Should Drinking Age for Military Personnel Be Lowered to 18?

[Learjetter]

Do you have evidence or any data to back up this claim?

Only my learnin' on sociology while getting my Master's in Criminal Justice (much of it in data form like the UCR that SurelySerious posted). I'm a Dad with a 25 yr old and a 19 yr old ...and I've been a youth leader in various churches over the years....plus I was 18 once...then I was 21--many differences when I think about it. So, bottomline...& since I don't want to go do all the research to prove a very minor point...let's just call it a belief, to go along with the theory posted above.

[RogAir]

While they're at it they should require all 18 year old females to register for the draft just like the guys. It's funny that in all the feminist arguements about women in fighter cockpits and other plum assignments, they never argue for the 18 year females to register just like the men have to.

Edited April 1, 2011 by RogAir

[Herk Driver]

I cannot believe that you would suggest such a thing. [/sarcasm]

[afnav]

We were drinking on Keesler at 18 in '88. I don't know when they changed it up to 21.

[Jughead]

Yes. And not just for the military. You're telling me that in our society, 18 is considered old enough to make life-altering decisions about getting married, joining the military, voting, or buying a house...but not old enough to crack open a beer on Friday afternoon?

Bingo.

[BQZip01]

Some bases were still doing that in the '90's. I think Fort Gordan, GA still does.

Still allowed it at Andersen AFB until late 2010

When I was at AUAB, the drinking age was 18. As an Lt, I had to personally walk over to Personnel with a copy of the local regulations just so my 18 y.o. Amn could get a ration card (wouldn't take my word over the phone...or look up the reg himself)

While they're at it they should require all 18 year old females to register for the draft just like the guys. It's funny that in all the feminist arguements about women in fighter cockpits and other plum assignments, they never argue for the 18 year females to register just like the men have to.

2

You want equality? You have to take the good AND bad.

[BQZip01]

FWIW, I understand the rationale: if it is legal to drink at 18 on base, you WILL have a bunch of airmen who sponsor civilians onto the base just so they can get hammered. While that might be good for the morale of some, it causes friction with the locals who can't get on base and get smashed. Throw in the inevitable lawsuit and it's just easier to alter local regulations to comply with local civil law.

[Guest]

Do you have evidence or any data to back up this claim?

Tons of it. Google it yourself.

[Standby]

FWIW, I understand the rationale: if it is legal to drink at 18 on base, you WILL have a bunch of airmen who sponsor civilians onto the base just so they can get hammered. While that might be good for the morale of some, it causes friction with the locals who can't get on base and get smashed. Throw in the inevitable lawsuit and it's just easier to alter local regulations to comply with local civil law.

Easy: no mil ID (AD, retiree, dependent, etc...) = no booze. Next.

[Timbonez]

Tons of it. Google it yourself.

Wrong. If someone makes a claim, they are expected to provide the evidence.

ETA: That said, LJ answered my question adequately with his other response.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Timbonez

[BQZip01]

Easy: no mil ID (AD, retiree, dependent, etc...) = no booze. Next.

18 y.o. H.S. senior (a military dependent) invites his friends over and buys the booze at the Class 6. It's not just the purchase of alcohol that is an issue, it is consumption. Who do you blame? The parents? He's 18 and a legal adult.

[Standby]

18 y.o. H.S. senior (a military dependent) invites his friends over and buys the booze at the Class 6. It's not just the purchase of alcohol that is an issue, it is consumption. Who do you blame? The parents? He's 18 and a legal adult.

Now you are taking this into the "it depends" arena. I am not a legal dude (and common sense doesn't prevail in court), but I would say that the kid takes the hit. If he legally purchased the alcohol and provided it to a minor, then he is at fault. You can what-if the shit out of this situation and have 6-9 million different answers for each possible scenario. You can't honestly tell me that high school kids don't find ways to "Hey Mister" and get drunk with the current policy anyway. This thread isn't about letting 18 y/o high school dependents drink...it's about military personnel being able to drink at 18. I say that if you are currently serving, you should be allowed to get as tanked as you want. That includes the 17 y/o who needed parental consent to go to basic training and subsequently serve in the military.

[Getzen2]

Every argument here is about the legal driving limit. Here is what I've thought would work and make both parties happy. Make the legal drinking age 18, but keep the zero tolerance on driving till 21. If you want to drink at 18, hang up the keys. This would promote a habit pattern that would associate drinking with finding a way home. It would also keep the feds happy because the "kids" won't be on the federal roads with a beer in them till 21.

[Pancake]

Every argument here is about the legal driving limit. Here is what I've thought would work and make both parties happy. Make the legal drinking age 18, but keep the zero tolerance on driving till 21. If you want to drink at 18, hang up the keys. This would promote a habit pattern that would associate drinking with finding a way home. It would also keep the feds happy because the "kids" won't be on the federal roads with a beer in them till 21.

Lowering the drinking age to 18 and upping the driving age to 21 makes more sense to me than current laws. I'm curious how powerful MADD remains. I know they're a big proponent behind the 21 year drinking age, but I haven't heard or seen much from them in the past few years. What happened to the "Friends don't let friends drive drunk" ads?

Edited April 2, 2011 by Pancake

[pawnman]

18 y.o. H.S. senior (a military dependent) invites his friends over and buys the booze at the Class 6. It's not just the purchase of alcohol that is an issue, it is consumption. Who do you blame? The parents? He's 18 and a legal adult.

I'm 30. Who gets the blame if I go to the Class 6 and buy a bunch of booze, then distribute it to people who are under age? Oh, right, I do. So in your example, the 18-year-old would take the blame, with all the penalties that come with it.

[BQZip01]

I'm 30. Who gets the blame if I go to the Class 6 and buy a bunch of booze, then distribute it to people who are under age? Oh, right, I do. So in your example, the 18-year-old would take the blame, with all the penalties that come with it.

If they are 18, then they can drink on base (the constitution states that laws can't be that selective). Then you also have to consider if their sponsor takes a hit as well

[raimius]

If they are 18, then they can drink on base (the constitution states that laws can't be that selective). Then you also have to consider if their sponsor takes a hit as well

Which case do you base that on, or are you using the 14th Amendment as the basis of the Constitutionality of such an order?

[pawnman]

If they are 18, then they can drink on base (the constitution states that laws can't be that selective). Then you also have to consider if their sponsor takes a hit as well

Again, I'm a proponent of every 18-year-old having the ability to drink, or no 18-year-old being considered an adult period...and I tend to lean towards the letting 18-year-olds drink side.

That said, if your concern is some dependent kid getting his buddies drunk, and that's the reason people argue against allowing military members to drink on base...the simple fix is that only people with a CAC card, not a dependent ID, can buy alcohol at age 18.

Why can't the regulation be that restrictive? It's already been pointed out that drinking age on base is a WG/CC decision anyway. He could just as easily say no dependents can buy alcohol on base, or no one wearing a blue shirt can buy beer, etc. It's not a law, it's a local policy.

Edited April 4, 2011 by pawnman

[Boxhead]

Why can't the regulation be that restrictive? It's already been pointed out that drinking age on base is a WG/CC decision anyway. He could just as easily say no dependents can buy alcohol on base, or no one wearing a blue shirt can buy beer, etc. It's not a law, it's a local policy.

It can be. And the Dependants/civilians can't really be "arrested" either, as military cops "apprehend" only, and while those other folks may be detained, really all the base can do to folks not subject to the UCMJ is ban them from base. They can also call the civilian cops (stateside) to come bust them, but they don't come out every time, sometimes, they gotta just let them go. Granted, if the WG/CC actually puts them on the debarment letter, and they try to get on base again...then it's a federal offense and the Federal Judges are a tad strict on goofy crap like that to come across their desk.

This is kinda why they just match up with the civilian law...it gets muddy quick.

Edited April 4, 2011 by Boxhead

[pawnman]

It can be. And the Dependants/civilians can't really be "arrested" either, as military cops "apprehend" only, and while those other folks may be detained, really all the base can do to folks not subject to the UCMJ is ban them from base. They can also call the civilian cops (stateside) to come bust them, but they don't come out every time, sometimes, they gotta just let them go. Granted, if the WG/CC actually puts them on the debarment letter, and they try to get on base again...then it's a federal offense and the Federal Judges are a tad strict on goofy crap like that to come across their desk.

This is kinda why they just match up with the civilian law...it gets muddy quick.

True...but my point is, it doesn't take a lot of additional training to say to your store employees "If they are between 18 and 21, they need this kind of card to show they're active duty, not this other card for dependents". We already trust the store clerks not to sell to kids under 21 now...how hard is it to put a printout at the checkout counter detailing who can and can't buy alcohol, and let the AD folks buy beer, thus preventing some 18-year-old dependent from getting his high school buddies into trouble on base using his ID?

[OverTQ]

At Lowery in 1989, we had a beer vending machine in the barracks

[Gas Man]

I am currently deployed at base X. There is drinking available here. The night before I got here some dumbass drunk airman noticed a car with the keys in it and took it for a joyride around base ending up in the middle of a roundabout under a static display. The next night some dumbass drunk airman threw up in the hallway of the dorms and the maids wern't very happy when they had to clean it up so they reported it to the cops. The next night I was walking out of the chow hall and some dumbass drunk airman was leaning over the railing of the club puking his guts out in full view of everyone going into or out of the chow hall 20 feet away. Last night there were a group of dumbass drunk airman outside the dorms at 3am screaming at the top of their lungs some unintelligible babble for about 20 minutes and when they were asked to STFU they tried to start a fight with the poor bastard trying to get some sleep. Tonight there were about 5-6 dumbass drunk airman in the lobby of the dorms yelling and carrying on. They almost got into a fight in the lobby with some other drunk idiot when the N word came out.

Everyone of these incidents highlighted the fact that "Drinking is bad and causing problems". Any day they are gunna decide to shut off the booze for everyone. Even us professional drinkers. Never mind the fact that every one of the incidents were young airman. Little bastards can't hold their booze. If you can't drink like a man you shouldn't be able to drink at all.

As to 18 year olds drinking....... Hell no.

[pawnman]

I am currently deployed at base X. There is drinking available here. The night before I got here some dumbass drunk airman noticed a car with the keys in it and took it for a joyride around base ending up in the middle of a roundabout under a static display. The next night some dumbass drunk airman threw up in the hallway of the dorms and the maids wern't very happy when they had to clean it up so they reported it to the cops. The next night I was walking out of the chow hall and some dumbass drunk airman was leaning over the railing of the club puking his guts out in full view of everyone going into or out of the chow hall 20 feet away. Last night there were a group of dumbass drunk airman outside the dorms at 3am screaming at the top of their lungs some unintelligible babble for about 20 minutes and when they were asked to STFU they tried to start a fight with the poor bastard trying to get some sleep. Tonight there were about 5-6 dumbass drunk airman in the lobby of the dorms yelling and carrying on. They almost got into a fight in the lobby with some other drunk idiot when the N word came out.

Everyone of these incidents highlighted the fact that "Drinking is bad and causing problems". Any day they are gunna decide to shut off the booze for everyone. Even us professional drinkers. Never mind the fact that every one of the incidents were young airman. Little bastards can't hold their booze. If you can't drink like a man you shouldn't be able to drink at all.

As to 18 year olds drinking....... Hell no.

Your deployed base sounds way better than my deployed base.

[Gas Man]

Your deployed base sounds way better than my deployed base.

That's my point. I would like it to remain that way. I have played the Kandahar game, and the Deid, and Manas. This is a WAY better deal. I just don't want some dumb asses messing it up for everyone.

[BQZip01]

Which case do you base that on, or are you using the 14th Amendment as the basis of the Constitutionality of such an order?

The 14th Amendment. Please realize that the age which you are allowed to drink by Federal Law is 18. Only states and territories/districs restrict it further in order to get federal funds. Base commanders fall in line with the restriction outside their base by prohibiting sales to those under 21 in order to appease local officials. As shown, that can be repealed at any time (Laughlin AFB is a prime example).