Stan Eval Shenanigans

[OL Patch]

What OL Patch meant to say was:

Skitzo, we live in a world that has checkrides, and those checkrides have to be guarded by SEFEs with red pens. Who's gonna do it? You? You, BQZip01? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for downgrades, and you curse the FORM 8. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Alarm Red's downgrade, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves useless careers. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at CGO meetings, you want me giving that checkride, you need me giving that checkride. We use words like how many feet off altitude, how many knots off airspeed. We use these words as the backbone of a life being tactically useless. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who steps and starts engines under the blanket of the checkrides I give, and then questions the manner in which I ask general knowledge questions. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a Master Question File, and run as fast as you can from the weapons officer. Either way, I don't give a damn what Q-1 no downgrade you think you are entitled to.

Edited February 25, 2011 by OL Patch

[Skitzo]

Nearly spit my beer out!

And the award for best adaptation of Col Nathan R Jessup's speech in A Few Good Men goes to Ol Patch.

Nicely done, this would make for a good skit come Sqd Holiday party time.

[OL Patch]

make for a good skit come Sqd Holiday party time.

Are there really self respecting squadrons out there that do skit's?? Only one's I ever heard about were somewhere out in the far east, and it always started with "It wasn't my squadron!" But of course, that was when most of you were in grade school.

[Carpetbagger]

Skitzo, we live in a world that has checkrides, and those checkrides have to be guarded by SEFEs with red pens. Who's gonna do it? You? You, BQZip01? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for downgrades, and you curse the FORM 8. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Alarm Red's downgrade, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves useless careers. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at CGO meetings, you want me giving that checkride, you need me giving that checkride. We use words like how many feet off altitude, how many knots off airspeed. We use these words as the backbone of a life being tactically useless. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who steps and starts engines under the blanket of the checkrides I give, and then questions the manner in which I ask general knowledge questions. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a Master Question File, and run as fast as you can from the weapons officer. Either way, I don't give a damn what Q-1 no downgrade you think you are entitled to.

EQ!

[BQZip01]

Skitzo, we live in a world that has checkrides, and those checkrides have to be guarded by SEFEs with red pens. Who's gonna do it? You? You, BQZip01? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for downgrades, and you curse the FORM 8. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Alarm Red's downgrade, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves useless careers. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at CGO meetings, you want me giving that checkride, you need me giving that checkride. We use words like how many feet off altitude, how many knots off airspeed. We use these words as the backbone of a life being tactically useless. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who steps and starts engines under the blanket of the checkrides I give, and then questions the manner in which I ask general knowledge questions. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a Master Question File, and run as fast as you can from the weapons officer. Either way, I don't give a damn what Q-1 no downgrade you think you are entitled to.

Me: Did you give him a downgrade on that checkride?

OL Patch: I don't have to explain...

Me: DID YOU GIVE HIM A DOWNGRADE?!?!

OL Patch: YOU'RE *** DAMN RIGHT I DID!!!

[Skitzo]

In my head I think ordering a no-notice checkride while deployed would be perfect for that particular scene.

[ClearedHot]

Skitzo, we live in a world that has checkrides, and those checkrides have to be guarded by SEFEs with red pens. Who's gonna do it? You? You, BQZip01? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for downgrades, and you curse the FORM 8. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Alarm Red's downgrade, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves useless careers. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at CGO meetings, you want me giving that checkride, you need me giving that checkride. We use words like how many feet off altitude, how many knots off airspeed. We use these words as the backbone of a life being tactically useless. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who steps and starts engines under the blanket of the checkrides I give, and then questions the manner in which I ask general knowledge questions. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a Master Question File, and run as fast as you can from the weapons officer. Either way, I don't give a damn what Q-1 no downgrade you think you are entitled to.

And that kind sir is why you are the Ol Patch...

[amcflyboy]

Skitzo, we live in a world that has checkrides, and those checkrides have to be guarded by SEFEs with red pens. Who's gonna do it? You? You, BQZip01? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for downgrades, and you curse the FORM 8. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Alarm Red's downgrade, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves useless careers. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at CGO meetings, you want me giving that checkride, you need me giving that checkride. We use words like how many feet off altitude, how many knots off airspeed. We use these words as the backbone of a life being tactically useless. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who steps and starts engines under the blanket of the checkrides I give, and then questions the manner in which I ask general knowledge questions. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a Master Question File, and run as fast as you can from the weapons officer. Either way, I don't give a damn what Q-1 no downgrade you think you are entitled to.

Don't forget, "I eat breakfast 4000 yards away from a bunch of fvcking Cubans who are trained to kill me!!"

[Guest markmanning]

Has a Q-2 or Q-3 during someones career after UPT resulted in disaster? I heard the 89th AW at Andrews AFB even allows for something like "no more than 2 Q-3's in your career and no more than 3 Q-2's in the past so many years" on the vacancy announcement.

Has anyone seen a Q-2 or Q-3 effect someone's flying career long term?

Edited March 4, 2011 by markmanning

[ClearedHot]

Has anyone seen a Q-2 or Q-3 effect someone's flying career long term?

Yes

[Guest markmanning]

Yes

What happened? Was the guys promotion effected etc?

[tac airlifter]

What happened? Was the guys promotion effected etc?

I knew a dude with 3 Q-3s in a row who was FEB'd and subsequently RIF'd.

[Bergman]

Yes

2.

I know plenty of really good aircrew who have gotten a Q-2/3 on ONE checkride for buffoonery, one-time mistake, SEFE judgement (or lack thereof), or whatever.

IMHO if someone has gotten more than one Q-2/3, they are either really unlucky or not very good at their job. Either way, in my experience, trying to get into an ANG unit would be difficult if not impossible. The airlines also look fairly closely at failed checkrides, so I would imagine it would not be beneficial for that career path either.

Edited March 4, 2011 by Bergman

[Guest]

2.

I know plenty of really good aircrew who have gotten a Q-2/3 on ONE checkride for buffoonery, one-time mistake, SEFE judgement (or lack thereof), or whatever.

IMHO if someone has gotten more than one Q-2/3, they are either really unlucky or not very good at their job. Either way, in my experience, trying to get into an ANG unit would be difficult if not impossible. The airlines also look fairly closely at failed checkrides, so I would imagine it would not be beneficial for that career path either.

This is why I never gave a downgrade on a checkride. Ever.

Your FEF is part of your permanent record that can/will live beyond your AD USAF career. I was always been amazed when I saw a shitty SEFE and blamed it on the Commander that picked and/or let that person keep that qualification.

No one checks your gradebooks and that's where the blood should be spilled.

[Skitzo]

Another for current or former EPs, or anyone who has recieved one. An EQ is pretty rare, I hear about them maybe once or twice a year. I know what the Vol 2 says about it is pretty vague outside of the very basics. What did you / the examinee do besides not getting downgraded to make you feel they were exceptionally qualified? Did they complete the eval and save the day with an actual EP? Have you ever felt someone deserved an EQ but were under pressure not to give any more out that semi annual / anuual cycle?

[Guest Crew Report]

2.

I know plenty of really good aircrew who have gotten a Q-2/3 on ONE checkride for buffoonery, one-time mistake, SEFE judgement (or lack thereof), or whatever.

IMHO if someone has gotten more than one Q-2/3, they are either really unlucky or not very good at their job. Either way, in my experience, trying to get into an ANG unit would be difficult if not impossible. The airlines also look fairly closely at failed checkrides, so I would imagine it would not be beneficial for that career path either.

If you are allowing (or doing) buffoonery on YOUR checkride, then you promptly deserve your Q-2, Q-3, Q-3/1, etc.

Has a Q-2 or Q-3 during someones career after UPT resulted in disaster? I heard the 89th AW at Andrews AFB even allows for something like "no more than 2 Q-3's in your career and no more than 3 Q-2's in the past so many years" on the vacancy announcement.

Has anyone seen a Q-2 or Q-3 effect someone's flying career long term?

I saw a Major come to the FTU for instructor school, bust 2-3 checkrides, busted down to a copilot, requaled at the FTU as an AC, failed another checkride, and then was "recalled" by his squadron before the FTU sent him to a FEB.

Edited March 5, 2011 by Crew Report

[Techsan]

I saw a Major come to the FTU for instructor school, bust 2-3 checkrides, busted down to a copilot, requaled at the FTU as an AC, failed another checkride, and then was "recalled" by his squadron before the FTU sent him to a FEB.

I've always thought that not getting through a formal training program resulted in an FEB---not downgrading that person to their previous qual. At lease thats how it works in the KC-10. If you're upgrading to IP, and can't get through the program you eventually find your way to an FEB---of course not before several 'Training Review Boards' held by the squadron to try & help the guy/gal out.

I'm not sure I'd mind being downgraded to a copilot. Same pay, no responsibilities. Sign a brother up!

[Guest Crew Report]

I've always thought that not getting through a formal training program resulted in an FEB---not downgrading that person to their previous qual. At lease thats how it works in the KC-10. If you're upgrading to IP, and can't get through the program you eventually find your way to an FEB---of course not before several 'Training Review Boards' held by the squadron to try & help the guy/gal out.

I'm not sure I'd mind being downgraded to a copilot. Same pay, no responsibilities. Sign a brother up!

The same theory applies, his unit "recalled" him back to the squadron, because if they hadn't, he would of failed the program and went to a FEB. If you have no aspirations of making it past Major and want to be the laughing stock of your community for failing out the instructor course at the FTU, sure go ahead.

[TreeA10]

Another for current or former EPs, or anyone who has recieved one. An EQ is pretty rare, I hear about them maybe once or twice a year. I know what the Vol 2 says about it is pretty vague outside of the very basics. What did you / the examinee do besides not getting downgraded to make you feel they were exceptionally qualified? Did they complete the eval and save the day with an actual EP? Have you ever felt someone deserved an EQ but were under pressure not to give any more out that semi annual / anuual cycle?

I gave out EQ's rarely. I never heard of any requirement or quota regarding EQ's. If I flew with a guy and the mission went flawless it was a definitely a Q-1. It is what is expected. If the examinee had to overcome weather, mechanical issues, or weapons issues and still flawlessly accomplished the mission where most could have easily given up, we are into EQ territory.

[Guest]

I never gave or got anything other than a Q-1 on an instrument check.

I think I gave an EQ on every mission check I ever gave at Nellis. Nothing magic about it, the guys were just exceptionally qualified and flew like it on their checkrides.

I didn't give too many EQs outside of Nellis but I can say you know one when you see one.

When I was young my flight commander told me his goal was to set me up for an EQ on all my mission checks. He had a great saying..."Checkride 'scenarios' are bullshit because in combat the scenario takes care of itself." He worked hard to schedule my checkrides when I would have the best shot at an EQ. The best opportunities were normally TDY/deployed because there were better training assets (and often live ordnance). That sometimes meant I took a checkride at the very beginning of my window and there were a couple times I took it outside the window simply because there was a chance to get an EQ.

I'll say this much, he was right about the checkride scenario. There's nothing better than a checkride where the SEFE is holding on for dear life the whole time instead of injecting bullshit preplanned inputs to the "scenario." SANDY 1 MSN/CC with 80 jets at Red Flag or leading a 4 ship high threat CAS and controlling five other flights as a FAC(A) on the same mission during a full up Force on Force at Air Warrior are opportunities like that and it's all there for you to either win it or lose it.

Most guys are happy to fly around the flagpole and get their Q-1, which is also just fine.

[OL Patch]

I never gave or got anything other than a Q-1 on an instrument check.

I think I gave an EQ on every mission check I ever gave at Nellis. Nothing magic about it, the guys were just exceptionally qualified and flew like it on their checkrides.

A big 2 on that one. Every msn ck I gave at Nellis was an EQ...every Inst Ck was a qual. Also made it easy that I flew everyday with the same IPs and knew that they were exceptional. Not that damn hard of a concept.

[Guest markmanning]

This is why I never gave a downgrade on a checkride. Ever.

Your FEF is part of your permanent record that can/will live beyond your AD USAF career. I was always been amazed when I saw a shitty SEFE and blamed it on the Commander that picked and/or let that person keep that qualification.

No one checks your gradebooks and that's where the blood should be spilled.

Couldn't agree more! You either give a guy a Q-1 or Q-3. Q-1 and debrief the shit out of him if you feel there's a problem, or Q-3 him and save a life an aircraft etc because you think he's unsafe or dangerous. A Q-2 is such the "middle ground" and sign of a "douchebag" examiner!! The only examiner I saw give a Q-2 to a fellow pilot was nothing short of a v@gina, who couldn't make a decision. To any current and future FE - remember that! An FEF stays with a guy/gal forever! Don't be a douche...

[Toro]

When I was young my flight commander told me his goal was to set me up for an EQ on all my mission checks. He had a great saying..."Checkride 'scenarios' are bullshit because in combat the scenario takes care of itself." He worked hard to schedule my checkrides when I would have the best shot at an EQ. The best opportunities were normally TDY/deployed because there were better training assets (and often live ordnance). That sometimes meant I took a checkride at the very beginning of my window and there were a couple times I took it outside the window simply because there was a chance to get an EQ.

Fucking brilliant.

[Guest]

Not that damn hard of a concept.

'Nuff said.

Watching OL Patch effectively boil a debrief down to those seven words when talking about Stan/Eval should not be confused with the way he conducted the famous/standard 10 hour Barnyard debriefs. That's the difference between an FEF and a gradebook.

[bagasticks]

If you are allowing (or doing) buffoonery on YOUR checkride, then you promptly deserve your Q-2, Q-3, Q-3/1, etc.

I saw a Major come to the FTU for instructor school, bust 2-3 checkrides, busted down to a copilot, requaled at the FTU as an AC, failed another checkride, and then was "recalled" by his squadron before the FTU sent him to a FEB.

This had to have happened at KLTS, that's the only place where this kind of checkride retardedness is acceptable.. There are too many EP's/IP's/EB's/IB's there that have never operated outside of the sanitized training environment.

Edited March 7, 2011 by bagasticks