Boss, I quit...

[BQZip01]

I'd be interested in hearing a summary from anybody who is able to attend.

4

keep the updates coming (sts). I too think he would make an EXCELLENT CSAF

[ETARJ]

4

keep the updates coming (sts). I too think he would make an EXCELLENT CSAF

Thankfully he WILL be the next CSAF. Imagine within the next 8 months....

[Karl Hungus]

Honestly, there wasn't anything earth-shattering here. PME, Masters, deployments, assignments, morale, etc. The usual gripes, and honestly, the usual answers from leadership.

With one big exception. He said it twice, including in his closing remarks, "Your priority is to be the best aviator, not do PME or get a Masters." How will he express that to the Wg, Gp, Sq leadership? But it's what he wants us doing, it's his priority, and we'll see if that translates to the field.

There won't be any meaningful changes to the PME/ masters nonsense until the AF separates non-rated and rated promotions. I'm not holding my breath.

[Guest]

Jumper got his MBA (his first AAD) a year before pinning on Lt Col...I think that speaks to what he thought his priorities should have been as a junior officer.

Jumper started out as a herbivore. That was they key to his success.

[Learjetter]

C'mon...the CSAF doesn't have quite the pull you think. If you think any CSAF will make your life butterflies and unicorns, you're in for a surprise. Granted he can try to reduce queep, but he's not going to reduce opstempo, cancel the RPA or move them to Tyndall, eliminate blues, increase flying hours, give us Fridays off, or eliminate PME or AADs. He may even want to do all those things, but not even the CSAF can do any of that without every other four-stars approval. Plus, those items don't even show up on his staff's radar--and don't make a CSAF's top thirty priority list. Your wing king had more power to make your life better than a CSAF does....not saying, just sayin'.

[Danny Noonin]

C'mon...the CSAF doesn't have quite the pull you think. If you think any CSAF will...eliminate blues...or eliminate PME or AADs. He may even want to do all those things, but not even the CSAF can do any of that without every other four-stars approval.

Of course he can eliminate blues on monday. The current CSAF made that policy with the stroke of a pen (sts), albeit after it was suggested at Corona by Lorenz. Previous CSAFs have made utility uniform-of-the-day decisions without consulting the council of the sith lords. As for PME/AADs being masked/unmasked, PME will never be unmasked, but Jumper masked AADs as CSAF. SECAF obviously maintains the overall power, but to say that a CSAF can't do anything without the democratic vote of the other 4-stars is false. It is true that CSAFs tend to consult/discuss issues like this with the other 4-stars at Corona, but that doesn't mean they have to.

As for flying hours, ops tempo, etc. those are other matters based on limited resources and immense requirements, not simply discretionary decisons about queep. Difficult to lump those in the same pile.

The guy is at the top of the military chain of command in the AF...how does that leave him without any "pull" to change queep?

[schokie]

Update from the brief:

He talked for about an hour, then took questions. I've never met the man before, just heard about him from others. I left quite impressed with him and proud to be in his MAJCOM. The bro's I talked with afterward are hopeful that he'll be CSAF one day. He talked about alot of topics, but I'll just hit the highlights. If you've got questions on a particular topic or answer, please ask and I might be able to remember more of what was said.

Problem: Fighter pilot retention. Pilot retention overall isn't ideal, but not bad. 11F trends however anticipate by 2020 there will be a shortfall of over a 1,000 fighter pilots. That's why he had the focus he did. I interpreted the stats to say that he heard from more than 200 people, but only about half were 11Fs. He said he did read every single response, and he's putting them into a booklet form that he will give to other MAJCOM CC's. He said since many of the responses were from other commands, those 4-stars might want to know about them too.

Trends: He said there was no overall one trend. Many people wrote in saying "Boss, here's the one thing you need to fix to make everything better". However they were all different and in some cases contradictory. He said one person wrote saying that WIC grads are being passed over for rank and gucci assignments because they're too busy in the vault for PME and AAD. Another person from the exact same squadron wrote in saying that the problem was WIC grads get all the good deals and the rest of us get the dregs. He didn't comment on the validity of either point, only mentioned it to show that everyone had a different perspective and different reason.

Overall there were 7 main trends, the top three being PME&Masters, Assignments, and Manning. He said he was interested to find that only 3-4 people mentioned the RIF.

PME&Masters: He agreed these were bullshit. He said he though the same when he was a Lt. He polled 13 other 4-stars and all but one of them agreed that AADs before Lt Col were right out. They presented this to the CSAF and are pushing the change, but apparently it requires SECAF support. Standby to standby. He claimed credit for getting rid of ASBC. He's aware the length of SOS increased. AU had the excuse that they have a list of 149 different required learning objectives that must be taught in BDE, which is why SOS had to grow. He told them to give him the list because he's "pretty sure I can trim that down some for you". Expect SOS to change as well. He is pushing for your records to only reflect that you completed SOS, not whether you went in res or not. To prevent group and wing leadership from making people do it twice, he is trying to place a block in the system that will prevent someone with a slot for in-res to enroll or complete SOS in correspondence. His goal is 100% in res completion with no correspondence. This one is still in the works, but he claims other 4-star backing and is taking it to Corona.

Assignments: He's aware TAMI21 was a kick in the nuts. He said the AF didn't lie to anyone, but the truth changed. The scope and need for the UAV changed drastically from the 2006 to now. The need isn't going away, so the only way to immediately solve the UAV manning problem is to reduce supply. The SECDEF emphatically told the CSAF "thou shalt not reduce supply". He said the CSAF is stuck in a tight spot and it eats him up that he has to do this to people. There isn't much he can do about this one.

Manning, or doing more with less: Manning draw downs are the nature of the beast. This will not change. What can change is what we're required to do. He has assembled a list of taskings in USAFE that people think are BS. He made a top 10 list and has his vice working on them. Common kickbacks from queep masters were "We'd love to not do that, but AFI69-### says..." He said "I'm the USAF CC, I'm pretty sure I can change an AFI". If he thinks it's a bullshit tasking that is costing dudes on the line time, he wants it gone. He knows there's a disconnect of yes-men in the middle, so he's having regular meetings with wing cc's to stay on top of this.

He's going to take all these things and keep pushing them. He said he's not afraid to keep bringing them up to higher ups because "I'm a 4-star general, I'm not worried about getting promoted anymore".

There was a lot more he talked about with many other interesting comments, but these were the highlights as I saw them. Was there anything else someone was looking forward to hearing about?

[Day Man]

WELSH FOR CSAF.

[sky_king]

Screw that, Welsh for king!

[Rusty Pipes]

It would be fantastic if he became CSAF and pulled a Jumper saying that AADs were dumb and masked them, but it would be a huge culture change for the current management who most likely will still use it as a discriminator even if they aren't supposed to. I was working on Maj PRF's for a CC the last year that AADs were supposed to be masked and the Sq CC had his own rack and stack spreadsheet. One column was "AAD Y/N"... and guess how he had the guys ranked? They made a big dog and pony show about how the Wing CC was not going to know if they had an AAD when deciding DPs, but they went to the Group ranked 1 thru 13 and then left the OG ranked 1 thru 69. Yup, the Wing CC had no idea if they had an AAD or not... he just knew how they were being pushed by the Sq and Gp CC. I don't know how the other flying Sq CC's ranked their guys, but I know that in my Sq every guy with an AAD was ranked above every guy who didn't have one. Just remember, in just a few short years it went from the AF saying if we want you to get an AAD we'll send you to get one to not only saying you need an AAD, but judging you based on WHEN you got it! It would be nice to have it change; just don't expect the management attitude to change overnight.

[Learjetter]

...quibbling...

The guy is at the top of the military chain of command in the AF...how does that leave him without any "pull" to change queep?

Because he is beholden to: CJCS, SECAF, SECDEF, Congress (HASC/SASC), the prez, and even the Constitution (shout out to PYB!). He's got to protect a dozen multi-billion dollar plans, secure the AF's capability to kick ass and take names, compete with other govt agencies for funding, and preside over numerous functions. In fact, if you think sbout it, i think you'll admit a lot of the queep is usually preceded by a memo from the CSAF: to wit: DADT training or info security CBTs or the elimination of USB drives. IIRC, all three PITAs had an intro from SECAF/CSAF. Finally, since SECDEF made class A uniforms mandatory at the puzzle palace...how long before each service chief follows suit? We've been Flying combat or combat support sorties since 1991...continuously. This, right now, is the new "normal.". I fully expect a return to blues everyday, to this opstempo being "standard". Don't you? Ok--enough rambling...going to get another single-malt and try to remember what the good old days were really like...

[Fud]

In fact, if you think sbout it, i think you'll admit a lot of the queep is usually preceded by a memo from the CSAF..

I heard it starts late on a Friday afternoon. Right around 1500. The general looks at his exec or aide and says, "Hmmm, I wonder what XX percentage of this or that is", and his minions clamoring for his position task everybody and their mother to figure out the answer. People on the staff stay late building stop light slides in powerpoint and spend untold hours waiting for the subordinate organizations to reply with the information.

Since the information rarely gets where it needs to go with that short of a suspense, the Monday staff meeting is where the information is presented. The general, commander, or whomever glosses of the information they forgot they asked about, and the facepalms continue.

This is bad for morale in two ways...

A. It is bullshit.

B. It keeps the subordinates from being able to have that much needed drink after a shitty week.

Break Break...cheers to General Welsh. He really seems to have a great head on his shoulders.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Fud

[magnetfreezer]

It would be fantastic if he became CSAF and pulled a Jumper saying that AADs were dumb and masked them, but it would be a huge culture change for the current management who most likely will still use it as a discriminator even if they aren't supposed to. I was working on Maj PRF's for a CC the last year that AADs were supposed to be masked and the Sq CC had his own rack and stack spreadsheet. One column was "AAD Y/N"... and guess how he had the guys ranked? They made a big dog and pony show about how the Wing CC was not going to know if they had an AAD when deciding DPs, but they went to the Group ranked 1 thru 13 and then left the OG ranked 1 thru 69. Yup, the Wing CC had no idea if they had an AAD or not... he just knew how they were being pushed by the Sq and Gp CC. I don't know how the other flying Sq CC's ranked their guys, but I know that in my Sq every guy with an AAD was ranked above every guy who didn't have one. Just remember, in just a few short years it went from the AF saying if we want you to get an AAD we'll send you to get one to not only saying you need an AAD, but judging you based on WHEN you got it! It would be nice to have it change; just don't expect the management attitude to change overnight.

'2'

Many dudes will probably decide to continue with theirs anyway - even if Gen. Welsh takes over tomorrow and eliminates AADs, todays midgrade captains will be a year from their major's board when the next one takes over and reverses the decision, throwing those who relied on the word of their leadership into a last minute crunch. Similar to a few SQ/CCs who will fight for SOS slots w/o correspondence but still advise their guys to get it done anyway in case they PCS to a base without that policy.

[Champ Kind]

Bait and switch.

[Infamous]

Well excuse me for not checking IDs at the door. After reading two of your posts now, I'm absolutely positive you're an inbred meathed who thinks this...

was meant for you, and have no doubt you really believe that this...

is what people are "retarded" enough to think is behind your pathetic internet avatar.

Nice sig by the way, "The average fighter pilot, despite his sometimes swaggering exterior, is very much capable of feelings such as love, affection, intimacy and caring. These feelings just don't involve anyone else" Anyone you know? Except for the swag, you fit the profile. And just so I am absolutely clear on what I think of you...

Your self image

https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y62/bunk22/mav4.jpg

Probably closer to the truth

https://img357.imageshack.us/img357/1658/pukerwhole8ka.jpg

Wow.

Edited July 16, 2011 by Infamous

[Guest schwabbeau]

BL, even if the most down to earth four-star in the AF takes over we are all still ######ed. Copy all.

Haven't we all had CC's we thought would break the mold and finally be the commander we always wanted, only to find out that we were oh so wrong? The cynicism level on this board is too high to allow expectations to overcome experience.

[Jaded]

I'll believe it when I see it. Words are cheap.

[Beaver]

He said the AF didn't lie to anyone, but the truth changed.

How do you trust anything else a guy says after he says this?

[Guest]

How do you trust anything else a guy says after he says this?

Beaver never disappoints in 20 words or less.

[schokie]

How do you trust anything else a guy says after he says this?

He said this a bit tongue in cheek. I didn't mean to present it out of context. I admit I was a bit taken back as well when he first said it, but his point was that leadership never set out to deceive any one. Folks were sent to the RPA world in 2006 and told it would only be a 2.5-3 year assignment. Many of those people are still there. The caps we were flying then and the resources we had supported the 2.5-3 year claim. Then the number of caps quickly increased far beyond what AF leadership anticipated, which screwed people in the RPA world.

Truth is truth, but the planning assumptions changed. The AF wasn't able to keep its word to certain RPA pilots, but that doesn't mean there was some general somewhere saying "gotcha, bitch!".

Many dudes will probably decide to continue with theirs anyway - even if Gen. Welsh takes over tomorrow and eliminates AADs, todays midgrade captains will be a year from their major's board when the next one takes over and reverses the decision, throwing those who relied on the word of their leadership into a last minute crunch.

Someone asked the question that assuming all these changes occur, what's to prevent the next asshole from changing them? Gen Welsh mentioned how quickly the master's policy was reversed before and he's keeping that in mind. His goal is to put mechanical blocks in the system, such as the one mentioned for SOS enrollment, to discourage CCs from working around the policy's intent and to make it difficult and time consuming for another general to reverse in the future.

[TAMInated]

The AF wasn't able to keep its word to certain RPA pilots, but that doesn't mean there was some general somewhere saying "gotcha, bitch!".

As opposed to the ones it did keep its word to?

Edited July 16, 2011 by TAMInated

[schokie]

I'm not defending Big Blue. The AF absolutely screwed over quite a few folks, otherwise this conversation wouldn't be happening. I don't agree with every single thing Gen Welsh said, but I am excited about most of his ideas and goals. The skepticism and doubts that some have expressed are perfectly valid. I'm not terribly optimistic myself, but I do believe that he presents the best chance we currently have for lasting positive change.

[scoobs]

Honest question here, is it worth staying and hoping things will change for the better? Or getting out and flying in a guard/ reserve unit part time and looking for a job? Are most people seperating already employed when they transition to the civilian side?

[SuperWSO]

Honest question here, is it worth staying and hoping things will change for the better? Or getting out and flying in a guard/ reserve unit part time and looking for a job? Are most people seperating already employed when they transition to the civilian side?

Somebody has to stay in. As for having a job, you should at least have something that looks pretty solid before you pull the handles. I've seen cases and others on this forum have stories of guys who got out thinking that a job would magically appear (airlines, Reserves, start a business...) and it didn't.

Look around and get smart on your options before you start your separation paperwork.

[ClearedHot]

To All,

See email I received below. Marshall Michel Col, USAF (Ret.) is now a historian in USAFE. Please correspond with him at marshall.michel@gmail.com if you have any input that can help him.

From: marshall.michel@gmail.com

Sent: 7/22/2011 11:56:12 P.M. Central Daylight Time

Subj: Morale patches, t-shirts, etc.

Hi Hale, as you may or may not know, the AF is having a huge problem hanging on the fighter pilots (stop me if you've heard this before...). There was a new "Dear Boss" letter and General Walsh sent it out to for all the USAFE fighter pilots and others to comment on, then has been going out to the fighter wings to talk about it.

At exactly the same time, the AF has come out with a new reg that bans morale (Friday) patches, colored squadron t-shirts, etc.

Needless to say, that has the bro screaming and makes Walsh look like a hypocrite, so I have been asked to run down the history of morale/Friday patches, t-shirts, etc. for our lower leaders to have a run at changing the reg in the name of heritage.

My problem is they came in after I stopped flying -- can you help by shooting this out to all and sundry? My suspicion is it came in mid-80ish, and probably started in USAFE, but that is only a hunch. Also, it would be great -- necessary, probably -- to have pictures with names, dates and bases of folks wearing the patches and shirts, and especially if they went on to higher rank (hint...)

Can you help with this? If the 52 FW is any indicator, they are really loosing a lot of good pilots for stupid, unnecessary reasons...

Thanks, Marshall

Edited July 28, 2011 by ClearedHot