T-44s for Phase III

[chuckschwartz]

Recently spoke with the 14 FTW Commander here at Columbus, and figured I'd disseminate what he told me for all you T-44 hopefuls out there. He said the last class to get T-44s will be Class 12-14 here at CAFB, and 12-15 at the other bases. Thought I'd let everyone know what he said.

[B*D*A]

Recently spoke with the 14 FTW Commander here at Columbus, and figured I'd disseminate what he told me for all you T-44 hopefuls out there. He said the last class to get T-44s will be Class 12-14 here at CAFB, and 12-15 at the other bases. Thought I'd let everyone know what he said.

Bummer, Corpus was a blast despite the shitty plane (un)availability. Good times there, VT-31 hoot hoot!

Edit: Pic is from the Eagle Pub in Cambridge, England.

Edited January 31, 2011 by B*D*A

[Wolf424]

I'll believe it when I see it. We just sent two guys there to be IPs. Unless they are on 2 year orders, I don't see it happening. They have been saying this for years.

[nunya]

Seems to be legit this time. An IP who just left Corpus said the AF IPs were getting 2 year orders when he left. And the O-5s at Whiting just briefed the AF studs here that they can track 44s, but they'll be one of the last classes to have the option.

[Linda]

Wha'!?

What's the deal with 44s departing the fix as an option, eh? Didn't the Navy just upgrade 'em to glass cockpits and such?

I thought that was the best training and overall experience I had during SUPT... sheesh.

Tonight's sortie ended with us shooting an ILS down to mins, "continue," made me glad I had that training as a youngster.

[MTW]

Tonight's sortie ended with us shooting an ILS down to mins, "continue," made me glad I had that training as a youngster.

Because T-1s and T-38s don't teach their studs to shoot an ILS down to mins?

In my Little Rock class there was a good mix of guys from T-38s, T-1s and T-44s. My experience is limited as I am just a lowly LT, but there wasn't any big noticeable difference. I would have killed for a Corpus spot, but didnt earn one in T-6s. Still ended up in a herc and love it, but was glad that in phase III I got a mix of experiences from a wide variety of airframes. Also getting my wings almost 3 months ahead of my classmate who did go to Corpus is pretty awesome. Only big difference I did notice was that I had only done 2 NDBs prior to getting to Little Rock, where as the Corpus guys had pretty much done a couple million of them it seemed.

[Linda]

*sigh*

... must not get pulled into the Troll from an LT... must resist...

[MTW]

Jeez, sorry, long time lurker finally making a few posts... sorry If I came off as a troll.

If Corpus truly does end, what parts of Corpus training do you hope to see the T-1 program pick up? Its probably a pipe dream to think that anything would change, but you never know.

I can say that I wish the T-1 program would have been a little more "big boy", show up to fly, know your shit then, then leave. Being back on formal release for the majority of phase III blew, and really added nothing to the program other than forcing us to be in our flight room for 12 hrs a day.

[nunya]

Does Corpus have "Review Stage" still? T-1s oughta pick that up. Single engine LOC BC to a no-heading NDB hold to a no-gyro ILS.

Edited February 3, 2011 by nunya

[MTW]

As far as I know from my buds who did go through Corpus recently, the review stage still exists. T-1s don't have anything comparable. T-1s just have their standard transition - nav - mission fam. During normal flights students are encouraged to make them fairly benign with the almost standard ILS to LOC to the same runway to 1 engine ILS to the same runway to a GPS to the same runway to a few VFR patterns, hold on the way out of the airfield, then RTB.

I hope they bring a student-solo sortie back to T-1s. Would have been a great confidence builder, and a good time.

[Linda]

sorry If I came off as a troll.

No worries... you'll learn to read what you write before you hit send. Sarcasm and tone don't carry over well on the Interwebs, thanks to Al Gore. I'm sure that all pipelines teach their kids to fly to DH... but this shit was serious (DH and BELOW --> "continue!").

What do I wish they'd carry over? Shit.. the way the Navy TRAINED us instead of kicking us in the balls on a daily basis, for one. Second, the fact that my IPs hammered all the instrument flying knowledge into my nugget that would fit... and they tested it on the ground and in the air with relentless "REAL" (via the "God Box") emergencies and GK questions during approaches and patterns. My instrument cross-check moved somewhere near the Mach when I left Corpus. I've been flyin' the Herk for quite a while now, and she's slowed somewhat... as the Herk doesn't go "that fast," but what great training!

Yes, I must emphasize the "Big Boy Program" here - Treat me as if I'm an adult... give me the schedule and the items we're to cover on my 3 flights this week (Granted, previous stuff is fair game, too)... and I'll know that shit COLD. Don't throw the book at me; tell me to know it all by day 4; and crucify me day 6 because the schedule would only support option 3 out of 3 on my available training list (the way we were treated in 37s).

Connect what we're doing NOW to what I'll be doing in the REAL WORLD (how the IPs linked Tactical Low Level and Formation Low Level flights with our ops in the Herk). We ran the same basic profiles... filled out the same basic set-up sheets... talked about the same basic procedures... it made sense!

Flying turboprops is the best way to train a bubba to fly turboprops... it's that simple. What's the plan if not to send guys through Corpus!?

[MTW]

Honestly, everything you mentioned was what I hoped to get out of T-1s, some of it happened, some of it didn't...

The T-1 is limited as to what you can do like the T-44A did with its god-box. I believe that the T-44C doesn't have a god box, so the navy upgraded itself out of that sort of training. Also most of the emergencies were taught in the sim. Learning how to handle an engine out in the T-1 with runaway rudder trim while flying an ILS down to mins is probably best left for the sim. Honestly, I don't think the lack of emergency training in the air during T-1s hurts me, or any other toner herc pilots out there. Is it cool that Corpus does it? Yes! 100% Necessary, maybe not, but once again, my experiences are incredibly limited. Almost everything is done in the sim nowadays, and the training in the air is fairly benign in regards to EPs. Is this hurting the C-130 community? Maybe, but I don't have enough experience to say so.

My single most memorable flight in T-1s was with a former Talon II IP who had us doing all kinds of crazy(for a T-1) tactical stuff through one of the low levels. Form solo in T-6s was cool, but this was the flight that solidified in me that I wanted to fly true tac airlift. A lot of what we did in T-1s didnt really fit in with what we do in the Herc, but the T-1 has to satisfy a lot more customers/airframes(sts). The plans we made and the cards we filled out in T-1s were similar to the 280s that hercs use today. Corpus and T-1s aren't identical in what they did during the low level phase, but they seem to have many similarities, and I felt confident when I got to Little Rock and began the tac phase.

T-1s are incredibly GK intensive, much more so than Corpus. I know I didnt go through Corpus, but just in discussing this with the guys around the squadron who did, I feel it isnt a stretch to say this. T-1s don't tell you exactly what you need to know for every flight, they just say "know the 217, 202 etc". You get grilled on GK every flight. Generally the IP would ask you about your plan, and then have the GK session center around that. If you didnt know what you were doing GK wise, they usually either wouldn't let you do it in the air, or would downgrade you on the procedure item and the overall GK grade. There were some IPs that would throw the book at you day 1 and then crucify you for not knowing it. Was it fair? Probably not, but it happened, and you just got ready for it if you knew you were flying with that IP. By the time Nav check rolled around though your standard T-1 stud will have a pretty amazing understanding of EVERYTHING in the 217, 202, AP1B, IFR sup etc. You also still have EPQs in T-1s, so you get your weekly fill of random queepy ass questions that make you feel like a rockstar when you guess the right answer, but these were pretty worthless and could probably just be eliminated.

I felt as if I was treated more as a big boy in T-6s then I was in my flight in T-1s. I felt this was backwards and was a BIG weakness of the program. This just seemed to be my flight however, as other flights had very different experiences. I knew it was bad when my class got to have a 1.5 hr stand up GK session 2 days before our drop. We're about to graduate from the program and the BS still hadn't stopped.

T-1s also do aerial refueling, which honestly had nothing to do with flying a normal slick, but for any of the herc variants who do handle AR, it will be a big help to them. It gets you used to doing a shitload of math quickly in the air, and hashing out some sort of plan to try to get gas. Also getting to fly formation at FL310 is pretty cool, and will probably be your last chance to be up that high if you drop a herc.

Flying turboprops is the best way to train a bubba to fly turboprops... it's that simple. What's the plan if not to send guys through Corpus!?

I would imagine if not through Corpus then through good ol' T-1s. Don't worry, the T-1 is a great airframe for training future C-130 pilots. Yes, it is a jet engine, but it still handles very similarly to a C-130. The plane is a beast to fly due to not having ailerons (gotta love spoilers!) and is honestly less forgiving than the herc. The plane is a bitch to land due to dutch roll, and is very unforgiving if you have no clue what you are doing (ie your standard student). The T-1 program could probably benefit from having a lot more emergency stuff in the air, and I feel that was the training at Corpus' best trait. But the EP training at the Rock was pretty good, and definitely prepares you to handle the many emergencies you will see in the 62 E model hercs you may get to fly at the school house nowadays. You do also get an introduction to a prop in T-6s, it's nowhere near what you get at Corpus, but you still get the basics of a prop, understanding how it can help and hurt you etc.

By far, the best part of the T-1 program was getting to still be in a flight and class, still get to show up to work with 10-15 of your best friends. I know that is something that my Corpus buddies lost out on, but they gained easy access to a beach and those fine Corpus women, so its probably a wash there...

[Wolf424]

Does Corpus have "Review Stage" still? T-1s oughta pick that up. Single engine LOC BC to a no-heading NDB hold to a no-gyro ILS.

While on oxygen

Yes, it is a jet engine, but it still handles very similarly to a C-130.

Hmmm, I doubt the tone gives the same feeling of asymmetric power as a 44/C-12 on one engine.

they just say "know the 217, 202 etc

Kind of like how the guys at corpus say "know the FAR/AIM and NATOPS"

Also getting to fly formation at FL310 is pretty cool, and will probably be your last chance to be up that high if you drop a herc.

It all looks the same after FL180

You do also get an introduction to a prop in T-6s, it's nowhere near what you get at Corpus, but you still get the basics of a prop, understanding how it can help and hurt you etc

The PMU on the T-6 makes it different. Hard to say it's the same as other props. I learned quite a bit about turboprops in Corpus.

By far, the best part of the T-1 program was getting to still be in a flight and class, still get to show up to work with 10-15 of your best friends. I know that is something that my Corpus buddies lost out on

Instead of showing up to work with my friends, I showed up to the beach with them.

3 months is a bit of an exaggeration isn't it? I graduated within a month of my UPT class, which is about right, because we had to go to water survival. So the difference in time is minimal.

Bottom line, Corpus provides training that is unique. Not saying that a herk pilot can't come from tones or 38s (38s were the only show in town back in the day). But after watching tone guys at the rock stare at analog instruments and learn about that foot pedal some of us refer to as a "rudder" for the first time, it's hard to say that corpus training isn't better suited for herk guys.

[Hacker]

I'm sure that all pipelines teach their kids to fly to DH... but this shit was serious (DH and BELOW --> "continue!").

What exactly do you mean here?

[MTW]

I don't think anyone will ever question that Corpus training isn't better suited for herk guys, it was a program designed from the ground up to train turboprop pilots. T-1s train you very well to go into any non-fighter airframe, and I believe that when I filled out my drop sheet I had 51 different choices of places I could go. The herk community is going to lose a couple of months of training in turboprops. In the grand scheme of things this probably won't hurt our community much. Little Rock does a very good job of taking people from any airframe and turning them into great herk crewdogs. I won't deny that Corpus is great deal with some great training aspects, but those aspects with regards to training are minimal in my opinion, and easily caught up during Little Rock. I really wanted to go to Corpus at some point, but it looks like that opportunity is dissapearing.

Areas where I was behind due to T-1s were analog instruments and some of the approaches like NDBs etc. I understood how to fly an NDB, understood how to read some of the old ass stuff we have in the herk, but just needed a little bit of practice doing it. I may have been behind in this, but the T-44A/TC-12 guys who never used an FMS, a flight director or a GPS are probably behind in the J models in regards to their T-1 peers. Instead of doing NDBs, T-1s spend a lot of time on GPS approaches, which will be a big help in the J model and AMP(if it ever happens) transition. Rudder use was not a factor despite what everyone jokes about. I thought I would be lightyears behind the Corpus guys in my class in flying the C-130. I was behind in some regards, ahead in others. Really not that big of a deal.

3 months isnt much of an exageration. Some guys show up the same day as their Corpus peers, some guys are showing up almost a year later than the T-1 guys. The timeline from start of phase III to mission ready has so many factors that its probably nearly impossible to predict when a T-1 guy will be MR vs a Corpus guy being MR. I personally would have had a 2 month head start on a bud of mine a class ahead of me who went through Corpus. However, the speed at which I got done with T-1s was wiped out by having water survival delayed due to the gulf oil slick. This delayed my RNLT 2 months. I would have made it to the same base as him significantly earlier despite the fact that I washed back a class, and didnt do water survival before starting phase III. BP had other plans though...

From my UPT T-1 class of 11, there are 4 of us flying Herks, 1 flying MC-12s currently, and 1 T-6 FAIP. 1/2 of my class is flying a prop aircraft. I don't think any of us had any problem transitioning to a prop, or were ever at a disadvantage because we flew the Tone.

T-1s vs. Corpus tends to come up a lot in discussion. I hope that the T-1 program can incorporate some of the best parts of Corpus training into it. I never went through Corpus, but I am now in a community where 90% of the pilots around did, so I get to hear plenty about it.

I went from the T-1 to the Herk, anyone out there go from the Herk to the T-1 or another jet aircraft care to chime in?

[waltopfor]

No GPS approaches yet for the J. As a T-44a guy in JPIQ I really wish our autopilot had a better operating rate than about 30%, ditto for the FMS. However the skills learned in Corpus really stressed the fundamentals, any aircraft those don't really change its a new set of data entry. I wouldent trade my time at Corpus at all.

[MTW]

Ya, pretty ridiculous that Js can't fly GPS approaches yet. There are a shitload of them out there, and they are a lot easier and simpler to fly then the ol NDB. Js in general are just kind of having problems doing stuff in the WX.

[Wolf424]

No GPS approaches yet for the J. As a T-44a guy in JPIQ I really wish our autopilot had a better operating rate than about 30%, ditto for the FMS. However the skills learned in Corpus really stressed the fundamentals, any aircraft those don't really change its a new set of data entry. I wouldent trade my time at Corpus at all.

Can't speak for the 44, but in the C-12, we had a great FMS and flew GPS approaches all the time. The autopilot was hit or miss, but I'd say it was on par with the herk as far a reliability goes.