F-35 Lightning info

[brabus]

Lot of hyperbole and borderline false statements in that article...but sometimes it’s required to get attention from the system unfortunately. 

[Clark Griswold]

More on the subject of potentially divesting F-15Cs and replacing with F-35As:

https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2019/06/11/the_wrong_fight_over_fighters_understanding_the_f-15x_purchase_114494.html

 

[RegularJoe]

Just a general question on the F35

I have noticed in just about every photo of the F35 taking off that it is always in full burner, is that amount of thrust needed for takeoff or just the pilots preference?

[brabus]

As with any jet, depends on gross weight, temp, altitude, runway length/condition, departure type, etc. Those factors drive takeoff power setting.

[LiquidSky]

The White House said Wednesday that Turkey can no longer be part of the American F-35 fighter jet program, saying in a written statement that Turkey's decision to buy the Russian S-400 air defense system "renders its continued involvement with the F-35 impossible."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/f-35-us-stops-sale-of-fighter-jets-to-turkey-citing-use-of-russian-s-400-air-defense-system/?

Edited July 18, 2019 by LiquidSky

[Steve Davies]

Given that the primary concern here seems to be that the Russians would have been able to improve their systems if Turkey had operated the S400 side-by-side with the F-35, what level of threat does Turkey now pose if it decides to handover what it knows about the F-35?

Seems odd that Turkish pilots were allowed to start training at Luke, and they presumably now have a treasure trove of secrets to share...

Edited July 18, 2019 by Steve Davies

[ctf151]

5 hours ago, Steve Davies said:

Given that the primary concern here seems to be that the Russians would have been able to improve their systems if Turkey had operated the S400 side-by-side with the F-35, what level of threat does Turkey now pose if it decides to handover what it knows about the F-35?

Seems odd that Turkish pilots were allowed to start training at Luke, and they presumably now have a treasure trove of secrets to share...

Surely the brass knew the possibility of Turkey ordering the S-400....I can't help but wonder what will happen to nuclear assets in Turkey down the line.

[FLEA]

On 7/19/2019 at 1:52 AM, ctf151 said:

Surely the brass knew the possibility of Turkey ordering the S-400....I can't help but wonder what will happen to nuclear assets in Turkey down the line.

I've worked on foreign FMS projects before and being blindsided by this comes as zero surprise to me. I wouldn't be surprised if Turkey knew the S400 could become a problem and tried to keep it a secret as long as possible to prevent endangering their F-35 buy. Queen Elizabeth once said states don't have friends, only interest. When you look through the world in that lense you realize how fragile alliances really are.

[ctf151]

18 hours ago, FLEA said:

I've worked on foreign FMS projects before and being blindsided by this comes as zero surprise to me. I wouldn't be surprised if Turkey knew the S400 could become a problem and tried to keep it a secret as long as possible to prevent endangering their F-35 buy. Queen Elizabeth once said states don't have friends, only interest. When you look through the world in that lense you realize how fragile alliances really are.

I can't help but wonder what would be the reason Turkey would get Russian S-400's. Why would you do that unless you were searching for vulnerabilities with the F-35? I can't help but speculate that that may have been Russia's plan all along. 

 

It's in Russia interests to befriend Turkey because:

1) Bosporus Straight access

2) They know Turkey has growing anti-western sentiment, and is  vulnerable to turn against NATO if the conditions are right

3) They want to remove nuclear assets if possible

 

Geopolitics is such an interesting topic....

[Laxer69]

I think it has more to do with their somewhat recent coup attempt where vipers were ripping over their capital.

[Jester203]

Excellent article covering the motivations behind the S-400 buy: https://warontherocks.com/2019/07/the-tale-of-turkey-and-the-patriots/

[Clark Griswold]

On 7/18/2019 at 6:07 AM, Steve Davies said:

Given that the primary concern here seems to be that the Russians would have been able to improve their systems if Turkey had operated the S400 side-by-side with the F-35, what level of threat does Turkey now pose if it decides to handover what it knows about the F-35?

Seems odd that Turkish pilots were allowed to start training at Luke, and they presumably now have a treasure trove of secrets to share...

On 7/18/2019 at 11:52 AM, ctf151 said:

Surely the brass knew the possibility of Turkey ordering the S-400....I can't help but wonder what will happen to nuclear assets in Turkey down the line.

Maybe but I have a naive hope that when the JSF was in a conceptual stage the real and likely increased risk of technological compromise due to the wide sale among various partners was openly addressed and mitigation was baked into the concept with the most sensitive information being limited to the US or UK only (Primary and Level 1 participants).  

Any info leak is a compromise but perhaps not a ship sinking hole in the boat.

On other F-35 news:

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-stealth-f-35a-just-surpassed-f-22a-one-key-metric-59552

More F-35s delivered to Big Blue than 22s built.  

[DesperateApplicant]

I hope the F-35 can fully retire the F-15.

[war007afa]

10 hours ago, DesperateApplicant said:

I hope the F-35 can fully retire the F-15.

You must work for Lockheed...

[brabus]

LM has less than 180 days to fix some big stuff or else face the F-35 buy go the way of the Raptor. Hope they pull it off, but also part of me wants to see them get the massive kick in the balls they deserve. 

[Blue]

1 hour ago, brabus said:

LM has less than 180 days to fix some big stuff or else face the F-35 buy go the way of the Raptor. Hope they pull it off, but also part of me wants to see them get the massive kick in the balls they deserve. 

Doesn’t surprise me, but source?

[Clark Griswold]

1 hour ago, Blue said:

Doesn’t surprise me, but source?

Article on deficiencies:

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/06/12/the-pentagon-is-battling-the-clock-to-fix-serious-unreported-f-35-problems/

Like Brabus, I think getting the F-35 right is the best outcome but LM getting a correction vector in the form of a truncated buy might be necessary.

As to the F-35 replacing the Eagle, maybe if they could optimize the outline for lower drag.  

Longer fuselage, lower cross-section with a slightly taller airframe, additional third weapons/mission bay forward of the existing two, finback conformal fuel tank, etc... if this variant were ever designed/built I would base off the A model to attempt to maximize commonality between the two to mitigate one of the major problems of variant incompatibility with parts/sub-systems. 

Lower drag, two more missiles, a bit more gas.  Japan might be interested in this as they have expressed interest in a 22/35 hybrid, this would not be exactly that but an air dominance focused variant, close enough.

[brabus]

They don’t need a new plane, they need to significantly reduce the fuck ups, timelines for delivery of future capes, etc. The product and it’s future growth are good, the management, delivery and support process of said product/future growth is what’s insanely fucked up. That’s what Goldfein is addressing. 

Edited September 1, 2019 by brabus

[FutureRaptor]

 

30 minutes ago, brabus said:

They don’t need a new plane, they need to significantly reduce the ups, timelines for delivery of future capes, etc. The product and it’s future growth are good, the management, delivery and support process of said product/future growth is what’s insanely ed up. That’s what Goldfein is addressing. 

Source? Other than Pierre Sprey?

[Clark Griswold]

10 hours ago, brabus said:

They don’t need a new plane, they need to significantly reduce the fuck ups, timelines for delivery of future capes, etc. The product and it’s future growth are good, the management, delivery and support process of said product/future growth is what’s insanely fucked up. That’s what Goldfein is addressing. 

Copy.  Agreed un-fornicating that which exists now is preferable (cost/risk/timing/possible) but... if restarting the Raptor line is a NO GO, then while the 35 line is open, exploring what is possible (perhaps not practical) would be wise IMHO.

A reverse of the process that developed the A-7 from the F-8.

[brabus]

Of course they’re always looking at and planning future upgrades/changes as technology becomes usable and we have the money to do it. F-35s rolling off the line today will be very different down the road. So again, there is no logical need to look into a replacement jet (sans Goldfein’s veiled threat to LM). New aircraft research in this case is wisely spent on 6th gen, which is entirely different than what you’re proposing.

[magnetfreezer]

On 9/1/2019 at 10:25 AM, Clark Griswold said:

Article on deficiencies:

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/06/12/the-pentagon-is-battling-the-clock-to-fix-serious-unreported-f-35-problems/

Like Brabus, I think getting the F-35 right is the best outcome but LM getting a correction vector in the form of a truncated buy might be necessary.

As to the F-35 replacing the Eagle, maybe if they could optimize the outline for lower drag.  

Longer fuselage, lower cross-section with a slightly taller airframe, additional third weapons/mission bay forward of the existing two, finback conformal fuel tank, etc... if this variant were ever designed/built I would base off the A model to attempt to maximize commonality between the two to mitigate one of the major problems of variant incompatibility with parts/sub-systems. 

Lower drag, two more missiles, a bit more gas.  Japan might be interested in this as they have expressed interest in a 22/35 hybrid, this would not be exactly that but an air dominance focused variant, close enough.

Exactly. Part of the problem with the -35 in the first place was the "joint strike fighter" moniker - Congress forced the services to get the same plane... because joint. AF wanted to replace the Viper, Navy the Hornet, and Marines the Harrier. The common fuselage design + the big VTOL fan for the Marines resulted in a bigger fuselage than needed for everyone.

[Clark Griswold]

On 9/2/2019 at 11:22 AM, magnetfreezer said:

Exactly. Part of the problem with the -35 in the first place was the "joint strike fighter" moniker - Congress forced the services to get the same plane... because joint. AF wanted to replace the Viper, Navy the Hornet, and Marines the Harrier. The common fuselage design + the big VTOL fan for the Marines resulted in a bigger fuselage than needed for everyone.

All true but here we are and there is no turning back from acquiring the F-35 nor should there be any attempt to abruptly stop procurement but I think there is a reasonable amount of room for a serious debate on whether or not to buy the full lot.

[brabus]

Which is what the chief is threatening to LM...fix your shit or I’ll rec to congress to cut the buy significantly and spend the money with Boeing. 

[Clark Griswold]

8 hours ago, brabus said:

Which is what the chief is threatening to LM...fix your shit or I’ll rec to congress to cut the buy significantly and spend the money with Boeing. 

This maybe related to that idea:

https://www.defensenews.com/smr/defense-news-conference/2019/09/04/controversial-changes-coming-soon-in-air-forces-next-budget-its-top-civilian-says/

Probably more aimed at older systems vice one in procurement but it's possible.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Clark Griswold