Boss, I quit...

[matmacwc]

BL: There's one thing a T-6, T-38, MC-12, MQ-1, MQ-9, Army Humvee, and a desk all have in common: none of them are fighters. Strangely enough, fighter pilots want to fly fighters (for at least a fair amount of their career). They're not being allowed to so they're jumping ship. Questions?

Yes.

[RTB]

It's not being able to fly fighters, nor being presented with anything promising (flying or otherwise) on the horizon unless you're one of the chosen few. ....Gambling is a favorite pastime of fighter pilots, so most dudes know when to fold a shitty hand.

Could not agree more. This is the fundamental issue.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

If your SQ/CC isn't drawing a very clear line between his mission-hacking, skilled IPs and his unskilled, repeat failure safety risks...he's ing up as a SQ/CC. Period dot.

Maybe, but more often that not that's the way it's worked out in reality. One great example...I know a guy who got Q3'd in the Herk and never made IP in the C-21 (that says a lot), but did a great job as the CC's exec, and he made off with strats and a school slot. Other guys who were awesome IP/EPs but avoided the exec shop were lumped in with the rest of the pack.

You're deluding yourself if you think anyone really cares that much about what's in a 11/12X's FEF anymore. Seems to me the FEF only matters when it comes to applying to the 89th or something like that. True, really ugly FEFs usually pull someone down, but mediocre or below-average FEFs have hardly no effect on a rated officer's ability to get promoted.

[Pancake]

It's weird to me that Shoe Flag and/or Masters degree woes rank so high on the list. Granted, the requirement to do PME twice is ridiculous, as is the requirement to do a Masters in order to be competitive to get another. I've endured both and can attest to the pain in the dick they both were. That said, it seems trivial in light of the two main developments that have hit the fighter community recently, the first being the lack of opportunity for fighter pilots to actually fly fighters, reference TAMI-21, multiple ALFA tours, RPAs, non-flying deployments, 365 TDYs, limited (sometimes zero) opportunity for TX back to the jet, etc. etc.

I'm sitting here checking out the fighter assignments page for the various MWSs and it's amazing how the answers to Gen Welsh's puzzling dilemma are already written here in plain English, black and white, for all to see. I cut/pasted some highlights as I read along. ...and I quote, vebatim:

BL: There's one thing a T-6, T-38, MC-12, MQ-1, MQ-9, Army Humvee, and a desk all have in common: none of them are fighters. Strangely enough, fighter pilots want to fly fighters (for at least a fair amount of their career). They're not being allowed to so they're jumping ship. Questions?

AFPC routinely tries to use smoke and mirrors to convince a dude who a) hasn't flown a fighter for years, b) won't fly a fighter for years to come, or c) probably won't fly a fighter ever again that he's still a "fighter asset." It's the same bullshit they try to use to brainwash a finance officer into thinking he's a "warrior." It's a bald-face lie and anyone not in complete denial would rather just call a spade a spade and reconsider their options.

The second reason guys are jumping, and it goes hand-in-hand with the first, is the long-term forecast. Again, from the fighter assignments page:

BL: Non-patch, non selects are starring at a ######ing dead end road. The growing impression is that the Air Force, especially as it downsizes, is putting all its eggs in one basket, and you had better be a WIC grad, SOS DG, CGO of the century, Wing Exec who is masters complete by your Major's board or else you can forget about it. Leadership constantly encourages career broadening but AFPC, at their own addmission, is typically unable to spare you unless you're a school select/grad. Likewise, they're unable to bring you back to the jet unless you're a school grad. What you're left with is a handful of golden children lined up for fighter command and a slew of passed over Majors on their third ALFA praying that they remain exempt from the selective continuation drama, and that their pension doesn't get deferred to age 60. ...Not an attractive proposition for many.

*Edit to wrap up my original thought, which is that I think guys citing their online masters from TUI as causal to the exodus are missing the forest for the trees. It's not being able to fly fighters, nor being presented with anything promising (flying or otherwise) on the horizon unless you're one of the chosen few. ....Gambling is a favorite pastime of fighter pilots, so most dudes know when to fold a shitty hand.

Did somebody sit SOF today???

Probably the best post ever on BO.net...

Edited July 1, 2011 by Pancake

[Chuck17]

Did somebody sit SOF today???

Probably the best post ever on BO.net...

"2" - Nice work Hoss.

"THAT'S how you De-BATE!"

Chuck

[onetail]

...

Shack Hoss.

Wish I could say I wasn't warned. I vaguely remember the F-16 Porch road show in '03 as a Lt. Two quotes stood out. "If you're sitting in this room as a CGO there's a very good chance you will get a Pred assignment in your career." and "If you want to fly for 20 years join the Guard or Reserves." The brief was widely scoffed, but in hindsight I don't think a fighter porch has ever been more frank. Almost 8 years ago, it means someone at AFPC once upon a time could read the tea leaves.

[Danny Noonin]

*Edit to wrap up my original thought, which is that I think guys citing their online masters from TUI as causal to the exodus are missing the forest for the trees. It's not being able to fly fighters, nor being presented with anything promising (flying or otherwise) on the horizon unless you're one of the chosen few. ....Gambling is a favorite pastime of fighter pilots, so most dudes know when to fold a shitty hand.

I agree with your "causal" assessment, but I think maybe you're missing the context in which the masters, PME, etc. issue is relevant.

Gen Welsh and some others are trying to figure out what they can do to reduce an exodus. There is zero chance of adding fighter cockpits, reducing RPA requirements, or anything like that. It's just not gonna happen any time soon. So in terms of fixing the problem, the major cause of the fighter pilot exodus (lack of fighter cockpits) is unfixable in the current budget/world environment. It's simply outside of anyone's control right now.

What the 4-stars have the power to do is make life less painful for guys--for everyone, not just fighter guys. They can return sanity to the officer/career side of the world (vice tactical/flying). If the AF can once again emphasize advancement based on leadership and job performance over pure square filling, then it's at least a step in the right direction after about 10 years of going the wrong way.

By the way, this is certainly not the first mass-exodus of fighter pilots in AF history. For all of the other ones, there was no lack of fighter cockpits. There were tons of them, and dudes still went for the door. So in that regard, history shows that guys reasons for leaving can have as much to do with instability, career progression (or lack thereof) and just being tired of the all crap as they do with simply a lack of flying.

So I think/hope what is happening with the USAFE fighter pilot letter is that they are trying to address the parts of the problem that are actually solvable. And I applaud Boomer, Gork and anyone else who is taking on this fight.

[Guest]

Did somebody sit SOF today???

Probably the best post ever on BO.net...

Fuckin A.

[ronnie75]

How to fix the mass exodus.

Bonus to 20. Guarantee a flying assignment the last tour.

[matmacwc]

Phoenix Aviator, CBPO (I know) told em they should implement it across the board.

https://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=1120&type=0

Probably a good idea, as long as "flying" was in an actual aircraft.

Edit: The more I read that report, the more I agree. I also seems the VSP forum is merging with this one.

Edited July 1, 2011 by matmacwc

[BitteEinBit]

What the AF "Leadership" needs to realize is that officers at the tactical level should be focused on things tactical. Do you want to know what the leadership is stressing during the "Welcome Brief" for new CGOs?? "Get your masters done, do PME via correspondence," and it becomes the culture of our youngest officers to focus more on self-serving actions than the mission of the squadron. Commanders are only relaying information they are getting from higher levels on "what it takes to get promoted." And they are right. The Air Force really doesn't seem to care much about how well we do our jobs...just that we have masters degrees, and that we look good trying to do our jobs. That literally seems to be the focus. And what we end up seeing are people doing everything they can to make sure they stay promotable instead of doing their primary jobs well. In today's Air Force, they can do a mediocre job, but with a little wordsmithing on an OPR they sound like rockstars! Add in PME and AAD, and they are golden!

I'm not at all saying AAD and PME isn't important. It is important that we know how DoD operates and, in some rare cases, an AAD can help facilitate new ideas on how we conduct business. We stay so busy that what we actually get for the money invested in AADs is operators who are not operating at their full tactical potential who spent the first 3-5 years of their career focused on getting a (in many cases) worthless online degree so they can help the AF stats in looking like the most educated force. I can't tell you how many times people disappear from work for a week at a time because they have a masters paper due. Some are even taking leave to do it. Really? Taking leave to finish PME? That is a direct failure of leadership.

Just casually ask any CGO in your flying squadron what their priorities are in the squadron and they'll tell you 1) Finish Masters/PME 2) Do my additional duty (scheduling, tactics, training) 3) Fly. Of course I grew up during the Jumper years, so our commanders back then stressed 1) Know your aircraft! 2) Do PME in correspondence if you want to go in residence (although we still sent people without it done via correspondence) 3) Get a Masters. Of course things weren't as accelerated back then. Pin-on rates for Major didn't happen until 12 years or so. Now, eight years into your career you are considered for promotion to Major. After a year of UPT (probably after sitting casual for 6 months) and another 6 months of FTU, probably 2-3 months of MQT before you're really ready you are two years into your career and now only have 6 years to finish masters, SOS, and get a job where you can get face time with a commander who can ensure your promotion....and we haven't even talked about flying and deploying yet.

Air Force, that is your problem...and until you fix the culture, all of your talented pilots who joined to fly will punch out and use their talents elsewhere, and you'll be left with self-serving, square-filling officers who really aren't as good as they could be at anything tactical. I say this in general...I think MOST of our rated force is very talented, but I also did my time in white jets, and I saw what we let through when we lowered the standards in order to increase pilot production in the mid 2000s.

How to fix the mass exodus.

Bonus to 20. Guarantee a flying assignment the last tour.

Great idea, but we've already seen that the AF doesn't honor contracts. They guarantee nothing other than the needs of the AF.

Air Force: "10-year ADSC: You can't quit, but we can RIF you. Good luck!"

[Hacker]

we've already seen that the AF doesn't honor contracts. They guarantee nothing other than the needs of the AF.

Air Force: "10-year ADSC: You can't quit, but we can RIF you. Good luck!"

This shouldn't be news to ANYONE wearing a USAF uniform. Everyone should have understood that all contracts are 1-way (you have to abide by them, Uncle Sam can abrogate/change/revoke/modify at any time and in any manner) from the moment they put pen to paper on enlistment documentation.

FENCE in and protect yourself.

[Pancake]

This shouldn't be news to ANYONE wearing a USAF uniform. Everyone should have understood that all contracts are 1-way (you have to abide by them, Uncle Sam can abrogate/change/revoke/modify at any time and in any manner) from the moment they put pen to paper on enlistment documentation.

FENCE in and protect yourself.

How? "Be the best in your MWS?" That isn't enough anymore.

Uncle Sam can continue exercising the authority of one-way contracts, but shouldn't be surprised when everyone "pulls chocks" (using vernacular) at the end of their commitment. IMO, not a great way to do business, unless you don't care about organizational culture or the value of AFSC-specific stakeholders.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Pancake

[matmacwc]

FENCE in and protect yourself.

Rather broad statement. I think most here are saying it doesn't matter what you do unless you knee-pads are worn and your pepper grinder technique is perfected. There is no "fencing in", that even sounds like an AFPC statement, wait a minute, it IS an AFPC statement. I started the AF when if you needed the education or PME, they gave it to you, now you need to get it before you get it....sounds like breaking into the porn business. Shit is broke, I further the sentiment of a 70's Capt Keys

Edit: wrong 4 star

Edited July 4, 2011 by matmacwc

[SuperWSO]

Without belaboring the point, I think a lot of people here FENCEd in and had their eyes out for the threat. How do you defend against a liberated high pressure turbine blade though? The shit that is coming apart is internal. Then again, some aspects of the current manpower situation resemble having two call pit bull when you are out in front.

[Hacker]

FENCE In means understand what the threat is and be prepared for it...be prepared to fight it, AS WELL AS accept the consequences of losing that fight. If you're emotionally prepared for the worst options, then you won't be caught off guard when the worst happens.

[Toro]

Follow up from Gen Welsh

To USAFE Fighter Pilots,

Two months ago, I came to you for help. I wanted to know your thoughts on what was driving fighter pilot retention down in the Air Force. The letters poured in and I read every one of them. Now it's time for me to tell you what I heard and what I’ve done and plan to do with the issues you’ve identified, many of which impact all Airmen, not just fighter pilots. Starting this week, I’ll visit each flying squadron in USAFE so I can talk to you face-to-face. I hope to hit all the bases by the end of July. I know many of you will be deployed when I visit your Wing. I apologize for that, but there won’t be a time when I can catch you all at home. That, of course, is part of the problem. When your squadron returns, if you’d like me to come back, just let me know.

Thanks for the feedback ... and for your honesty – both were extremely helpful. Also, thanks again to you and your families for the hard work and sacrifices you and all Airmen continue to make on behalf of our Nation.

I'd be interested in hearing a summary from anybody who is able to attend.

[ClearedHot]

I'd be interested in hearing a summary from anybody who is able to attend.

"2"

[schokie]

He'll be at my base later this week. I'll let you know what he has to say.

[Dubs]

That's pretty badass that he's actually willing to listen and willing to hear it from the lowest levels. The only downside is I'm sure the butt snorklers and the spin-up machines are about to turn it up to 11 in preparation of his visits to each base...

[Kikuchiyo]

He started at Ramstein, simply cause he lives here already. Started by talking about why he asked the question, and why specifically he asked fighter pilots. It all started with a slide he got at Corona showing the severe undermanning of fighters in the next several years. He pointed out that he cares what MAF guys think, too, but since MAF manning is healthy, he wanted to find out first from the CAF what their thoughts were.

He got about 200 responses. Only about 50 were from Fighter guys, and another 50 from MAF guys, all from both within and outside USAFE. He also got 50 from retiress, and another 40 from spouses, parents, even fiancees. He is personally reading them all.

He divided the issues that the replies addressed into about 7 categories, I didn't write them all down. He put quotes from some of the replies on screen, and then put up his thoughts and where he and the AF are going on the issues. Honestly, there wasn't anything earth-shattering here. PME, Masters, deployments, assignments, morale, etc. The usual gripes, and honestly, the usual answers from leadership.

With one big exception. He said it twice, including in his closing remarks, "Your priority is to be the best aviator, not do PME or get a Masters." How will he express that to the Wg, Gp, Sq leadership? But it's what he wants us doing, it's his priority, and we'll see if that translates to the field.

[60 driver]

Follow up from Gen Welsh

I'd be interested in hearing a summary from anybody who is able to attend.

3

Edited July 13, 2011 by 60 driver

[Rusty Pipes]

*correction, Ron Fogelman was that kind of general, sweeping up the mess that skeletor made of the service, and following his convictions, and caring about his people. There is precedent.

Fogelman was definitely the real deal. He was a guy definitely interested in taking care of his people. Pretty impressive to see a CSAF walk away when he saw bull shit thrown around and wasn't going to be just a Yes Man! What I would give to have him back right now!!! I wonder what he thinks of our current AF management today and what changes they have made since he left? Would the #1 concern of LT's flying missions in combat be SOS in correspondence and an Embry Riddle Masters if he were CSAF anytime in the last 9 yrs?

I know we sure as hell wouldn't be wearing blues! If I recall corrctly, he made BDUs and Flight Suits the uniform of the day even for AF folks at the Pentagon on his first day as Chief!

[Hacker]

I think that Jumper was in much the same vein as Fogleman.

[Gravedigger]

I think that Jumper was in much the same vein as Fogleman.

Jumper got his MBA (his first AAD) a year before pinning on Lt Col...I think that speaks to what he thought his priorities should have been as a junior officer.

EDIT: For proof JPJ Bio

Edited July 14, 2011 by Gravedigger