Air Force: Pilot yields wings after low flyover

[Herk Driver]

To continue to pick nits,... you must be 1000' above the highest obstacle within a 2000' horizontal radius.

The press box was more than likely not the highest obstacle within 2000'.

The stadium lights probably were.

If so, he was more than 984' too low.

The article gives some bad verbiage as to the rule. You state it correctly above. However, I have to assume the article is correct when quoting the AF report when it says "According to the investigation, the highest elevation of the stadium is at the northwest corner of the press box, which is 160 feet above ground level."

All things being equal, it doesn't really matter. He was too friggin low.

[Guest]

If so, he was more than 984' too low.

Momentary deviations are authorized, IMHBAO.

[Vetter]

All things being equal, it doesn't really matter. He was too friggin low.

Well, technically, he didn't hit the ground or anything attached to it. So, is there really a such thing as too low?

[Guest]

Well, technically, he didn't hit the ground or anything attached to it. So, is there really a such thing as too low?

Fuckin A.

[zrooster99]

Swing and a miss. You are supposed to be 1000 feet above the nearest obstacle. If he was 16 feet above the press box, he was 984 feet lower than he should have been.

Can you get that to me in a PPT?

[BQZip01]

Can you get that to me in a PPT?

no

[pawnman]

A very over-used cliche.

I've led dozens of flyovers. And I've done a lot better than "break even". Many perks have come with doing them. Some of them good, some of them fantastic.

Some of them were personal satisfaction, like leading Missing Man flyover for guys I knew.

Some were "materialistic" benefits.

And in each case... I was getting to fly. In a jet.

In fact, I usually was The Lead.

That ain't bad.

In any case,... I'll be sure to double check my altitude at the "target".

But I'll keep doing flyovers.

Can the fans even see you at FL600? I keed, I keed.

[C-21.Pilot]

I'll simply reply this way:

- If you know Maj Kopacek and believe this, then call him and get his side of what occurred.

- If you don't know him, then you are seriously mis-assessing him as an individual based on a very small sliver of info you've been given.

- NJP cases rarely tell the "true" story...especially for a guy who was days away from separating from the AF (and the AF knew they didn't have a career to wreck, yet still had a message to send to the rank-and-file)

BL: There's a lot about this story that you don't know, and your "assessment" of the situation reflects this. It's not any of my business to discuss those details, but it's important to know that this punishment was more for the benefit of the "Rest of the AF" than it was punishing Kopacek's actions.

Probably 95% of the BOps users don't know this guy from a hole in the wall. We also don't know Charlie Sheen, hilary clinton, etc. and I bet they are both a bunch of douchbags as well. As such, Maj Kopacek was used to set an example. Probably take heart from the C-17 Alaska incident, Bud Holland, etc....so be it.

No one is taken what he did and throwing judgement on his character or assessing him as an individual. I'm sure behind the lying to investigators (integrity first) and the deviation of known flight rules (excellence) he is an awesome officer and great dude.

Unfortunately, I or the other 99.69% of users don't know the full story...the investigation will tell all, and anything beyond that should be considered a Major and his peeps trying to CYA. Just my .02...

I wish I knew more about it - as I find it unfortunate that he was close to retirement.

Edited March 26, 2011 by C-21.Pilot

[matmacwc]

Probably 95% of the BOps users don't know this guy from a hole in the wall. We also don't know Charlie Sheen, hilary clinton, etc. and I bet they are both a bunch of douchbags as well. As such, Maj Kopacek was used to set an example. Probably take heart from the C-17 Alaska incident, Bud Holland, etc....so be it.

No one is taken what he did and throwing judgement on his character or assessing him as an individual. I'm sure behind the lying to investigators (integrity first) and the deviation of known flight rules (excellence) he is an awesome officer and great dude.

Unfortunately, I or the other 99.69% of users don't know the full story...the investigation will tell all, and anything beyond that should be considered a Major and his peeps trying to CYA. Just my .02...

I wish I knew more about it - as I find it unfortunate that he was close to retirement.

Not close to retirement, 1999 or 2000 commissioner. Not the most XXXXXXXXXXXX in the squadron, it's a fact jack.

[spudsmac]

Video

[HuggyU2]

Probably 95% of the BOps users don't know this guy from a hole in the wall. We also don't know Charlie Sheen,... ...douchbags as well.

Charlie Sheen: shot his fiancee, admitted to hospital at least once for overdosing, multiple domestic violence charges, felony charges filed, threatens a date to the point she locks herself in the bathroom, numerous interviews and very visible public presence as he continually shows his true nature. His father spent years badmouthing the US; never served his Country.

Maj Kopacek: never seen him, probably never heard an interview with him, read his quote on AF.com concerning the allegations on flying low. Fair amount of combat time flying the Viper serving his Country. Video shows he drug a 4 ship too low on a flyover.

Yep,... comparing Sheen to Kopacek seems real valid.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Huggyu2

[FallingOsh]

Video

Nailed the timing, though.

[pawnman]

The crowd seemed to enjoy it.

[pittsdriver]

I have flown with Maj Kopacek several times. One of the finest aviators and officers I have ever met. This guy would give you the shirt off his back, literally. One instance of bad judgement does not make someone a detriment to the community. However, in today's Air Force it sure seems like a witch hunt every time someone makes a mistake. Better hope none of you folks ever make a mistake or you could end up on the Air Force Crimes, I mean Times website too.

[C-21.Pilot]

Probably helps the RIF numbers as well....unfortunately.

[Day Man]

No one is taken what he did and throwing judgement on his character or assessing him as an individual. I'm sure behind the lying to investigators (integrity first) and the deviation of known flight rules (excellence) he is an awesome officer and great dude.

Unfortunately, I or the other 99.69% of users don't know the full story...the investigation will tell all, and anything beyond that should be considered a Major and his peeps trying to CYA. Just my .02...

I wish I knew more about it - as I find it unfortunate that he was close to retirement.

I think 99.69% of us here can agree that the core values, while theoretically valid, are just more buzz words for ROTC/USAFA/OTS/BMT kids to memorize and regurgitate pre-active duty. If it's not about OPR/EPR bullets, it's not a priority. Sad AF we live in...

[Guest]

But for fvck's sake, let's not pretend that the dude didn't knowingly, deliberately and completely scoff the rules in favor of shining his ass in front of thousands of people (with cameras) on his fini flight.

You don't know that. No one does. Maybe he got task saturated at the wrong time and let the altimeter drop from his crosscheck for a second.

The boss could be saying "Flying high performance aircraft is challenging. As we all saw here, a few seconds of distraction can be nearly fatal. We're thankful he has incredible skill and was able to correct his mistake and no one got hurt."

This isn't a fucking crime deserving of this type of punishment. You want to punish him somehow, fine...drop a letter of abomination in your desk droor. Taking his wings is a pussy move by a weak command. I don't care how high your horse is, it just isn't that big a deal.

Again, this ain't no puss game, he shacked the fucking timing and momentary deviations are authorized.

[Karl Hungus]

You don't know that. No one does. Maybe he got task saturated at the wrong time and let the altimeter drop from his crosscheck for a second.

The boss could be saying "Flying high performance aircraft is challenging. As we all saw here, a few seconds of distraction can be nearly fatal. We're thankful he has incredible skill and was able to correct his mistake and no one got hurt."

This isn't a fucking crime deserving of this type of punishment. You want to punish him somehow, fine...drop a letter of abomination in your desk droor. Taking his wings is a pussy move by a weak command. I don't care how high your horse is, it just isn't that big a deal.

Again, this ain't no puss game, he shacked the fucking timing and momentary deviations are authorized.

Shack. But that would take real leadership, of which there is very, very little left.

[Hacker]

call KIO on pretending that 8 fighter pilots didn't know they were way lower than they should have been.

There were 4 guys in the airplanes.

[ViperStud]

So what is the end result of all this? He was apparently getting out anyway, right? So not having an aeronautical rating in the AF will prevent him from picking up a reserve or guard gig. They would presumably have to send him to UPT again. Was he planning on that or was it going to be a clean cut?

What about on the civilian side? Assuming he got his commercial like we all did, he is still a commercial multi-engine pilot with 2069+ flight hours in turbine aircraft and maybe an ATP, right? Not like big blue can do anything about your civilian ratings. I would guess the bigger issue would be when the guys at Southwest ask about that flyby at the Hawkeyes game, and that is not really that AF's fault. Only an idiot would think something like this would stay under wraps nowadays, it was probably posted on youtube slightly after kickoff. I'm sure some of you guys have sat on interview boards with the majors; even if he had kept his wings how would this go over during the interview process?

The punishment is a joke and a sign of leadership with no real balls, that's for sure. But let's also stop with making excuses for the dude. I'll buy that he's a good guy and a solid pilot since some of the bros here are vouching for him. No solid pilot I know would be that low without knowing exactly what he was doing. Life is a series of calculated risks; he took a risk and lost, assuming he thought that a low flyby on a fini flight would not raise any eyebrows.

I just hope the knee-jerk response didn't wreck his plans for future employment.

[Crog]

I just hope the knee-jerk response didn't wreck his plans for future employment.

Not always, though he may have a disadvantage over this one currently flying for UPS.

Linky

[di1630]

I say good on the guy. He obviously was intentional, probably knew the risks, got caught, ops tested the system for the rest of us. I admire his spirit. Sounds like the type of guy I'd want on my side in war.

Back before the USAF was run by a bunch of pansies who would rather write rules to get promoted than fly planes, guys did stuff like that all the time. I try to keep in mind that the great pilots of the old days would shake their heads in dismay at today's AF.

For all the dudes rushing to judgement, you must be shocked at the thought of Chuck Yeager, Bob Hoover, Robin Olds, etc. who all would have been crushed in today's air force.

Anyone hear what 2,3,4 got for punishment?

[OverTQ]

The sheep are growing resentful of the sheep dogs again.

[Guest]

I truly don’t understand how you or anyone else could consider 984’+ low a “momentary deviation.” As someone that’s actually spent time rooting around at 100A, you of all people know how long it takes to descend there from 1000'. It is not "momentary."

Yes, I did spend a lot of time at low altitude. We referred to it as "a nominal 100'AGL" during the brief because we didn't want guys to be at 120' when they should be at 100' but were scared they would bust if they went below 100' during momentary deviations. You should hear the altitude alert going off frequently if you are doing it right.

As for guys descending below 1000 feet unintentionally...I've seen it so many times I can't even count them. We used to run jets into the ground (and each other) pretty frequently back in the day, often while holding at 500-1000' AGL at the IP...with three other people watching it happen. We ran jets into the ground pulling off strafe passes, during TLT SEM and looking over the shoulder for wingman during BSA sorties.

It doesn't take long at all to go from 1000' to 100' AGL. I don't know if you still brief the "Time to Die" chart during the LASDT upgrades but you might want to take a look at that. Introduce a slight descent during/before entering a turn and a look over the shoulder for whatever reason, slight overbank and boom goes the dynamite.

We didn't get CCIP 20 fucking years after the A-7 because the Big Blue was willing to spend money upgrading A-10 weapons delivery capability. You know what LASTE stands for. CCIP was a nice benefit that came with investing in something to try to keep guys from running into the ground so frequently.

You also know what terra ferma looks like at 100A versus 1000'. ...It looks slightly different, wouldn't you say?

It depends but yes. Again, not my point. Every person who has hit the ground also knew this and it didn't save their life. They made mistakes.

I came close many times myself. Really fucking close. Not on purpose. I do not believe I should have lost my wings over it and neither did any of my bosses, thankfully.

Besides the HUD, which consolidates the EGI hack, altimeter and airspeed all directly in front of him, you know how absurd it is to suggest that he “let the altimeter drop from his crosscheck.” What crosscheck?? We’re not talking about the difference between 800 and 1000’. Forget the altimeter....how about “Holy shit! We are WAY too low to those houses, roads, and giant football stadium.” What were they, blindfolded? If a fighter pilot cannot, looking outside, recognize a difference between 150A and 1000’, he needs to either get his eyes (and ears….does the T-38 have bitchin’ Betty?) checked or go find a cozy cubicle at Creech.

I guess you've never looked up and been surprised how low you were or that you had jumped into someone else's block? Everyone has. That's whay we have procedures/contracts to correct it once recognized.

How often did you come up initial 1000’ off altitude or miss DH by 1000’? If that’s the type of flying that counts as “momentary deviations” by fighter pilots, then God help us.

I missed altitudes in my time flying USAF airplanes. Not very often. Sometimes by a lot. I doubt I ever missed initial or DH by 1k feet but I have seen guys try to do it. Those are not the momentary deviations I am talking about here.

I cannot for a second picture your WUG telling you “Rainman, I got task saturated and went 1000’ below abort on my 45HAS pass” and you coming back “Well dude, flying high performance aircraft is challenging. But it’s all good….momentary deviations are authorized.”

“Rainman, you gave me block 16 and above for our night attacks, but I was cruising around at 15,000’ totally unrecognized for a few minutes.” “Ohh, that’s cool. I’m just thankful you have incredible skill and you were able to correct your mistake and no one got hurt.”

Actually, I did shit on guys for being too high when the attack was briefed at 100'. Sit in on a low altitude debrief at Nellis and all you hear is the GD bitching betty yelling "altitude altitude" "pull up pull up" from student gap to the fence out on every single tape. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen less than 50' on the radar altimeter, mine and others. It happens.

No, I didn't blow off abort altitudes. Ever. But I did see guys go through abort many times, even when they knew stepping to the jet that doing so would result in a taco. It happens.

No, I didn't blow it off when guys were out of their blocks but it happens to absolutely everyone. It has happened to you. We want guys to sing out when it happens and to admit it in the debrief. They will not do that if they think they're going to lose their wings over it.

Altitude restrictions are in place during all phases of flight for safety and deconfliction.

Noted. No argument.

It’s our job to recognize and adhere to them and it's not that difficult to do.

People do make mistakes.

If you think taking his wings for this is excessive, Ok, fair enough. But let’s not play make believe that experienced pilots didn’t know they were significantly lower than they were supposed to be, particularly in this case when being there put them extraordinarily close to the ground and thus in an easy position to recognize it.

I'm not playing make believe. In fact, I don't really know what happened here...no one does. I do think it is extreme to take someone's wings, they better really have fucked up so badly that you can never trust them to fly an airplane again. I know guys involved in FRAT that they definitely could've prevented if they had not made some mistakes (they were human) and they didn't lose their wings, so let's put things into perspective.

I think the boss had another option. Don't know if that option was appropriate here but he had another option.

I'm just sayin'...

[theat6bisasham]

Don't forget - if you didn't punish this guy hard (sts) then what stops the rest of the faips with maybe not as much skill from plowing into the stadium....?

He got what he wanted....he knew it.....you get what you deserve in life.