Shut down Air War College

[Square]

I was catching up on some reading this morning and came across these posts. Might be of some interest, including the comments associated with the articles.

https://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/04/11/need_budget_cuts_we_probably_can_start_by_shutting_the_air_war_college

Response 1: https://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/04/12/gen_kane_s_response_assessing_the_air_war_college_is_a_matter_of_perspective

Response 2: https://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/04/14/pentagon_view_the_role_of_the_war_colleges_is_to_teach_military_professionals_0

Response 3: https://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/04/14/a_view_from_canada_on_the_air_war_college_judge_its_graduates_as_practitioners_not_

[SocialD]

While they're at it, kill ASBC and SOS...Talk about a joke, and waste of $$$$$!

Edited April 16, 2011 by SocialD

[pawnman]

While they're at it, kill ASBC and SOS...Talk about a joke!

2

[SocialD]

Also, if we're talking saving money, how much money would we save if we shut down the academies? Increase the number of ROTC/OTS students per year to make up the numbers. This would be what, one maybe two students per ROTC det? Paying a full ride scholarship at most colleges would be way cheaper than running the Academy! What do we really gain from the academies...especially with the students that punch at the end of their commitment?

Edited April 16, 2011 by SocialD

[SurelySerious]

What do we really gain from the academies...

Unless you went to MIT, Stanford, or USC for an engineering degree (or maybe a Harvard for fuzzy type degrees), a much better academic program.

[nsplayr]

Also, if we're talking saving money, how much money would we save if we shut down the academies? Increase the number of ROTC/OTS students per year to make up the numbers. This would be what, one maybe two students per ROTC det? Paying a full ride scholarship at most colleges would be way cheaper than running the Academy! What do we really gain from the academies...especially with the students that punch at the end of their commitment?

You're channeling Tom Ricks circa April 2009.

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

Link 4

He even talks about closing the war colleges in the third link.

I'm pretty sure we had a thread on this once too...

[Hacker]

So, which academic institute of higher learning will not teach AF leaders that they have to crush AF heritage to move forward? Which one will teach them to stop being a bunch of PC pussies and allow the ACTUAL warrior spirit to grow instead of being beaten into their perverted warrior-monk image?

That's where I want 'em to send our senior leaders after they close AWC.

Serious note: which academic institution has any concept of application of airpower? As retarded as AWC might be, it's still dedicated to singularly producing airpower leaders. Although I'm sure ERAU, UND, and Perdue think they'd be perfect replacements...just ask one of their grads!

[Pancake]

From Maj Gen Kane's response to Tom Rick's article in regards to AWC faculty:

None have "on-line" degrees or degrees from schools any reasonable person would place "at the bottom of the academic world."

You heard it straight from the commandant of AWC! On-line degrees equate to the "bottom of the academic world." Yet, the Air Force requires its officers to earn a master's for promotion to Lt Col (and largely a pre-req for IDE), with on-line programs as the only realistic option for anyone that deploys/works 10+ hours a day. I hope this article gets some traction. I can't wait for the backlash and subsequent double-speak about how our "on-line/bottom wrung" degrees are valuable to professional development and prepare us to be better leaders.

Maj Gen Kane's lengthy "tit-for-tat" response is a classic trap-door, providing more fuel to Tom Ricks' position.

Someone sound the tsunami sirens at AFPC. There's a really big wave called "end of 10-year commitment" headed their way, and they have no clue.

Edited April 16, 2011 by Pancake

[Champ Kind]

Wow, how's the view from that ivory tower in the cultured land of academia, General?

As someone that spent the last three years wasting my Sundays on an apprently academically-inferior MS in int'l relations, while my family did whatever while I did homework, I offer a sincere FU from the bottom of my heart.

[Pancake]

Wow, how's the view from that ivory tower in the cultured land of academia, General?

As someone that spent the last three years wasting my Sundays on an apprently academically-inferior MS in int'l relations, while my family did whatever while I did homework, I offer a sincere FU from the bottom of my heart.

2. Although I'm not sure we can even call his tower "ivory." Outside of the Air Force, an education from Air University and $1.50 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. His tower is more like those sofa cushion forts we all made as kids-"make believe."

After compulsory "corporate" education (SOS and ACSC), I'm a proponent of sending officers to civilian schools. The gained perspective is incredibly valuable for us and commingling with the civilian population might actually learn them somthin' too. In my experience, while school prestige doesn't equate to graduate competence, it does equate to credibility. The military maintains high confidence among civilians, but I have a feeling that it's slipping a bit-especially as funding for DoD programs is pitted against funding for entitlement programs.

Edited April 17, 2011 by Pancake

[disgruntledemployee]

I say open the can of worms and lets start eating.

Does anyone think that spending 1 whole year at Maxwell (ACSC/AWC) makes anyone a better leader?

I'll bet that the AFcan turn those schools into 10-12 week TDYs and get more bang for the buck. We could send more per year. Because (oooh look, I started my sentence with a preposition) shouldn't all our field graders be of the highest competence and thus attend such schools? Hell, if they cut out all the powerpoint, they easily save 9 months of everyone's life. And then they could stop wasting my time with worthless correspondence courses. I learn more about leadership with real life.

I'm tired of everyone thinking that these schools are the key to promotion. I've never seen a school take a dude and "produce" a good leader.

So there you go AF. Someone has presented a very crazy idea about PME. I bet is that AF does nothing--a very easy bet really, knowing that the AF has no stomach to change such an institution. That's the sad reality.

Out

[Vetter]

Who said anything about PME schools producing good leaders? The only school that produces good leaders is Weapons School...just ask any Weapons Officer.

[ClearedHot]

I number of years ago while a student in the ASG program I had the unfortunate and very unsatisfying opportunity to sit down and debate the pompous egomaniac that is Tom Ricks. His is single-minded in his belief that everything is done wrong, no matter who does it, it is how he makes his living. His hatred of the Air Force was BLATANTLY obvious as we discussed and debated ongoing operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. His myopic view of the world is limited to a boots on the ground approach and after two hours trying to engage it was readily apparent he does not have a strategic bone in his body. I am not a graduate of Air War College, but I dare say this idiot could most certainly benefit from completing the curriculum...if nothing else the PT program would help him shed the 80 pounds of girth that seems to be impairing his thought process.

[TrainerModel]

Get ######ed, the Air Force needs its University, just to say it has one. Cut the fat from elsewhere. Yea i went to the zoo, but my opinion still stands

[Standby]

What do we really gain from the academies...especially with the students that punch at the end of their commitment?

If you didn't go to the zoo, then you won't get it. I fail to see how an academy grad separating at 5 years is any different than a ROTC dude punching at the same time.

[SocialD]

1) Arrested development, 2) Females with an inflated sense of how attractive they are.

Valid!

You're channeling Tom Ricks circa April 2009.

Never heard of him before today.

I'm pretty sure we had a thread on this once too...

Ya, must have missed that one...

If you didn't go to the zoo, then you won't get it.

Copy...

I fail to see how an academy grad separating at 5 years is any different than a ROTC dude punching at the same time.

Because it costs about two to three times as much to send a kid through the academy. Not to mention the yearly operating costs of running the academy. We already have ROTC dets all over the country...seems like it would be cheaper. I don't know, maybe the dynamic of having guys from all three commissioning sources is good a good thing. But as nsplayr pointed out, this apparently has been discussed before, maybe this should be moved to that thread.

Edited April 17, 2011 by SocialD

[Smokin]

While at the torturous but requisite shoeflag recently, the instructors said that ASBC is already getting shut down.

[BQZip01]

While at the torturous but requisite shoeflag recently, the instructors said that ASBC is already getting shut down.

Heard this recently as well in two separate commands from reliable sources

[Guest CAVEMAN]

You can't have all the other services keep their school and the AF has nothing to brag about. That is not going to work. It is either you kill these schools across the services or do nothing. Some of the sister services actually have some pretty good PME schools. USMC Expeditionary Warfare School and the Army's Command and General Staff come to mind. I think PME's are great. The non-resident programs are virtually worthless for the most part. If they were not tied to promotion, very few people would care about them and that is just the simple truth.

[nsplayr]

While at the torturous but requisite shoeflag recently, the instructors said that ASBC is already getting shut down.

Nice, let's hope so. I never went (many navs didn't b/c there wasn't a huge break in the pipeline anywhere) and was sweating out having to go. They were non-vol'ing dudes from my squadron a few months ago to fill empty seats at that joke of a course. Not that I have a pregnant wife, pin on captain in a few months and a 1/1.2 dwell ratio...that's what I wanna spend my time at home doing, AF second-lieutenant bullshit!

I think the idea behind the whole "close the War Colleges" movement is that, for the cost, they do not provide a better education than civilian institutions and to the determent of those who attend, they breed a closed-minded, military-centric way of thinking. I have no idea if those claims are true and it's probably YMMV, but it's hard to argue that it would at least be cheaper to go the civilian route rather than running a whole institution internally. Same goes for the academies I guess...the burden is kind of on them to justify why the greater cost is worth it in terms of better products, a unique education, etc.

Either way, I don't expect either the academies or War Colleges to go away b/c why would the military want to give up prestigious institutions and funding just to save a buck for Uncle Sam? They wouldn't.

[Guest ashley]

Taking AWC now -- correspondence of course. It's awful.

Read a bunch of articles, write an essay, dump the info, never to be used again. It's a repeat of SOS, ACSC --- Sun Tzu, Warden's cocentric circles, all over again. But more. Much more. Pages and pages.

Not going to learn anything, but I will get to check that block.

Which is the purpose of AWC. Check the block. I vote we close it.

Edited April 17, 2011 by ashley

[pawnman]

Nice, let's hope so. I never went (many navs didn't b/c there wasn't a huge break in the pipeline anywhere) and was sweating out having to go. They were non-vol'ing dudes from my squadron a few months ago to fill empty seats at that joke of a course. Not that I have a pregnant wife, pin on captain in a few months and a 1/1.2 dwell ratio...that's what I wanna spend my time at home doing, AF second-lieutenant bullshit!

I think the idea behind the whole "close the War Colleges" movement is that, for the cost, they do not provide a better education than civilian institutions and to the determent of those who attend, they breed a closed-minded, military-centric way of thinking. I have no idea if those claims are true and it's probably YMMV, but it's hard to argue that it would at least be cheaper to go the civilian route rather than running a whole institution internally. Same goes for the academies I guess...the burden is kind of on them to justify why the greater cost is worth it in terms of better products, a unique education, etc.

Either way, I don't expect either the academies or War Colleges to go away b/c why would the military want to give up prestigious institutions and funding just to save a buck for Uncle Sam? They wouldn't.

So instead of giving up "prestigious", if useless, institutions, we'll instead cut the number of F-22s, RIF officers, and mothball aircraft. It's fine, I'm sure the next war will be fought with harshly worded academic papers.

[Karl Hungus]

Close the Air Force Academy and the Naval Academy. Have one United States Military Academy where graduates compete for whatever service/job they would like to enter. Expand ROTC programs and OTS. Have more folks entering the service without the "I've been brainwashed since I was 18 that if life isn't miserable then something is wrong" mentality. Have combined USAFA/USN/USMA football team kick Notre Dame's ass over and over again.

[Learjetter]

Close the Air Force Academy and the Naval Academy. Have one United States Military Academy where graduates compete for whatever service/job they would like to enter. Expand ROTC programs and OTS. Have more folks entering the service without the "I've been brainwashed since I was 18 that if life isn't miserable then something is wrong" mentality. Have combined USAFA/USN/USMA football team kick Notre Dame's ass over and over again.

Take it one step further...since we're the youngest service, and care nothing for heritage,, let's abolish all the departments and create a true joint US Defense Forces. One academy, one PME track, one acquisitions process, one doctrine, one uniform, one HQ.

[Danny Noonin]

It's fine, I'm sure the next war will be fought with harshly worded academic papers.

Nice.