RIF

[USAF Pilot]

Got the message today around 1730L...RIF names were released to my Sq.

Initial look seemed to match the VSP eligibility year groups. I did recognize names that applied for VSP.

I was on the list. Didn't apply for VSP.

Good luck to us all!

03' 11M

[nrodgsxr]

I wouldn't get your hopes up....

[Herk Driver]

If you were eligible for VSP, you are eligible for the RIF; except for the JAG and some other AFSC in certain year groups which they allowed enough VSP takers to get out.

The accountability date just hit so they are putting out the list by senior rater which determines who actually writes/signs your RRF (matters if you are or just did a PCS).

[chim richalds]

Air Force: "Your VSP request is denied based on critically manned career fields, now, prepare a RRF to compete to stay in." The fact that we all have to waste time on this needs to be exposed at the highest levels.

Edited April 30, 2011 by chim richalds

[Prozac]

If you are a flying squadron commander, here is a chance to show some backbone. Refuse to waste your people's time here. We know now that flyers are not going to be RIF'd, so send a message to the Air Staff. Of course, I predict that there will be a total of zero instances of this happening as there aren't too many out there willing to fall on a sword. Still, do the next bets thing; instruct your officers and execs to spend no more than 15 minutes per package. We have better sh-t to do.

[BQZip01]

Who's got this list? I'm at language school now and don't feel like wasting time to prove my worth to the AF. So, even if we didn't apply to VSP we still have to fill this crap out?

I'm at PME and, yes, we still have to fill this crap out

[KennyB]

Although they didn't release any 03-05 pilots for VSP, it's still likely they'll cut the fat for those year groups (those w/tragic UCMJ afflictions). I'm thinking a few from the bottom 10%ish will still get RIFed.

Edited April 30, 2011 by kenblankenship

[pawnman]

Although they didn't release any 03-05 pilots for VSP, it's still likely they'll cut the fat for those year groups (those w/tragic UCMJ afflictions). I'm thinking a few from the bottom 10%ish will still get RIFed.

So instead of voluntarily separating a few more of the 540 who applied, we'll instead force out people who want to stay? Awesome. What a great plan.

My prediction: not even 1% of rated officers will be cut, and those who are will surprise no one (DUI, fraternization, multiple Q-3s, etc).

[KennyB]

So instead of voluntarily separating a few more of the 540 who applied, we'll instead force out people who want to stay? Awesome. What a great plan.

My prediction: not even 1% of rated officers will be cut, and those who are will surprise no one (DUI, fraternization, multiple Q-3s, etc).

Not saying it's a great plan, but if you're a VSP/RIF eligible officer with an Article 15, you probably saw the RIF writing on the wall and attempted to VSP. If I was picking names, I sure wouldn't pay someone VSP to separate when we can 'fix the glitch' at the RIF board. That then leads into Vetter's argument from the VSP thread about which option (VSP with earlier sep date v. RIF with later sep date) is more cost efficient. Maybe it's a wash in the end.

That being said, I know of at least one officer with an Art. 15 who was allow to VSP in 2006. Never say never I guess.

[Herk Driver]

So instead of voluntarily separating a few more of the 540 who applied, we'll instead force out people who want to stay? Awesome. What a great plan.

My prediction: not even 1% of rated officers will be cut, and those who are will surprise no one (DUI, fraternization, multiple Q-3s, etc).

I'm with Ken on this one. Not saying it's a great plan, but...my $.02 added below.

I've seen all across these boards how ALL the good people get out and ALL that's left are the riff raff and that's who you are left with for commanders and leadership. Well, the powers that be are trying to get rid of the riff raff and lots of what I'm hearing is how I should have been allowed to get out of my commitment early and get paid to do it.

I don't know...maybe if you only have 5-10% to get rid of and you think that you may have that many with quality force issues then I'm all for getting rid of the ash and trash instead of the people that still have something to contribute; whether they think they were entitled to VSP or not. I also don't think that many 11/12's will be let go with the RIF, but to suggest that an RFF not be accomplished or be minimally done would only invite the BS after the RIF when people actually did get booted since their paperwork looked like shit compared to everyone else. The announcement for the RIF said that the board is not looking at AFSC targets so whether AFSC is masked or not, I don't know, but there are no quotas. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few surprises to go along with the more "obvious" RIF choices that you mention.

However, the math isn't adding up for me. Total to separate equals what ~2K to 2.5K? So VSP =300 plus the FAQs A1 (?) just put out says another ~300-ish through the RIF. Are they going to get another 1.4K to 1.9K through SERBs of O-5s and O-6s and retirements? That's a lot of passed over O-5/6's that are just hanging around. I know a few, but I also know several that met the last round of the SERB and therefore are not eligible this time around. Some of them are still around and others are retiring or will be shortly. Maybe the numbers add up, but I'm not seeing it.

[Karl Hungus]

I'm with Ken on this one. Not saying it's a great plan, but...my $.02 added below.

I've seen all across these boards how ALL the good people get out and ALL that's left are the riff raff and that's who you are left with for commanders and leadership. Well, the powers that be are trying to get rid of the riff raff and lots of what I'm hearing is how I should have been allowed to get out of my commitment early and get paid to do it.

I don't know...maybe if you only have 5-10% to get rid of and you think that you may have that many with quality force issues then I'm all for getting rid of the ash and trash instead of the people that still have something to contribute; whether they think they were entitled to VSP or not. I also don't think that many 11/12's will be let go with the RIF, but to suggest that an RFF not be accomplished or be minimally done would only invite the BS after the RIF when people actually did get booted since their paperwork looked like shit compared to everyone else. The announcement for the RIF said that the board is not looking at AFSC targets so whether AFSC is masked or not, I don't know, but there are no quotas. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few surprises to go along with the more "obvious" RIF choices that you mention.

People aren't necessarily pissed that they're not being let out early and getting paid to do so... they're pissed that they were lied to and have now shown their cards. People can deny that that will be a player (the old "hopefully you have a good commander..." line), but it WILL be a player for a lot of people. A lot of this could have been avoided if they would have told the truth from day 1: rated folks with any meaningful ADSC remaining would have zero chance of getting approved VSP and are going to have zero chance of a RIF provided they don't have some egregious UCMJ violation. People would still be pissed at AD for the same things, but at least they wouldn't have shown their cards for no reason. The fact that the DoD/ Air Staff/ AFPC/ whoever didn't realize they'd get so many rated applications speaks volumes about how out of touch they are.

However, the math isn't adding up for me. Total to separate equals what ~2K to 2.5K? So VSP =300 plus the FAQs A1 (?) just put out says another ~300-ish through the RIF. Are they going to get another 1.4K to 1.9K through SERBs of O-5s and O-6s and retirements? That's a lot of passed over O-5/6's that are just hanging around. I know a few, but I also know several that met the last round of the SERB and therefore are not eligible this time around. Some of them are still around and others are retiring or will be shortly. Maybe the numbers add up, but I'm not seeing it.

Agreed. 600 does not equal 2500. Should the non-rated folks be terrified? Did the AF lie about the total # of officers it needs to get rid of as well? Will be interesting.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

If you are a flying squadron commander, here is a chance to show some backbone. Refuse to waste your people's time here. We know now that flyers are not going to be RIF'd, so send a message to the Air Staff. Of course, I predict that there will be a total of zero instances of this happening as there aren't too many out there willing to fall on a sword. Still, do the next bets thing; instruct your officers and execs to spend no more than 15 minutes per package. We have better sh-t to do.

Granted this is a 100% pedestrian perspective on this, but I wouldn't bank on "calling AFPC's bluf". VSP and RIF are two different animals, and while someone may not have been eligible to VOLUNTEER to leave (you know, the V in VSP) that doesn't mean that someone from a given non VSP eligible group isn't eligible to be included in a RIF. Telling them to pound sand when a RIF order comes down probably won't be too effective at retaining guys that should be retained.

[Learjetter]

However, the math isn't adding up for me. Total to separate equals what ~2K to 2.5K? So VSP =300 plus the FAQs A1 (?) just put out says another ~300-ish through the RIF. Are they going to get another 1.4K to 1.9K through SERBs of O-5s and O-6s and retirements? That's a lot of passed over O-5/6's that are just hanging around. I know a few, but I also know several that met the last round of the SERB and therefore are not eligible this time around. Some of them are still around and others are retiring or will be shortly. Maybe the numbers add up, but I'm not seeing it.

My guess to fix the apparent math problem is: accessions.

[Prozac]

Ok, I'll concede a few have made some good points wrt CCs giving the finger to the RIF process, but goddamnit there has got to be a better way than creating thousands of unnecessary man hours. Why not let the decision be made at the Wing level? Give WG/CCs a % they must meet and let them run the program as they see fit. They're more likely to respond to the individual concerns and requirements of their commanders.

[pawnman]

I'm with Ken on this one. Not saying it's a great plan, but...my $.02 added below.

I've seen all across these boards how ALL the good people get out and ALL that's left are the riff raff and that's who you are left with for commanders and leadership. Well, the powers that be are trying to get rid of the riff raff and lots of what I'm hearing is how I should have been allowed to get out of my commitment early and get paid to do it.

I don't know...maybe if you only have 5-10% to get rid of and you think that you may have that many with quality force issues then I'm all for getting rid of the ash and trash instead of the people that still have something to contribute; whether they think they were entitled to VSP or not. I also don't think that many 11/12's will be let go with the RIF, but to suggest that an RFF not be accomplished or be minimally done would only invite the BS after the RIF when people actually did get booted since their paperwork looked like shit compared to everyone else. The announcement for the RIF said that the board is not looking at AFSC targets so whether AFSC is masked or not, I don't know, but there are no quotas. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few surprises to go along with the more "obvious" RIF choices that you mention.

However, the math isn't adding up for me. Total to separate equals what ~2K to 2.5K? So VSP =300 plus the FAQs A1 (?) just put out says another ~300-ish through the RIF. Are they going to get another 1.4K to 1.9K through SERBs of O-5s and O-6s and retirements? That's a lot of passed over O-5/6's that are just hanging around. I know a few, but I also know several that met the last round of the SERB and therefore are not eligible this time around. Some of them are still around and others are retiring or will be shortly. Maybe the numbers add up, but I'm not seeing it.

Maybe...although as you say, the good guys are getting out at their commitment points anyway. If anyone doesn't think the 500ish people who applied for VSP and were denied are even more solidified in their desire to punch on their ADSC date, they are sorely mistaken. Further, if the goal was "keep the good people in, throw the terrible ones out", why offer a VSP at all? I thought it was all about the total numbers anyway. At least, that's what SECAF put out there.

If anyone thinks that denying VSP for those guys is going to keep them in the service past their ADSC, you're sorely mistaken. They'll be real lucky not to get thrown out in a couple years as passed-over captains who couldn't get an in-residence SOS slot or another upgrade because they aren't "team-players"...remember how pilots who didn't sign on for the pilot bonus and the additional ADSC were treated in the not-too-distant past? How much worse will it be for someone who actively TRIED to get out and failed? Congratulations, you just made permanent snacko, but at least the squadron's manning number look good. Oh well, someone had to soak up that ALO bill, right?

Disclaimer: I didn't put in for VSP...but I also didn't spend more than about an hour on my RRF form either.

[ThreeHoler]

Ok, I'll concede a few have made some good points wrt CCs giving the finger to the RIF process, but goddamnit there has got to be a better way than creating thousands of unnecessary man hours. Why not let the decision be made at the Wing level? Give WG/CCs a % they must meet and let them run the program as they see fit. They're more likely to respond to the individual concerns and requirements of their commanders.

I'm going to go with "legal issues" for this. If they allow for each CC to make their own program/selections without a standardized process, they open themselves for a lot of legal problems. Same reason why we have such a fantastic OPR system...can't create a document that hurts someone's feelings if they suck at life...

[Guest]

Hyperbole abounds.

[jrobe]

So '03 year group. PRF and RRF at the same time??? hmmmm.

[pawnman]

So '03 year group. PRF and RRF at the same time??? hmmmm.

Should be easy enough. Basically the same form, right?

[epsilon]

A little help:

I just looked at the .ppt web presentation on AFPCs website about the RIF. Somewhere it says that those with less than one year time in grade by 19 APR 11 are ineligible for the RIF.

I was commissioned Dec 2000.

I pinned on Maj 1 Oct 2010.

Am I reading it right that I'm ineligible since I've got less than a year as an 0-4 by the 19 APR 11 date?

I have little to no support at DLI here in Washington so I'm trying to get answers.

Thanks

[BQZip01]

A little help:

I just looked at the .ppt web presentation on AFPCs website about the RIF. Somewhere it says that those with less than one year time in grade by 19 APR 11 are ineligible for the RIF.

I was commissioned Dec 2000.

I pinned on Maj 1 Oct 2010.

Am I reading it right that I'm ineligible since I've got less than a year as an 0-4 by the 19 APR 11 date?

I have little to no support at DLI here in Washington so I'm trying to get answers.

Thanks

Your rationale sounds fine to me.

[Kikuchiyo]

I was at a rated manning conference last week. We got a briefing on VSP and the RIF from AFPC and HAF/A1PP, Personnel Policy. This is just a reporting of what was said.

A1PP is the OPR for the force management initiatives, the VSP, RIF, and the rated recall, among others. At the start of the brief, the A1PP O-6 admitted that it was not made clear that not everyone who applied for VSP would be approved. She said she takes the blame for not making that clear.

On the difference between the VSP and the RIF, approvals for VSP were based on what "best met the needs of the AF." VSP was objective, using numerical criteia. The RIF will be subjective, giving "special consideration to critical skills," applying the whole-person concept, and looking at quality. It's a reverse promotion board, taking those with Article 15s and other issues off the bottom.

The reason they didn't know how much ADSC they'd be able to waive for VSP approvals beforehand was that it was based on who, and how many, applied. If very few applied, but they all had large ADSCs remaining, the amount waived would have been greater. If lots of people applied, and many had little or no ADSC remaining, they wouldn't have to waive much. The cost of the ADSC waiver (in lost man-days) was one of the numerical criteria mentioned above. As it ended up, they waived about 6 months of ADSC for VSP approved rated members.

There were a total of about 900 airmen who applied for VSP, about 850 of which had their CC's concurrence. About 540 of the total were rated. About 300 total airmen were approved. 69 of those approved were rated. Most of those not approved had larger ADSCs remaining, long DEROS' remaining, or other quantifiable reasons.

The RIF will separate about another 300. No, 300 + 300 doesn't equal 2200. But there are other, ongoing programs, including (but not limited to) the other Force Management boards, Blue to Green, Palace Chase, Limited ADSC Waiver, and the coming O-5 and O-6 SERBs.

You may possibly see a targeted Palace Chase for certain rated AFSCs. Rated are currently excluded from Palace Chase, but there are certain areas that the Guard and Reserves are really hurting in, and in which the AD is overmanned. A1 is looking to balance the manning between the AD and ARC within those career fields. More to follow after further detailed analysis.

[Guest]

But there are other, ongoing programs, including (but not limited to)...Limited ADSC Waiver...

I remember when they did this back in the early 90s. A free pass to any pilot that wanted to go. A good friend of mine got out a couple days after pinning on Capt and he was separated in less tha 30 days from the time he raised his hand. He got a job w/AA befroe he was even signed out. The airlines were hiring as fast as guys could show up...most guys were getting multiple offers and were deciding what airline they wanted to work for. The airlines were interviewing guys who still had years on their ADSCs because the CEOs were invited to meet with the big guns at Corona and were told they could take anyone they wanted because the USAF had a manning crisis on our hands...called the peace dividend.

At the very same time I had finished my UPT ADSC and was being told that if I didn't sign my bonus paperwork (back in the day of $12k bonus to the 14 yr point) I would be grounded. They were fond of calling it the "feet on the ramp" bonus signing policy. I think they were also offering VSP and 15 yr retirements at the same time. I had friends who had taken the bonus, half up front, who then turned around and took VSP 18 mo later when they got an airline offer and they never had to pay back a cent.

No shit.

It doesn't have to make sense. It could happen. Timing is everything.

The USAF is scrambling hard and they are getting pressure to fix things fast. Crazy shit happens when these planets align. Be ready to make a decision or have one forced upon you.

[Skitzo]

So why generate all this workload with an RRF, if you have a UIF / Article 15 / Multiple Q-3s and you are in the targeted year groups you are out.

[KennyB]

So why generate all this workload with an RRF, if you have a UIF / Article 15 / Multiple Q-3s and you are in the targeted year groups you are out.

I'm not sure the multi-Q3s will play into the RIF. I'm sure you know people who are not great in the plane but are good officers. I'm not saying that's ideal, but it's reality. These people still serve a function in the massive bureaucracy to which we belong. Those officers who should be updating their civilian resumes are trying to creatively hide an Art. 15 from their potential employer.

That brings up a good question... would the private sector really care about an Art. 15 if the member received an Honorable Discharge?