everywhere....

[bagasticks]

I know it's been stated, and flamed before. . but. .there is not a rift between mx and ops in the navy/usmc air wing (there is at times tension but everyone is on the same page)

Mx officer (AMO) = pilot (04), reports to CC

line shack (flight line)OIC = pilot (03), reports to AMO

airframe OIC = you guessed it. . pilot (03), reports to AMO

Avionics OIC = same

Ordies OIC = same

seat shop = same

mx control (admin/sched types) = same

QA = same

it works. . everyone is on the same sheet, same objective, etc. . etc . . It wasnt unusual to see a pilot loading mk 82's with his boys after supper, sure beat hell out of scheduling or training.

big blue will never do it because everyone thinks they're the reason for the season.. I can only speak for USMC, but everyone in the organization knew that warheads on foreheads was the only reason we converted oxygen.