RPA Crossflow Results

[Rusty Pipes]

This may have already been asked to the UAV guys on here, but what would you say is the retention rate for you guys? I know 3 guys who are coming up on their UPT ADSC this year that were non-vol'd to UAVs... all 3 are punching. 3 guys is obviously a pretty small group to get stats from, but even an anecdotal 100% punch rate doesn't bode well for those folks hoping to get back to an MWS.

I was deployed with an AMC Wing CV a few years ago who said he had a meeting with about 50 co-pilots looking for volunteers to fill a bunch of UAVs that got dropped to his Wing. He was told that he was supposed to tell them they would do a 3-4 year assignment and then come back to their MWS. Instead he told them he wasn't going to lie to them... if they went to UAVs even as a volunteer there was almost zero chance they were going to come back to a cockpit. At least he was honest...

[ellsworb]

Porkchop would probably know better, but, I know of exactly 0 pilots staying past their UPT commitment that have not already re-categorized or already took the bonus. Zero, zilch, none of em.

[billy pilgrim]

Every short term problem can be solved by creating a bigger long term problem.

[Guest]

Sample size?

[ellsworb]

Sample size?

Good point. Mine is probably 12 or 13. .not a lot.

[Karl Hungus]

Here's another personal observation.

Shack.

Lots of my peers on AD would KILL to get out and go to the ARC. None of my ARC friends are clamoring to get back on AD, bullshit sanctuary and rough Scott/ Ramstein/ Randolph furlough-protection staff tours aside.

[matmacwc]

I knew a few ARC/ANG dudes that got back into AD, some were to pin on LTC, some others to get that gravy 20 year paycheck. All in all, I don't know many.

[Guest]

Shack.

Lots of my peers on AD would KILL to get out and go to the ARC. None of my ARC friends are clamoring to get back on AD, bullshit sanctuary and rough Scott/ Ramstein/ Randolph furlough-protection staff tours aside.

I knew a few ARC/ANG dudes that got back into AD, some were to pin on LTC, some others to get that gravy 20 year paycheck. All in all, I don't know many.

I know lots of guys who have gone back on AD from the ARC. Several made O-6.

It is not a one way door.

Things have changes rather significantly on the AD side in the last 5.

I don't say this to rub my AD comrades' nose in the apparant fact things are more quickly deteriorating on that side, but only to say that their complaints are valid and things need to change. It's frustrating to see how easily parts of AD culture could be changed to make quality of life so much better if only thier leadership had the courage to squash the BS, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

With that, I wholeheartedly agree. Most of my close friends on AD are O-5 and above and they are frustrated but trying to do what is right. I also have many ARC friends (O-4 and above) who are also extremely frustrated. None of these guys are the complaining types. In fact, quite the opposite.

That said, the dismay among my retired friends is universal. I can't even count how many "Have you seen this bullshit!?" email chains among retired O-5s to O-9s I have read in the past couple years.

[OL Patch]

That said, the dismay among my retired friends is universal. I can't even count how many "Have you seen this bullshit!?" email chains among retired O-5s to O-9s I have read in the past couple years.

As one of those crusty retired dudes, I agree 100%. There is some serious head scratching going on and quite a few phone calls and emails to AD 0-6s and above asking WTFO?

Edited May 25, 2012 by OL Patch

[BitteEinBit]

I really want to be positive and say things are going to change for the better soon (soon being a year or two). I just think it is a little too late for dudes on the fence. Nothing against Gen Schwartz personally....he is a brilliant man... but he's a manager at a time we need leadership. By leadership, I don't mean managing beans, running marathons and showing how many Master's degrees you can accumulate. There is a distinct difference between management and leadership and right now we need good leadership at the top because morale is shit right now across the board...and anyone who doesn't see it is probably part of the problem. It just seems to me that people tolerate it because there is a golden egg (plated, not solid) at the end of 20 years of service and people are just in job preservation mode right now. No one can offer any degree of change or logical thought without sacrificing job security. The priority has been all beans and bullets and less people. We need a better mix to genuinely focus a little more on people.. Hopefully, that is about to change...and just to try to keep it on topic...it will get better for the non-vol RPA guys. Cheers!

Sorry for e thread hijack and ramble...I'm already sailing with the capt and his tennissee cousin jack...I'll fix my incomplete thoughts tomorrow. Sail on!

[guineapigfury]

Hopefully, that is about to change...and just to try to keep it on topic...it will get better for the non-vol RPA guys. Cheers!

Sorry for e thread hijack and ramble...I'm already sailing with the capt and his tennissee cousin jack...I'll fix my incomplete thoughts tomorrow. Sail on!

Of course it will get better. We'll go back to real airplanes or go work for someone else. Either would be an improvement over the current situation.

[ellsworb]

Of course it will get better. We'll go back to real airplanes or go work for someone else. Either would be an improvement over the current situation.

+1

[Guest]

...and quite a few phone calls and emails to AD 0-6s and above asking WTFO?

Word.

[Jughead]

As one of those crusty retired dudes, I agree 100%. There is some serious head scratching going on and quite a few phone calls and emails to AD 0-6s and above asking WTFO?

Word.

Since "grassroots" doesn't really work in a military structure, this sort of back-channel discussion is the only way I think any pressure will be brought to bear (if ever); good on you guys for that.

Curious: what sorts of replies do you guys get from the O-6 to O-9 types to that question...? I assume anyone with whom you correspond on a "WTFO" basis is someone you would not classify as a Kool-Aid drinker; so who are the Kool-Aid drinkers, and how have we gotten here? Any positive outlooks in those conversations...?

[Guest]

I can only speak for myself when I say my friends want to make it better. Genuinely.

They also know how to pick their battles...oops, did it again!

What I mean is that they learned two important things along the way...when to notch and when come out of the notch with flares.

Failing to learn when you must notch is fatal, as is failing to learn to time your exit from the notch.

Notching for everything allows the "enemy" to use acqusition radar as a weapon, which is a fail.

However, going into the notch can make one appear to be a "Kool-Aid drinker" to those with inop RWR.

So it depends..."Kool-Aid drinker" is a matter of perspective.

Does that clear it up for you?

[Danger41]

I can only speak for myself when I say my friends want to make it better. Genuinely.

They also know how to pick their battles...oops, did it again!

What I mean is that they learned two important things along the way...when to notch and when come out of the notch with flares.

Failing to learn when you must notch is fatal, as is failing to learn to time your exit from the notch.

Notching for everything allows the "enemy" to use acqusition radar as a weapon, which is a fail.

However, going into the notch can make one appear to be a "Kool-Aid drinker" to those with inop RWR.

So it depends..."Kool-Aid drinker" is a matter of perspective.

Does that clear it up for you?

I'm sure that cleared it up beautifully for the UPT stud who just read that and his brain exploded. He's spot on though.

Rainman's kool aid manifesto for dummies:

Notch = Leave/Back off from a fight.

Why using acquisition radar is a fail = The possibility of a threat to you prevents you from acting.

Standing by for spears from the peanut gallery.

[Jughead]

So it depends..."Kool-Aid drinker" is a matter of perspective.

Does that clear it up for you?

Partially.

"Playing the game" can be a result of Kool-Aid, or of picking one's battles/notching. Got it. FWIW, for a simple example, I have a useless master's and complete PME of questionable utility; I prefer to think of these in the latter category rather than the former.

As an O-5 who's seen his last promotion, though, I'm not in a position to change anything above the squadron level (and while I enjoy a certain amount of immunity, the inertia is often overwhelming even there). O-6s, and certainly GOs, have correspondingly higher levels of influence, particularly those who are still upwardly mobile.

I guess the larger point of my question was, what sort of response (what's the tone of the response), if any, do those folks have to the "crust retired guy / WTFO" email? I take it on faith that they genuinely care--no argument/question there. But, do they hold out hope to make a difference??

[brickhistory]

And yet the situation (USAF-wide not just on RPAs) continues to deteriorate.

Hmmm, kool-aid or defensive, either way, it isn't getting fixed. There's some folks in charge who are letting it happen/encouraging it by not stopping buffoonery.

[Guest]

But, do they hold out hope to make a difference??

Yes.

[OL Patch]

But, do they hold out hope to make a difference??

Yes.

[Jughead]

Yes.

Yes.

Good to hear x2. May it turn out to be the case!!

[murdocjxx]

Do non-rated people or even NAVs who cross flow into RPA as pilots get pilot wings?

[nrodgsxr]

Do non-rated people or even NAVs who cross flow into RPA as pilots get pilot wings?

no they get 18X wings

[herkbum]

no they get 18X wings

What do they look like?

[JPStryker]

What do they look like?

This should be good...