ClearedHot Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 Apple has had their ass covered from the start. From the IPad license agreement: I think Alaska Airlines has already issued them to their pilots. Mentions in the article Alaska Airlines is running a test program with 200+ pilots.
KingGuy Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Mentions in the article Alaska Airlines is running a test program with 200+ pilots. I know a guy who used it for his training in T-1s. Said it was the easiest thing in the world... after he finally got his IPs to warm up to it. He also said the cost is currently only like $70 a year. I will be shocked if that doesn't skyrocket.
GovernmentMan Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 I was wondering about that. Nothing in the 217 or 202 prohibit it...just something about a 6 month evaluation period being required before it can be rolled out as a standard, or something.
Champ Kind Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) They were considering it at my last base but there were questions as whether it could hold up at altitude... or, and probably more problematic, Herk crewdogs. Edited February 28, 2011 by Champ Kind
ClearedHot Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 There are SOOO many ways we could use this, but yes I would want it somewhat ruggedized. Aside from takeoff, approach, and landing think about the tactical uses. If it was integrated you could use it as an electronic knee board or put it on the link and commence "John Madden" style pointy talkie CAS...
CHS17 Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 ...but there were questions as whether it could hold up at altitude... or, and probably more problematic, Herk crewdogs. Article says rapid-d test to 51k. The concern I've heard is the temperature of some of the garden spots we tend to visit for months at a time.
Lawman Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) Half the Pilots and IPs in my units have one of these. Im getting one the next time I have some expendable cash. Imagine a small device that takes up as much space as a regular spiral bound notebook... That you can load every Pup that you could ever want on. Complete Aircraft manual and Air Crew Training Manual. How much money to we piss away every 30-45 days in expiring charts and pubs in the military. Standards Pilot/SST/DES/Etc - "Im old and this device isnt what I had when I started out so I shall punish anyone I witness using this to study from or reference even though the pubs are exactly the same as the paper ones." Edited February 28, 2011 by Lawman
TacAirCoug Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 I have the ForeFlight app on my iPad and iPhone along with one of the Bluetooth GPS receivers the app supports. Both are a little pricey, but the upside is huge. I just throw the GPS receiver up on the glareshield and get a moving map display overlaid on high, low, and sectional charts as well as all the approach plates, SIDs, and STARs for the whole country. I haven't done it, but if you pay a little extra, you get your position overlaid on the IAPs. Overlay on other charts comes with the regular subscription. The app doesn't give you any charts for flying international, but it sure is sweet for flying in the States.
addict Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 I was wondering about that. Nothing in the 217 or 202 prohibit it...just something about a 6 month evaluation period being required before it can be rolled out as a standard, or something. Prior to authorizing EFB operations, the User MAJCOM will (in coordination with Lead MAJCOM): 2.17.1.6. Publish written approval prior to aircrew use of EFBs. Standard response, in the works... 2.17 lists a number of requirements that must be met prior to using EFB's. From what I can gather, I cannot use any electronic device for navigation or for a checklist until given explicit permission to do so. The Air Force has already covered their behind too. Access to the -1 to study? ok. Access to the -1 to run a checklist? not-so-much. It sounds like you guys are using iPads and the like, but that's just for SA enhancement during VMC, right?
KingGuy Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 I have the ForeFlight app on my iPad and iPhone along with one of the Bluetooth GPS receivers the app supports. Both are a little pricey, but the upside is huge. I just throw the GPS receiver up on the glareshield and get a moving map display overlaid on high, low, and sectional charts as well as all the approach plates, SIDs, and STARs for the whole country. I haven't done it, but if you pay a little extra, you get your position overlaid on the IAPs. Overlay on other charts comes with the regular subscription. The app doesn't give you any charts for flying international, but it sure is sweet for flying in the States. What is the cost of that app? And I thought the GPS used some kind of cell signal, but I guess not? So it works at altitude? That is pretty sweet.
contraildash Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 I love how I am required to carry all my pubs on a USB memory stick that is absolutely useless to me in the A/C. Most guys have already put our pubs on smart phones or iPads. I can see the benefit to having plates/charts on these things, but to me it'd only be useful if I can have all the volumes preloaded. They'd have to allow us access to the network with them to update/download/ect. I don't see that happening yet. The way of the future...sure. Now? Not quite yet.
TreeA10 Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 American Airlines is running a test on the 777 right now. I've seen the iPad used and it is pretty slick. Throw in aviation charts, weather, etc. and it is quite handy.
TacAirCoug Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 What is the cost of that app? And I thought the GPS used some kind of cell signal, but I guess not? So it works at altitude? That is pretty sweet. The app is free, but you have to buy a subscription for all the goodies. There is a free trial period included for a month, I think, so you can try it out without shelling out the big bucks. Subscription costs $25 for 3 months or $75 for a year. The GPS in the iPad is lousy, but it doesn't need a cell signal to work. If you have the wi-fi only model, there is no GPS chip in it, from what I understand. I have the 3G model, but went ahead and bought a separate battery powered bluetooth GPS receiver that provides a much better signal to the app. Fortunately, the receiver works with all GPS enabled apps on any Apple device (or even a laptop with bluetooth), so I can use it for more than just flying.
Trogdor Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Even if we could start using this stuff in the the plane, we would still be forced to haul around a huge bag of pubs everywhere we go. It would still be nice to just throw that bag behind the seat and not have to dig for that one stupid chart you can never seem to find. 1
DirtyHerk Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 They'd have to allow us access to the network with them to update/download/ect. Not necessarily true. I've been able to get any pub I've needed through either our Group Stan/Eval CoP (granted that required a CAC reader for my home computer) or through loading the Pub to a personal online server from work and downloading it from home. Either way pretty quick, and makes Pub access in flight MUCH easier. All in all its been a huge SA builder, and is well worth the effort to jump through the necessary hoops to get this approved for use.
B52gator Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Mobile porn and Angry Birds at the ready! 3
Guest Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Why can't we just put all that shit on an MFD instead of having all the extra bullshit in the cockpit? NAVO does an electonic update to the "pubs" database and you're GTG. I don't want to do pointy talky CAS on a map when I could do it with an IR pointer or just let the guy on the ground see what my sensor is looking at, including the coordinates. An iPad in a fighter cockpit is a fucking joke. That's what the HUand the MFDs are for. The last thing you need is more shit flying around during a threat reaction or an unusual attitude recovery.
Majestik Møøse Posted March 1, 2011 Posted March 1, 2011 Why can't we just put all that shit on an MFD instead of having all the extra bullshit in the cockpit? NAVO does an electonic update to the "pubs" database and you're GTG. I don't want to do pointy talky CAS on a map when I could do it with an IR pointer or just let the guy on the ground see what my sensor is looking at, including the coordinates. An iPad in a fighter cockpit is a ######ing joke. That's what the HUand the MFDs are for. The last thing you need is more shit flying around during a threat reaction or an unusual attitude recovery. The big benefit is the extremely low cost. A new iPad costs about $600 whereas the same capability in a MFD would cost, what, $50,000? I think the kneeboard thing for the Herc costs about $5,000. For that price you could buy plenty of iPads to replace broken ones. Plus, the iPad is actually customizable by the user, unlike everything else ever purchased by the DOD. My base has been working on getting them for about a year. I think they wanted to get them below the radar before too many higher-ups could get their inputs in and slow things down. Maybe too late. I've generally only heard of iPads being considered for the jets on which coffee is consumed. It would be kind of silly in a fighter. 2 1
Insubordinate & Churlish Posted March 1, 2011 Posted March 1, 2011 I know that there are definitely many advantages to an EFB, but... My knee jerk reaction is that paper charts don't freeze up, have software issues, lose a charge, lose the ability to hold a charge, have dead pixels, etc. How have these issues been overcome in the operational world? (I don't fly enough outside of a civilian flight training program, so I plead ignorance as to how the real world flying is.) Carrying around spare charts as a backup means you have only solved the problem halfway (faster ability to call up a chart, but now you're paying for and carrying around two different methods. It'd be like the paperless Air Force's online 623s. "We log all your training online! But keep filling out your 623 folder manually too just in case.").
Majestik Møøse Posted March 1, 2011 Posted March 1, 2011 Even if we could start using this stuff in the the plane, we would still be forced to haul around a huge bag of pubs everywhere we go. It would still be nice to just throw that bag behind the seat and not have to dig for that one stupid chart you can never seem to find. Voted your post up simply because of your login name. But otherwise, yeah, we'd still have to carry 100lbs of pubs to the jets. I think the biggest issue with the iPad is battery life. Does anybody have a realistic lifetime between charges? Could it last for an 18 hour sortie?
GovernmentMan Posted March 1, 2011 Posted March 1, 2011 Maybe I'm not following, but...would you be using a moving map and/or IAPs for the entire 18 hour sortie? If you only plan to cross-check your GPS position every half hour or so, it should have a negligible effect on battery life.
addict Posted March 1, 2011 Posted March 1, 2011 Voted your post up simply because of your login name. But otherwise, yeah, we'd still have to carry 100lbs of pubs to the jets. I think the biggest issue with the iPad is battery life. Does anybody have a realistic lifetime between charges? Could it last for an 18 hour sortie? When EFB conversion is complete, the paper flip disappears, and we'll just update our computers before stepping. Battery life? Exceptional. Less than 4 seconds from OFF to FLIP in your hands. Faster than you can find out EEA has a broken back and Bagram's ILS Rwy 03 is down in the kick-window with an un-opened water bottle.
Chuck Sargent Posted March 1, 2011 Posted March 1, 2011 FAA OKs iPad for Pilots’ Charts Can't see the bottom part of this chart. Are we supposed to scroll up and down as we fly? I can barely hold my flight parameters with both hands... BTW- I am ALL about the EFB. Looking at this, it just hit me why AFSA set the standards that the display must show the entire chart at the same scale as the paper copies. I can't tell you how many times I've had cell phone flexing from 4 inches to 2 feet from my eyes to read stuff [not that I was driving]. I'm just getting old, Bros.
DirtyHerk Posted March 1, 2011 Posted March 1, 2011 An iPad in a fighter cockpit is a ######ing joke. That's what the HUand the MFDs are for. The last thing you need is more shit flying around during a threat reaction or an unusual attitude recovery. Point taken, an EFB adaption to existing MFD's may be the best option for fighters. But for us fatties it is a pretty convenient tool. Even if we still have to carry paper copies for the "what if" scenario" I am perfectly happy rolling the Pubs kit out to the plane with me, and dumping it off in the back "just in case." Meanwhile freeing up the flight deck from just a little bit more junk to trip over. Can't see the bottom part of this chart. Are we supposed to scroll up and down as we fly? Thats actually one my favorite features of the iPad. The ability to drag/scroll/zoom/resize with your fingertips, really helps when navigating through the charts and FLIP especially in really busy airspace. You can view the documents at their normal size, as well as zoom in on the smaller harder to read sections. No more squinting and guessing what the MDA or Wx mins are. If I can't read it, just zoom in. Having a backlit LED screen also squashes the "where do I have to hold this thing so my lip light/flood light may actually light it up well enough to read it" game. On the mobility side of the house I've found it to be a pretty advantageous tool, just my .02.
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