FAA OKs iPad for Pilots’ Charts

[OverTQ]

I am currently in a MEDEVAC unit and I am trying to get IPads for my medics. They use protocol (think check lists) in treating patients. They are saying they have much greater access to information and protocols with a device like this. I am just learning the MEDEVAC stuff but it seems very reasonable. As for the cockpit. I would never want it flying guns. We already have BFT and that is enough. Too much already to keep you gaze inside. For flying FW or lift, I would like the use of one but not the full IPad size. I would like one like the Galaxy TAB. One that is about kneeboard size.

[sky_king]

Why don't they put it on a kindle. No glare, amazing battery life...

[ClearedHot]

Why can't we just put all that shit on an MFD instead of having all the extra bullshit in the cockpit? NAVO does an electonic update to the "pubs" database and you're GTG.

I don't want to do pointy talky CAS on a map when I could do it with an IR pointer or just let the guy on the ground see what my sensor is looking at, including the coordinates.

An iPad in a fighter cockpit is a fucking joke. That's what the HUand the MFDs are for. The last thing you need is more shit flying around during a threat reaction or an unusual attitude recovery.

Different strokes for different folks, I DO want to do pointy talky CAS or have any additional assets possible to improve SA and effectiveness. IR pointers don't work during the day, in urban situations, or in some environmental conditions. I certainly would not want the iPad to be the primary reference for CAS, but as another tool in the cockpit (aside from myself), I would welcome it.

Perhaps it won't work in a fighter cockpit, but I don't have room for MFP's (or funding for them). It would be a very simple and economical fix to put an Ipad with velcro on a thigh strap, which should solve the issue of a wayward iPad surfing around the cockpit during a defensive maneuver.

What you should really be wary of is the day we get X-Box controllers instead of a stick (yoke) and throttles.

[Jaded]

An iPad in a fighter cockpit is a ######ing joke. That's what the HUand the MFDs are for. The last thing you need is more shit flying around during a threat reaction or an unusual attitude recovery.

Yes, but the choice isn't going to be iPad or MFD. It's going to be iPad or nothing.

"Hey Lockheed, we'd like a moving map on our MFDs in the next F-16 tape."

"No problem, give me 10 million dollars and expect a rollout around 2016."

There's no way I'm looking at an iPad during a threat reaction. You're telling me, though, that tomorrow I can get a moving map display in every pubs bag for less than the cost of 1 DTC?

Plus, the iPad is a semi-open platform. You have something that your airframe/wing/squadron specifically wants? Have 1 pilot in the squadron learn objective C, and he can create it.

[Guest]

Different strokes for different folks,

Totally agree. I just don't want A-10 guys looking inside at an iPad when they have that big window to look out of.

I DO want to do pointy talky CAS

I guess I really don't know what that means.

It might be nice to have the maps on one electronic device instead of carrying 69lbs of maps out the the jet.

IR pointers don't work during the day, in urban situations, or in some environmental conditions.

Noted. That's what I was talking about letting the guys on the ground see what the sensor sees. Getting a talk on via a map is fine but that can be done with a map that can be stuffed anywhere vs a 6.9lb object that will break or slide up to the front of the canopy or get jammed in the pedals after a threat reaction.

Ipad with velcro on a thigh strap, which should solve the issue of a wayward iPad surfing around the cockpit during a defensive maneuver.

Maybe. Not worth finding out. It only takes one time to have shit flying around the cockpit during a threat reaction or unusual attitude recovery to make you think twice about what you want to bring into the jet with you.

What you should really be wary of is the day we get X-Box controllers instead of a stick (yoke) and throttles.

I've already resigned myself to the fact.

"No problem, give me 10 million dollars and expect a rollout around 2016."

Noted. BTDT.

There's no way I'm looking at an iPad during a threat reaction.

I didn't say look at it during a threat reaction. I'm talking about another piece of FOD bouncing off the canopy.

You have enough sensors in the jet, you don't need this shit. If you plan to hang in the bozosphere dropping JDAM and LGBs with the alt hold on, this is probably for you. Then again, so is an AWACS.

[runnerdm6]

Ipad kneeboard 1

Ipad kneeboard 2

Just thought I'd bring these to everyone's attention. Seems like it could cut back on the FOD risk during threat reaction/unusual attitudes

[contraildash]

Not necessarily true. I've been able to get any pub I've needed through either our Group Stan/Eval CoP (granted that required a CAC reader for my home computer) or through loading the Pub to a personal online server from work and downloading it from home. Either way pretty quick, and makes Pub access in flight MUCH easier. All in all its been a huge SA builder, and is well worth the effort to jump through the necessary hoops to get this approved for use.

I think my point wasn't clear. Pubs...yes. Plates/charts...no.

Also,

What about all the damn TERPS write-ins, ect for STARs,approaches, SIDs, ect. Yeah Jepps are nice, but any time I use them (or host nation) I'm completely changing the mins/visibility/ect on them. How do you do that on an iPad?

So I still think this is a good idea for our PUBS (I have my pubs on my iPhone). But as far as a practical use for what I just talked about above...far from it.

[Ram]

"Daytime IR pointer" = Laser Spot Search/Track, no?

I'm going to agree with Rainman about the iPad/fighter cockpit relationship: it shouldn't exist. There are already PLENTY of sensors/screens that divert my attention from the big window. FCR/HSD/HAD/HAS/RWR/TGP/YGBSM.

Also...how is it absolutely taboo to use a geekstick ANYWHERE, yet we're assuming it will be just peachy to bring a WiFi/3G device in and out of the vault/mission planning room? YGBSM...it'll NEVER happen.

[TreeA10]

I think my point wasn't clear. Pubs...yes. Plates/charts...no.

Also,

What about all the damn TERPS write-ins, ect for STARs,approaches, SIDs, ect. Yeah Jepps are nice, but any time I use them (or host nation) I'm completely changing the mins/visibility/ect on them. How do you do that on an iPad?

So I still think this is a good idea for our PUBS (I have my pubs on my iPhone). But as far as a practical use for what I just talked about above...far from it.

You can't change them but you can put a yellow sticky note on the item. Touch the yellow square and your note comes up.

[Karl Hungus]

Opinions

Interesting. According to apple, the iPad weighs 1.5 lbs. According to runner, there are several options that allow the iPad to be strapped to a pilot's thigh that seem somewhat reliable. Do A-10 pilots normally fly combat missions (or training missions for that matter) with kneeboards/ whatever strapped to their thighs? Do they fly around with pubs/ maps/ other "loose" items? If so, do they weigh more or less than 1.5 lbs? What about the items that a typical A-10 pilot wears on their thigh or have in the cockpit, and the methods they use to attach them to said thigh or store in the cockpit, make them less likely than an iPad to detach during combat maneuvers and become FOD?

I completely agree that the capes an iPad provides would be better provided via an MFD. Highly doubt we see that, however.

[Bronco130]

Interesting. According to apple, the iPad weighs 1.5 lbs. According to runner, there are several options that allow the iPad to be strapped to a pilot's thigh that seem somewhat reliable. Do A-10 pilots normally fly combat missions (or training missions for that matter) with kneeboards/ whatever strapped to their thighs? Do they fly around with pubs/ maps/ other "loose" items? If so, do they weigh more or less than 1.5 lbs? What about the items that a typical A-10 pilot wears on their thigh or have in the cockpit, and the methods they use to attach them to said thigh or store in the cockpit, make them less likely than an iPad to detach during combat maneuvers and become FOD?

I completely agree that the capes an iPad provides would be better provided via an MFD. Highly doubt we see that, however.

Boom.

[Smokin]

If the pilot on a commercial flight is cleared to use an ipad in the cockpit, why do I as a passenger have to turn off my MP3 player for takeoff and landing?

[Majestik Møøse]

Why don't they put it on a kindle. No glare, amazing battery life...

Plus, the iPad is a semi-open platform. You have something that your airframe/wing/squadron specifically wants? Have 1 pilot in the squadron learn objective C, and he can create it.

Kindles could be pretty good for pubs only, plus they're a lot cheaper. But I'd assume they're a lot harder to program stuff for. I think this is where a lot of people are missing the huge potential of the iPad. WE (the aircrew) could create whatever we feel like we need for the mission. There are a lot of smart, creative people in the AF that have to rely on contractors to make shitty computer programs that cost millions, both on the ground and in the air. Even if one of us wrote the world's best PC program, good luck getting the comm squadron to install it on a computer. If it's not a spreadsheet it won't happen.

There's a lot of potential things the iPad could quickly and easily calculate while airborne: moving maps (or charts), killbox coordinates, divert fuel, frag fuel, a NEAREST function, ETPs, TOLD (heaven forbid), weight & balance, 781s, MARs, etc. None of which my current aircraft can do on its own. Sad but true.

Ipad kneeboard 1

Just thought I'd bring these to everyone's attention. Seems like it could cut back on the FOD risk during threat reaction/unusual attitudes

Someone has reportedly already found a workable mounting bracket for my aircraft that installs without screws. Either way would work, though I could see my arm always hitting the kneeboard and changing the screen at just the wrong time.

Also...how is it absolutely taboo to use a geekstick ANYWHERE, yet we're assuming it will be just peachy to bring a WiFi/3G device in and out of the vault/mission planning room? YGBSM...it'll NEVER happen.

There is an idea for separate "Secret" iPads with wifi disabled and the requisite stickers. Heavy guys would need them in the desert but not really anywhere else.

Guide to Watching Porn on your iPad

Current pubs bags do not (usually) include porn. iPad could possibly. Case closed.

[BigFreddie]

If the pilot on a commercial flight is cleared to use an ipad in the cockpit, why do I as a passenger have to turn off my MP3 player for takeoff and landing?

Take your logic and go somewhere else!!! It will not be tolerated here!

I've ordered pizza in the pattern with my iPhone before and we did not spontaneously explode...

BF

[osulax05]

If the pilot on a commercial flight is cleared to use an ipad in the cockpit, why do I as a passenger have to turn off my MP3 player for takeoff and landing?

Not using an MP3 player for T/O and Landing has little to do with any electrical interference it might cause and a lot to do with your ability to emergency ground egress. Do you want your exit from a bad situation slowed down by someone who didn't hear the instructions to egress? Not me. An emergency ground egress from an airline would be crazy enough with all the jackasses on the plane trying to get out ASAFP, why add barriers to it?

[Bronco130]

iPad2

Play World of Warcraft 4, while writing Harry Potter XI, while watching 18 separate videos of HD porn, while posting random shit on baseops, while finding a 19th video of HD porn, all the while shooting a High Altitude Approach down to mins...

and you want the latter on an MFD?

[Guest]

Boom.

Don't be a buffoon. I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't iPad your ass off while you chew your cud with flat teeth. I'm talking about an iPad in a fighter. Not sure why you would give a shit about whether I think an iPad in a fighter is a good idea but you can keep trying to convince me or cheer on other herbivores who are trying to do the same for whatever unknown reasons you guys would want to do that. Technique only.

According to runner, there are several options that allow the iPad to be strapped to a pilot's thigh that seem somewhat reliable.

"Somewhat reliable" doesn't cut it. Jets have been lost from stupid shit like NVG cases coming loose (A-10) and piddle packs (F-16) and that was straight and level flight.

Do A-10 pilots normally fly combat missions (or training missions for that matter) with kneeboards/ whatever strapped to their thighs?

Kneeboards, yes. Whatever, no.

Do they fly around with pubs/ maps/ other "loose" items?

No, not loose. FWIW, a map/lineup card is not going to jam the flight controls if you lose/drop it.

What about the items that a typical A-10 pilot wears on their thigh or have in the cockpit, and the methods they use to attach them to said thigh or store in the cockpit, make them less likely than an iPad to detach during combat maneuvers and become FOD?

I never had anything but a kneeboard with paper on it attached to my thigh so I can't answer that. I know AATC did an electronic kneeboard test that failed for the reasons I have already mentioned.

Try to put it in perspective this way...1.5 lbs in a herbivore is never going to weigh much more than 1.5 lbs. That same 1.5 lb iPad is going to weigh +10 lbs many times in a fighter, especially between fence in and fence out.

It is a bad isea for a fighter. I just can't think of a practical use. I can imagine many good uses for a herbivore.

[Guest Crew Report]

Not using an MP3 player for T/O and Landing has little to do with any electrical interference it might cause and a lot to do with your ability to emergency ground egress. Do you want your exit from a bad situation slowed down by someone who didn't hear the instructions to egress? Not me. An emergency ground egress from an airline would be crazy enough with all the jackasses on the plane trying to get out ASAFP, why add barriers to it?

Where's that written at? Or is that an assumption?

[SurelySerious]

Where's that written at? Or is that an assumption?

Prohibiting the operation of any PEDs during the takeoff and landing phases of flight. It must be recognized that the potential for personal injury to passengers is a paramount consideration, as well as is the possibility of missing significant safety announcements during important phases of flight. This prohibition is in addition to lessening the possible interference that may arise during sterile cockpit operations (below 10,000 feet).

FAA Guidance Circular 91-21.1B

[Steve Davies]

I guess I really don't know what that means.

It might be nice to have the maps on one electronic device instead of carrying 69lbs of maps out the the jet.

I thought that 'pointy-talky CAS' was what the A-10C goes a long way to delivering - SADL, LST, TAD etc.

[osulax05]

Where's that written at? Or is that an assumption?

As SurelySerious already pointed out, it is FAA guidance not to mention (un)common sense.

I understand that we as aircrew members are required to know any/all regs regarding the operation of our A/C. But what does it say when we need a reg to tell us that wearing headphones and playing with 6-9 electronic devices isn't a good idea during T/O and Landing?

Edited March 3, 2011 by osulax05

[Guest Crew Report]

As SurelySerious already pointed out, it is FAA guidance not to mention (un)common sense.

I understand that we as aircrew members are required to know any/all regs regarding the operation of our A/C. But what does it say when we need a reg to tell us that wearing headphones and playing with 6-9 electronic devices isn't a good idea during T/O and Landing?

There's how many piss cans per how many pax graph in my jet's Vol 3. I wouldn't be surprised if we did receive something written about it.

[Guest]

I thought that 'pointy-talky CAS' was what the A-10C goes a long way to delivering - SADL, LST, TAD etc.

Not sure what you are saying that is different than what what said. We both agree that we already have plenty of tools and an iPad would be nothing but FOD.

I don't know what CH meant by pointy talky CAS wrt using an iPad. I'm not saying it can't be done, I just have no idea what he means or how you would use an iPad for CAS. I'm familiar with CAS, pointing and talking. I'm not familiar with the iPad.

I'm not calling him out, I simply don't see the connection because I'm not smart/familiar/handsome/young/good smelling enough wrt the iPad CAS capabilities.

[ClearedHot]

I don't know what CH meant by pointy talky CAS wrt using an iPad. I'm not saying it can't be done, I just have no idea what he means or how you would use an iPad for CAS. I'm familiar with CAS, pointing and talking. I'm not familiar with the iPad.

I'm not calling him out, I simply don't see the connection because I'm not smart/familiar/handsome/young/good smelling enough wrt the iPad CAS capabilities.

The last thing I feel is "called out".

"Pointy Talky CAS" is a loose construct floating around in my pea-brain based on having done CAS once or twice in my mediocre career and having used an iPad to surf porn...err do market research. CAS can be the best of times or the worst of times. More often than not it is confusing, chaotic, frightening, and did I say confusing. When the bros on the ground are getting shot through no malice of their own, they tend to speak fast, come in broken, send bad coordinates, keep their nuggets down, spend considerable time fighting back....rather than talking...I would certainly do the same. In my mind an iPad or some similar device that can present what the guy on the ground sees AND what the guy in the air sees in a COP that is interactive to both parties, offers hope in eliminating confusion. I certainly like the idea of sticking my claw up to the window with an IR pointer to circle and confirm a target location, but if environmental, urban, or combat factors preclude such a thing I think it would be nice to go John Madden and circle a part of the image like a telestrator that both parties can see. A "shoot here" capability that both parties can view/agree upon/manipulate does move the art of the possible a little further down the field and maybe helps us kill bad guys and more importantly save good guys a little bit better.

Just my .69c and not something I am going to get all butt hurt about if folks disagree. If someone has a better way, lets move out, but I see no harm in at least thinking about ways to do things better.

Edited March 3, 2011 by ClearedHot

[osulax05]

If someone has a better way, lets move out, but I see no harm in at least thinking about ways to do things better.

Pure gold.

We need a metric shit-ton more of that line of thinking in the AF.