Boss, I quit...

[BQZip01]

For all the wannabe's out there that think this gives them an air tight path to an F-22 cockpit:

What this is really saying is there is a shortage of pilots for OTHER jobs that don't require actual flying. There is zero danger of cockpits sitting empty.

Bullsh**. Some units are already having problems meeting minimum crew requirements (no, I'm not going to get into which ones on this forum)...and it's only going to get worse.

[Wolf424]

Bullsh**. Some units are already having problems meeting minimum crew requirements (no, I'm not going to get into which ones on this forum)...and it's only going to get worse.

**COUGH** MC-12 **COUGH**

[sputnik]

Preds

[billy pilgrim]

Sending UPT grads to UAV's is borderline fraud waste and abuse. I know I am preaching to the choir on this one but it pisses me off to no end.

It is shortsighted and an ABSOLUTE CANCER in the CAF. The decision to non-voul young talented aviators to this career field is being upheld by many who have already had an entire career flying fast jets. Where is the integrity and standing up for what is right for the Air Force? Isn't that one of our core values? Doing the RIGHT thing over the EASY thing? The CAF NEEDS an Olds who will stand up for the CGO's on this issue.

I am currently working in Afghanistan and see first hand what the drones do on a daily basis. It is completely unnecessary that they be flown by someone with fighter or T-38 experience. What a waste. I am sure all those poor guys flying them will agree with me.

We are indirectly killing much of the incentive to apply to the Academy. What incentive is there to roll the bones on track select night and pick T-38's? I just talked to a recent USAFA grad who said that many are changing their mind about UPT after seeing what's going on in the Air Force, especially considering the ten year commitment.

If you got rid of the NBA / NFL / MLB, college sports would suffer. Fact.

If the Air Force did not have fighter aircraft, I would not have joined. Period dot. I know others have other reasons, but on day one of UPT about 80% of my class wanted to fly vipers/A-10's/eagles etc... I love the States and consider it an honor to serve in the military but that was the initial draw for me.

Around 300 new fighter pilots a year. That is what the United States Air Force can make. 300. Four years and 5-10 MILLION dollars +/- later they are experienced. And we are sending these pilots experienced and those on their way to getting there to an RPA?! Not only that, we are doing this in a time where others WANT to fly them and there are budget cutbacks. This hollowing out our fighter community will take the better part of a decade and BILLIONS of dollars in flight hours to fix.

Remember when MD didn't put a gun in the F-4 because of our stellar missile technology. The AIM-7 had an 8.9% success rate in the 'nam with over 200 employed. That's where blind faith in technology gets you. Drones fill a niche and they do somethings very well, but they will NEVER replace the fighter pilot completely. Not before they become self-aware.... :-) Afghanistan is an incredibly permissive and forgiving environment for UAV's. We cannot anticipate the next conflict this country faces will be the same.

IMHO by FAR the biggest personnel issue facing the CAF is the UAV.

The biggest tactical issue (which is about to turn into a collosial strategic one) is the lack of fighter aircraft and flight time caused by getting rid of our 4th generation fighters without enough fifth generation to replace them. If we can't afford any more fifth generation jets it it's time for some damage control with EA / better radar / better missiles / better motors.

The reason the CAF used to be so lethal was due to its best trained aviators in the world. It's that simple. We are well on our way to losing that distinction and don't know it because we are untested and look good on paper.

Edited April 8, 2012 by billy pilgrim

[Apollo]

It is shortsighted and an ABSOLUTE CANCER in the CAF. The decision to non-voul young talented aviators to this career field is being upheld by many who have already had an entire career flying fast jets. Where is the integrity and standing up for what is right for the Air Force? Isn't that one of our core values? Doing the RIGHT thing over the EASY thing? The CAF NEEDS an Olds who will stand up for the CGO's on this issue.

I would argue the easy thing would be to keep fighters the way they are. Everyone loves them, pilots want to fly them, and they draw the young crowd for new recruits. Though, according to the higher ups that have more information than I do, they believe the right thing is to employ more UAVs. Will we need more fighters in the next war? Perhaps. We will adapt as we always do. In the end, we signed up to fly whatever aircraft the Air Force needs us to fly. As I pilot do I want to fly UAVs? ###### no. But it's a changing world. The linemen don't make the decisions, we just implement them. Sifting through the nonsense leadership that is bitched about on here all the time, there are some pretty intelligent and capable leaders in charge. We have to trust in them to lead us, or change it for the better any way we can. Otherwise, what option is there but to cry about it and get out?

[Cougar Driver]

Sending UPT grads to UAV's is borderline fraud waste and abuse. I know I am preaching to the choir on this one but it pisses me off to no end.

It is shortsighted and an ABSOLUTE CANCER in the CAF. The decision to non-voul young talented aviators to this career field is being upheld by many who have already had an entire career flying fast jets.

The current trend is that as long as you're not one of the two worst studs in your UPT class, you'll find yourself in a cockpit. I'm not sure that I see the problem with that.

[BQZip01]

The current trend is that as long as you're not one of the two worst studs in your UPT class, you'll find yourself in a cockpit. I'm not sure that I see the problem with that.

If you always send the bottom 2 to preds, you will have a perpetual problem with finding quality pilots

[Dupe]

If you always send the bottom 2 to preds, you will have a perpetual problem with finding quality pilots

If we think that the RPA operator pipeline is good enough, then what's the quality issue with lower-tier UPT grads? Afterall, the bottom 2 guys made it through. You're making the "more than the minimum pieces of flair" argument. All the UPT grads are quality pilots. They're certainly more qualified than the RJ drivers who take me to and from Atlanta.

[Kelvin]

We all realize that the RPA pipeline has been effectively shut off to UPT grads, right? There hasn't been a UAV drop to a pilot in months. This is kind of a null argument now that their training pipeline is up and running.

[Guest]

The reason the CAF used to be so lethal was due to its best trained aviators in the world. It's that simple.

Losing lots of airplanes in Vietnam and the looming threat of Ivan charging through the Fulda Gap made the USAF train hard. Red Flag and FWIC were a couple examples of the USAF saying we need to get our shit together.

It worked.

We didn't know how dominant we were going into Desert Storm. Most people thought thought the Israelis had the best air force in the world in 1990. No one thought that in March 1991. Everyone was surprised at how few losses we took, how quickly we hammered the shit out of the Iraqis and overall how much ass we kicked.

Things changed almost immediately after Desert Storm. We called it the peace dividend. We had a massive draw down and the USAF began training to reduced/low threat scenarios We quickly moved into the mindset that anything below 10k was low altitude and dangerous. Guys thought they would blow up if they went below 10k in combat, no shit.

We have some great technology today. We just need to be sure we are maximizing our training or we might end up getting surprised...and that will be expensive.

[Swizzle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2VwpkdUw_s

[Murph]

Not sure I buy the phrase "pilot shortage." There will forever be an endless pool of CFIs and RJ pilots looking for a better job. Maybe the better phrase is "increased airline hiring."

Bingo. And the mainlines have already begun consolidating their fleets to wide bodies to compensate. The regional world will continue to hire, but the "cushy" mainlines will still be competitive. If everyone wants to leave the Air Force to be a RJ first officer, be my guest. The dark horse is going to be the cargo world in the Asian market, though. It could prove to be fairly lucrative.

[Red Fox]

Losing lots of airplanes in Vietnam and the looming threat of Ivan charging through the Fulda Gap made the USAF train hard. Red Flag and FWIC were a couple examples of the USAF saying we need to get our shit together.

It worked.

Things changed almost immediately after Desert Storm. We called it the peace dividend. We had a massive draw down and the USAF began training to reduced/low threat scenarios

We have some great technology today. We just need to be sure we are maximizing our training or we might end up getting surprised...and that will be expensive.

When I first attended RF in 1990 (stayed at that dump called the Rainbow Vegas) as a C-130 AC, there were 6 to 8 exercises per year with two two-week phases to each exercise. Now there are only three Red Flags at Nellis and three in AK. At Nellis, two of the three are watered down (tier 3). I think in some ways, at least in the MAF, the WIC has replaced Red Flag as the main venue to get LFE exposure. Red Flag AK is better for MAF integration also. I also remember during my 1st RF how impressed I was with the CAF - they were full-up, IMO. I believe that part has not changed. Regards, RF.

[Champ Kind]

I also remember during my 1st RF how impressed I was with the CAF - they were full-up, IMO. I believe that part has not changed.

Agreed. Been a player in two RF-As. Had the opportunity to work directly with the CAF guys on one of the sorties. Dudes were definitely full-up.

[Guest]

When I first attended RF in 1990 (stayed at that dump called the Rainbow Vegas) as a C-130 AC,

I loved that place. 69 second stroll to Binions. Had a murder happen there one RF. Awesome.

[BB Stacker]

Had a murder happen there one RF. Awesome.

Reminds me of the AFCOMAC students in a 15 pax GOV that got caught in a drive-by in lovely Linda, CA. I heard it was fun explaining the bullet holes.

Re: RF-A, I can't say this with certainty since I have no experience with the Nellis exercises, but it seems to me that some of the better MAF integration comes from the fact that generally speaking the Det at Elmendorf is only supporting airlift and C2 assets, so it's a little easier to focus more on airlift. It also probably doesn't hurt that a lot of the international folks at RF-As (almost everyone) brings C-130s, and for quite a few of them that's all they bring. Since PACOM AOR partner engagement is one of the big focuses currently for RF-A, this tends to raise the visibility as well.

[ClearedHot]

Dear Boss, I Don't Just Quit, I Give Up

"So you can keep your Bonus Take Rate and whatever other variables go into your Rated Distribution and Training Management models. Money isn’t going to keep me here. I didn’t become a fighter pilot because I wanted to get rich. I became a fighter pilot because I believed. And after everything I’ve seen, my trust and faith in the Air Force is so broken I don’t know why I’m doing this anymore. This flight path marker is buried in the dirt. I’m punching out."

[Murph]

What better place to purport a DT, DCA, and OCA agenda than on The Small Wars Journal.

[Dupe]

What better place to purport a DT, DCA, and OCA agenda than on The Small Wars Journal.

Making clear the opportunity costs of 20+ years of small war support is a valid shot.

[Darth]

Having been in a position of leadership at RF (a while ago), I was sometimes frustrated at the senior leadership who thought RF needed to change completely from the traditional tenet of "first 10 missions for Blue 4" to support a COIN/Low Threat/SCAR/XCAS/whatever to train for Iraq and Afghanistan. And how much it pissed 'em off when I told them "NFW". Although we did institute "Part Task Training" to accommodate the training needed. The other side of that picture is the number of younger guys who would come up with ideas that were incredibly stupid too - and would get pissy when you told them "no". It is interesting to see what RF is doing today. And I am not impressed.

[billy pilgrim]

You can make airplanes faster (or you used to be able to) than a cadre of well-trained and proficient pilots. Once those pilots are gone in number - which is going to happen in the next five years or so if nothing changes - it will take at least a decade and billions of dollars to fix.

The Air Force is in dire need of change. The absolute worst thing we can do is nothing. The F-22 continues to have problems and the F-35 is getting slow rolled and running into cost overruns.

It seems obvious to me to go ugly early and upgrade 4th gen gets or even make some new ones. Hint - you could use the R&D from these 5th gen programs.* It is better to have these jets in number, which will yield a a force of proficient pilots then to have the latest and greatest in very few number and oh by the way never be able to fly them (whether mx or $$ related, the effect is the same - a weak and hollow Air Force).

*I think a parallel is the Seawolf submarine, at least how I understand it. It was to replace the Los Angeles class nuclear attack sub. It was WAY too expensive - Navy bought three and then made a cheaper Virgina class utilizing a lot of the same technology.

[Guest]

It is interesting to see what RF is doing today. And I am not impressed.

Shot.

[HossHarris]

It is interesting to see what RF is doing today. And I am not impressed.

Seen/Been to a Tier 1 flag lately?

[ClearedHot]

Once those pilots are gone in number - which is going to happen in the next five years or so if nothing changes - it will take at least a decade and billions of dollars to fix.

Or Stop Loss...

[Darth]

Seen/Been to a Tier 1 flag lately?

No. But have visited and discussed current execution with staff (know several of them from previous life and get opprtunites to visit Nellis in my current life.) I find it interesting to look at who the assumed training audience is and prioritized and how each RF is executed. I think some things have improved and some things have been hijacked. These are items worth of disucssion over several beers.