Skitzo Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Current and former EPs: Have you ever administered a checkride (Q-1), subsequently told the examinee there could be a couple of downgrades, you would have to look something up to determine it. Upon further review you downgrade the examinee on said area. Does this pass the smell test?
skibum Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Current and former EPs: Have you ever administered a checkride (Q-1), subsequently told the examinee there could be a couple of downgrades, you would have to look something up to determine it. Upon further review you downgrade the examinee on said area. Does this pass the smell test? Depends. If you actually got told it was a Q1 and then it changed to Q2 then I'd say the guy (or girl) should have kept his/her mouth shut in the first place and just told you to stand by. On the other hand, if it was still a Q1 then who cares? It may have been an issue where the person was on the edge, maybe was not all that familiar with the local culture, maybe wanted to get some mentoring form a more experienced pilot, or most likely, wanted to make sure the eval was STANDARDIZED (the part of STAN/EVAL everyone seems to forget about) so that you didn't get a pass while all the otehr bubbas got a check minus for the exact same issue.
Jughead Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) Does this pass the smell test? It's been several years since I've worn an EP hat, but.... If by "downgrade" you mean discrepancy(ies) annotated on the Fm 8 (but Q-1 overall), then absolutely--hell, you already told him that, perhaps I don't understand the question. (?) If you mean Q-2 (or Q-3) overall.... well, I'd say it falls in the "shitty situation" category, but you're still within the letter of the law. I'd argue also, however shitty, that it's within the intent as well, in the bigger picture. If your judgment is that the 4G inverted dive with the MiG 28 was performed at 2m range (when the checkride tolerance is clearly 1.5m), AND your judgment also is that there weren't mitigating circumstances that would make it inappropriate to document--well, that judgment is what your CC is paying you the evaluator bonus allowance for. Until you put your signature on the Fm 8, your discussions in the debrief are just that--discussion. FWIW: One piece of advice that served me well during my Stan/Eval days, from my commander: consider the greater good (will a downgrade/bust and the subsequent training have a positive or negative effect on mission accomplishment & flying safety?), use your judgment in the gray areas, don't be afraid to hook or to EQ if/when warranted, and above all put your integrity ahead of your popularity. Worked for me.... ETA: Skibum posted while I was typing (interesting, he took it that you were the examinee, I assumed you were the examiner). He makes excellent points as well--chief among them being that this question wouldn't even arise if everyone involved kept their mouths shut.... Edited February 23, 2011 by Jughead 1
Learjetter Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Does this pass the smell test? It's not illegal, but it would be considered poor technique in my circles. Typically, if I'm officially downgrading you on something (actually commenting on the form 8), you're going to hear all about it in the debrief. If you passed, you'll know that right away, but I'll say something like "meet me in a half hour to debrief" if i think i need to look something up. When the debrief is over, you'll know exactly what'll be on the form 8. If you didn't pass--you probably know that the instant it happens. I think the examiner in this case maybe was unsure of the vol 2 tolerances for whatever he was downgrading: when an examiner is unsure, I think he should say nothing until he is sure. Easy to say...
BQZip01 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Not an Evaluator, but I've been given about 12 checkrides, so here's my two cents: Not exactly good form, but if it was just a downgrade and still a Q1, don't worry. If you are still worried, I think you may have misunderstood the purpose of the checkride. Downgrades happen. You can do just about everything right and suddenly the wind shifts and make a minor heading variation. It sucks, but it REALLY is no big deal in the grand scheme of things. If you are doing fine academically and this was a minor blip, I doubt anyone will remember it beyond the end of pilot training and it shouldn't affect your class standing in any meaningful way. Yes, we ALL want to have that PERFECT checkride, but things happen. I don't know ANYONE who's ever had a "perfect" ride where EVERYTHING went right. I think you are making FAR more of a big deal about this than is necessary. And honestly, if you are worried about a single downgrade, you are doing better than a lot of people. DON'T WORRY!!! FIDO = Forget it! Drive on!
Skitzo Posted February 23, 2011 Author Posted February 23, 2011 Thanks for the comments, not my checkride just a story about a checkride. The story got me thinking and since there is such a wealth of experience / backgrounds I thought I'd ask here. Thanks for all the inputs it's hard to see the other side of the story without having been there done that.BTW- I'm not in UPT or anything, been around for a while now so I'm not worrying about UPT MASS Score or anything.
TreeA10 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 From the way it sounds, the EP thought something wasn't quite right on the checkride and had to review grading criteria to assess the correct grade based on acceptable parameters and/or area to downgrade. The EP told the examinee basically the same thing. Doesn't sound too odd to me.
Flare Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Not an EP, but I was a chief of Stan-Eval in the Viper and did a little time giving checkrides in white jet world. My personal take...if the error was so minor that he had to look it up to even see if it was a downgrade, then it probably wasn't worthy of being a hit in the first place. Either that, or you just had an EP not worth his salt. If you (as an EP) have questions about that, you should look them up and be prepared BEFORE you start the debrief.
dmeg130 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Well, if you've never been an EP (as the question was directed) then I suppose you really have nothing of value to contribute on this one. Q-1. Meets standards, nothing so aggregious as to require additional training. Could have no individual area downgrades, or could have several that were non-critical areas or Unsat. The evaluator will debrief all areas observed, and any discrepancies must be cleared during debrief or additional training. It's not unusual, however, to determine the actual areas or wording of a downgrade until further reflection, then get back with the examinee and tell them specifically what you've decided. It's nice to have that done ASAP so nobody loses sleep over it, but you are the evaluator, so better to make the right call later than the wrong one early. And if anyone really has a beef with the downgrades on a Q-1 checkride, they should probably punch themself. What IS a huge foul is telling them an overall grade, then changing it later (good or bad). If you are unsure, tell them you haven't decided yet, debrief all of the discrepancies, then take time to think and/or get advice on the overall grade. You usually know in your gut -- the vol 2 is only there for the paperwork. If I know the overall grade I'm giving, I always lead with that so that they'll pay attention to the rest of the debrief.
Guest Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Well, if you've never been an EP (as the question was directed) then I suppose you really have nothing of value to contribute on this one. That's not true. I hope you don't think that only because someone has been been a SEFE they have something of value to contribute? Evaluating the work of others is the easiest thing in the world to do. Anyone who thinks they are special or have some sort of unique perspective because they've given a checkride is full of shit. As for the question...I've had it done to me. One time it was so much bullshit that I threw chalk, eraser and the -34-1-1 at the SEFE and told him (at volume = max) that I was finished with the debrief, he could hook me for that chicken shit thing he had to look up if he wanted to and it was now step time for his ass kicking. He had come to the squadron from Nellis as a FWIC IP and his standards were a little out of whack and he didn't know how to be a decent wingman IMHBAO...so much so that I rejoined him to close and climbed from 100' AGL to 16K so we would be in the wx for the RTB from the range (which pissed him off but let him know who was the Flt Lead and who was the wingman for that sortie). It got loud enough that the DO had to come into the debrief to ask if "everything was going ok." I still got a Q-1. I became and remain great friends with the guy. In fact, he is my youngest son's Godfather. I still give him shit for that checkride and he still owns the fact that it was a bullshit move. I never did that to anyone I ever gave a checkride to. However, I'm probably the wrong guy to comment since I never gave a downgrade of any kind to a guy either. Momentary variations are part of flying a fighter and non-standard techniques, while sometimes annoying/ridiculous, are fine as long as they are briefed, legal and executed properly. Properly, not perfectly. People don't use stunt tactics in combat (at least in the A-10)...there's too much on the line, too much metal in the air and they're normally way to busy to fuck around. I knew that so I didn't sweat it when someone wanted to do something I thought was silly on a checkride. My only comments were "that was an interesting technique/tactic but there's NFW you're ever going to try to pull that shit off at night in shitty wx with a Lt on your wing with people shooting at you while you try to put ordnance down inside min safe with the ground CC's initials and the JTAC screaming on the radio so I would make the focus of your CT sorties what you know will actually work and leave the tactics development to the guys at Nellis." I always figured if I didn't know the answer I shouldn't ask the question and if I had to look up the tolerance for something I shouldn't be a SEFE. I looked plenty of things up in the source document(s) during debriefs but I did it together with the examinee and it was never about tolerances on stupid shit like altitudes or airspeeds or any other such queep. I also never had bullshit 9G super scenarios for EPEs. I had a standard blown tire on TO EP that I could cover all the boldface and hit all but a couple required EPs to meet the EPE requirements. Everyone who knew they were taking an EPE with me knew the blown tire on TO scenario was coming and it allowed them to click through the checklist and ops limits in a timely manner...thereby getting the bullshit over with ASAFP. The the beauty of a single seat cockpit is that Darwin reveals what the evaluator cannot see. Probably different for a crew airplane with lots of people but there should be enough mutual support to catch the fatal buffoonery. Technique only.
Ram Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 The the beauty of a single seat cockpit is that Darwin reveals what the evaluator cannot see.
dmeg130 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 That's not true. I hope you don't think that only because someone has been been a SEFE they have something of value to contribute? Evaluating the work of others is the easiest thing in the world to do. Anyone who thinks they are special or have some sort of unique perspective because they've given a checkride is full of shit. Quite true. Where I come from, we don't really have weapons guys, so our SEFEs are usually the most squared away. Unfortunately, some commanders upgrade shitty EPs without providing them any perspective on their role in the squadron. However, someone who hasn't been a SEFE trying to tell me how to administer a check probably doesn't have much to contribute to the conversation. I'd also say that anything you have to look up clearly wasn't scary/important enough to hook for, but the verbiage on the form 8 might have to be written in a particular way. Point is to make the right call for the squadron. Guy can/cannot do his job. Easy. Skitzo's question is an admin one, and not as cut and dry. For instance, guy can't fly maneuver X. Is that a Q-2 because he needs more training or Q-3? Anybody who says "my hands are tied" should be kicked in the junk and downgraded. Use your professional judgment -- theoretically, that's why you're a SEFE. You work for the boss to give him an honest (and accurate) assessment; if you need some time to do so, take it.
Guest Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Quite true. Where I come from, we don't really have weapons guys, so our SEFEs are usually the most squared away. Unfortunately, some commanders upgrade shitty EPs without providing them any perspective on their role in the squadron. However, someone who hasn't been a SEFE trying to tell me how to administer a check probably doesn't have much to contribute to the conversation. Fair enough. Of the two guys who were not SEFEs that commented one has given checkrides and worked in stan eval so I would say he has a valis perspective. Non SEFEs give checkrides in AETC and so do (some) Commanders. You work for the boss to give him an honest (and accurate) assessment; if you need some time to do so, take it. Agreed. There is never a problem setting a time for the debrief that allows a person to take a piss, grab a heater and look something up before the debrief.
Toro Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 That's not true. I hope you don't think that only because someone has been been a SEFE they have something of value to contribute? Evaluating the work of others is the easiest thing in the world to do. Anyone who thinks they are special or have some sort of unique perspective because they've given a checkride is full of shit. <<snip>> The the beauty of a single seat cockpit is that Darwin reveals what the evaluator cannot see. Probably different for a crew airplane with lots of people but there should be enough mutual support to catch the fatal buffoonery. Technique only. I had a response brewing, but this pretty much sums it up.
Skitzo Posted February 24, 2011 Author Posted February 24, 2011 I really thank everyone for their responses. I really think that this is one of the best things about baseops.net, so many different viewpoints and all of them valid. What was revealed was what I thought and that is despite having the responsibility of carrying an evaluator status that this status means different things to different communities. Some see checkrides as a necessary evil while others see it as the end all be all of performance despite it being a snapshot. Some of the best EPs I have known have said, allright checkride is over, you pass now lets beat up this pattern I have something I want you to learn. The worst EPs I have ever met have possessed an almost napoleonic complex and seemed to validate their existance on how many downgrades they could give or how many no notices they could subject guys to. Ever been on a checkride where you have been downgraded for a landing, then had the evaluator perform worse landings than you? I have! It wasn't their evaluation though!!! If I ever wear the EP hat I will most certainly give the guy the benefit of the doubt and if I am uncertain about an area that is not safety of flight related or another clean kill area I will most certainly take the uncertainaty as a learning point and debrief the individual accordingly. In my B-1 initial qual check I was downgraded for falling off the boom, it was valid and deserved. I look on that form 8 and I agree with it in its entirety. There were other areas that I could have been downgraded in and wasn't. Maybe that formed my intial opinion on checkrides as a necessary evil and not an end all be all.
BQZip01 Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 I really think that this is one of the best things about baseops.net, so many different viewpoints and all of them valid. Bullsh**! A plethora of worthless opinions abound!
Chuck17 Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 ...Some see checkrides as a necessary evil while others see it as the end all be all of performance despite it being a snapshot. ...Ever been on a checkride where you have been downgraded for a landing, then had the evaluator perform worse landings than you? I have! It wasn't their evaluation though!!! ...In my B-1 initial qual check I was downgraded for falling off the boom, it was valid and deserved. I was downgraded on my Operational Mission Eval for falling off the boom 4 times on a moonless night over the Black Sea, taking a 100,000 lbs onload (about 25-30 mins on the boom) while hauling 70k of cargo downrange... I wasnt unsafe, didnt have to divert, and eventually got all the gas. I just sucked at AR that night. On the return leg to the states, I had another 100,000 lbs onload that I took in one plug. My EP then took the jet and got a plug, falling off the boom after 30 secs. I asked, "Well... still gonna downgrade me on that AR?" He replied, "I have to!" I just looked at him and shook my head, knowing he just didnt get it. And thats the point - make a checkride, giving or receiving, what it's supposed to be... a snapshot check - OF THE SQUADRON TRAINING PROGRAM. Thats why you have things like trends, TRBs, upgrade programs... to make guys better, grow them from the ground up. Checkrides check the validity of that training, or those upgrades. SEFE's who aren't big picture make me laugh; those with god-complexes need to be crushed. Or sent elsewhere... like my former EP - who is now at Cannon "operating" RPA's. Sometimes things just work themselves out. Chuck
OL Patch Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 so many different viewpoints and all of them valid. Careful with the generalization...not every viewpoint is valid...everyone is not a winner/deserving of a trophy. But of course--everyone in the AF is a warrior (sarcasm) Not picking on you personnally...just an old guy observation. OL Patch
Guest Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Careful with the generalization...not every viewpoint is valid...everyone is not a winner/deserving of a trophy. What OL Patch meant to say was "The plaque for the alternates is down in the ladies' room."
BQZip01 Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 What OL Patch meant to say was "The plaque for the alternates is down in the ladies' room." HA! You're killing me! No boys, there's two O's in goose
zrooster99 Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 SEFE's who aren't big picture make me laugh; those with god-complexes need to be crushed. Or sent elsewhere... like my former EP - who is now at Cannon "operating" RPA's. Sometimes things just work themselves out. Chuck Lord Helmet?
zrooster99 Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 We have a winner. Chuck Hmmm...always assumed you were a CHS dude...
Chuck17 Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 Hmmm...always assumed you were a CHS dude... Tooey ! (j/k) Nope, Ive been on the West Coast a while, headed East in 6 weeks... Chuck
zrooster99 Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) Tooey ! (j/k) Nope, Ive been on the West Coast a while, headed East in 6 weeks... Chuck Good luck, dude. Edited February 25, 2011 by zrooster99
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