Raptors grounded over OBOGS issue

[noodles]

AFA's response to F-22 criticism. A later correction stated "the F-18 and F-22 oxygen systems are similar but not the same. Still the Navy has had many, many incidences with its system." This is the first time that I've heard the "SecDef denied deployment requests" theory...and the argument that F-22s were perfect for air-to-ground work in Libya.

[Guest]

The latest Craptor buffoonery...

So a guy is on the ground, has hypoxia symptoms, calls ths SOF, and the SOF tells him to yank the green apple and declare an emergency.

What ever happened to pop the canopy and drop your mask?

[Ram]

"Open the canopy, Raptor!"

"I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that."

Seriously...didn't a Raptor test pilot get stuck a few years back when HAL decided that opening the canopy wasn't a good idea? They had to cut him out, causing all kinds of FOD in the cockpit. I think he was there for a few hours before they decided that the saw was the only way for him to egress.

[Guest]

That or...

HANDGRIPS - RAISE

TRIGGERS - SQUEEZE

[pcola]

That or...

1. HANDGRIPS - RAISE

2. TRIGGERS - SQUEEZE

FIFY

Edited June 27, 2012 by pcola

[Azimuth]

"Open the canopy, Raptor!"

"I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that."

Seriously...didn't a Raptor test pilot get stuck a few years back when HAL decided that opening the canopy wasn't a good idea? They had to cut him out, causing all kinds of FOD in the cockpit. I think he was there for a few hours before they decided that the saw was the only way for him to egress.

https://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=20396

[spaceman]

That canopy is one expensive chunk of plastic!

[billy pilgrim]

That canopy is one expensive chunk of plastic!

Hmmm - maybe because Lockheed dictates the price... I am curious to what will happen when they basically have a monopoly on the DOD aircraft (F-22, F-16, F-35). What will win with respect to the F-35 between economy of scale (which was the major "selling point") and Lockheed Martins bottom line? Hint: Not the taxpayer.

[buenavista]

F-16 Co-Designer Claims F-22’s Glues Causing Hypoxia

https://defensetech.o...ausing-hypoxia/

[rancormac]

I understand that breathing toxins is harmful, but how does that equate to hypoxia [lack of oxygen] ?

[Swanee]

I understand that breathing toxins is harmful, but how does that equate to hypoxia [lack of oxygen] ?

There are 4 different types of Hypoxia. Some chemicals bond with O2 and/or prevent your body of using it. CO2 poisoning and shallow water blackout comes to mind. I think that type is called histotoxic hypoxia.

[rancormac]

There are 4 different types of Hypoxia. Some chemicals bond with O2 and/or prevent your body of using it. CO2 poisoning and shallow water blackout comes to mind. I think that type is called histotoxic hypoxia.

Learned something new today. Thanks!

[kchsload]

Interesting article from the New York Times, not sure how much of it is new info but it mentions issues and findings I haven't heard of thus far. (Granted, I haven't been following it too closely.)

JOINT BASE LANGLEY-EUSTIS, Va. — Capt. Jeff Haney was at 51,000 feet on a night flight above Alaska in November 2010 when the oxygen system in his F-22 Raptor fighter jet shut down, restricting his ability to breathe as he plummeted faster than the speed of sound into the tundra below. His plane burned a crater into the ice, froze 40 feet beneath the surface and was not fully recovered until the spring thaw.

Captain Haney’s death unnerved the elite community of F-22 pilots, as did a series of episodes over the next 18 months in which an alarming number of them experienced symptoms of hypoxia, or oxygen deprivation. The Air Force grounded the Raptor, the jewel of its fleet, but could not find anything wrong, so it put the jet back in the air — only to have the episodes increase. In May, two seasoned pilots took the extraordinary step of telling CBS News’s “60 Minutes” that they refused to fly the plane.

Last month, a breakthrough seemed to come at last. Investigators believed that a malfunctioning pressure vest was restricting pilots’ breathing and that narrow oxygen hoses were leaking and not delivering enough air. Pilots began flying without the vest, and, buoyed by three months without an episode, Air Force officials told the news media that they might be close to a solution.

But last week, as Air Force officials escorted a reporter and a photographer to the Langley flight line to watch F-22s roaring on and off the runway for an ostensible good-news story, it happened again. A pilot pulled his emergency oxygen handle sometime after landing because of what the Air Force characterized as “discomfort” from intermittent air flow into the pilot’s mask during flight. The Air Force is investigating but so far has said little.

Senator Mark Warner, for one, is outraged by the episode. “I’ve been pressing them about the explanation for this, and we still don’t have an answer,” he said in an interview on Friday. “We don’t even have the full details yet.”

Mr. Warner, a Virginia Democrat who has taken up the cause of the two pilots who spoke to “60 Minutes” because they are constituents who fly out of Langley, said he was equally frustrated that the Air Force was only now coming to the conclusion that there might be a problem with the jet’s oxygen flow.

“Wouldn’t this have been the first question to be asked?” he said.

The F-22, which at $400 million is the world’s most expensive jet, was conceived during the cold war when the Air Force wanted a plane to counter improvements in Russian MIGs. But the Soviet Union disappeared long before Lockheed Martin built the first F-22 prototype in 1997. By then critics had branded it a relic.

It was not until 2009 that Congress, pushed by President Obama and the defense secretary at the time, Robert M. Gates, agreed to limit the number of planes it would pay for to 187, the number now in service.

Although the stealthy jet is a technological wonder that can fly higher, faster and with more maneuvers than any other, it has never been used in combat. (A squadron of F-22s is deployed to a base in the Persian Gulf as a deterrent to Iran.) The plane sat out the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the conflict in Libya because it was not needed.

“Last I checked, the Taliban air force was pretty small,” said Richard L. Aboulafia, an aviation analyst at the Teal Group in Fairfax, Va. But Mr. Aboulafia, who compares the F-22 to a Maserati and the newer and relatively less expensive F-35 Joint Strike Fighterto a BMW sedan, said he supported the F-22 as a hedge against future developments in Chinese aircraft.

The Air Force says that since the plane was put into operation in 2005, pilots have experienced 21 unexplained episodes of hypoxialike symptoms. At least three episodes occurred before Captain Haney’s death. (His crash is not included in the 21 episodes because the Air Force counts it as one of 15 additional “explained” hypoxialike events — anything from a loose air hose to a total failure of the life-support system.)

It was not until 10 unexplained episodes had occurred that the Air Force took the drastic step in May 2011 of grounding the entire F-22 fleet. Investigators combed through the planes, focusing on whether there were contaminants in the oxygen system that might be making pilots disoriented. They found nothing conclusive. But as a precaution — and for further testing — the Air Force gave pilots devices to monitor their oxygen levels during flight and installed charcoal filters in the air system to block potential poisons.

The plane resumed flying in September, but within six months there were 11 more unexplained episodes, and some pilots were coughing up black sputum. Ground crews that worked in the cockpit were also affected. Air Force doctors determined that at the very least the charcoal filter was restricting airflow. It was removed in late April, shortly before the “60 Minutes” episode was shown.

Within days of the broadcast, Defense Secretary Leon E. Panetta ordered the Air Force to keep all F-22 flights within safe proximity of landing strips — or about 30 minutes of flight time from an air base — and to speed up the installation of an automatic backup oxygen system.

By that time the focus of the Air Force had shifted to the quantity, rather than the quality, of the oxygen in the jet. Working with NASA and an elite Navy diving unit, investigators determined in recent weeks that pilot vests meant to inflate as a safeguard against sudden decompression at high altitudes were staying inflated throughout the flights. The result was more pressure on pilots who were already breathing heavily from powerful G-forces in training for aerial combat.

“This is a lot like a corset, except that it’s around my chest,” said Maj. Gen. Charles Lyon, an Air Force pilot who is leading a new investigation into the jet’s problems. In addition, General Lyon said his inquiry had discovered that F-22 pilots were gulping air in physically demanding situations, like practice dogfights, at higher rates than the plane’s oxygen system could produce.

By mid-June, the Air Force ordered pilots to fly without the vest but to stay below 44,000 feet to avoid dangers from any high-altitude decompression. The Air Force at the same time began moves to redesign the garment, widen the jet’s air hoses and fix any leaks. “Everything is on a positive trend line,” General Lyon said.

The general spoke four days before the most recent episode at Langley, which occurred last Tuesday, when the pilot was, as ordered, not wearing a vest. Lt. Col. Tadd Sholtis, an Air Force spokesman, said it was too soon to say what other factors might have caused the episode, although so far it appeared to be a “mechanical problem” with the life-support system.

[youngpj]

"last time I checked, the Taliban air force was pretty small"...

Okay Dick Abo, aviation analyst, thanks for your contribution.

[ClearedHot]

"last time I checked, the Taliban air force was pretty small"...

Okay Dick Abo, aviation analyst, thanks for your contribution.

So short-sighted, an absolute moron using a specious argument to play to the masses. It is sad that dolts like this make a living spewing nonsensical drivel.

[GearMonkey]

Okay Dick Abo, aviation analyst, thanks for your contribution.

In all fairness, he did say at the end of the very same sentence that he supports the F-22 as a hedge against China.

[Learjetter]

So short-sighted, an absolute moron using a specious argument to play to the masses. It is sad that dolts like this make a living spewing nonsensical drivel.

CH...why bring Rainman into this? He was a hog-driver, not a raptor guy!

[panchbarnes]

*Thread Revival*

*SIGH* - Good luck with the DoD IG

Pilot's career stalls after criticizing oxygen system

https://www.stripes.com/pilot-s-career-stalls-after-criticizing-oxygen-system-1.279043

In February 2012, the Virginia Guard leadership called him a "premier tactician" who was making "outstanding progress" in flight lead upgrade training that would prepare him for a leadership role. His commander wrote that Wilson was "one of my top wingmen" and a "superb officer, aviator and volunteer."

But the tone turned sharply critical -- bordering on sarcastic -- in a review written after he went public about the F-22.

It described Wilson as an "average officer" during 2012. Without mentioning his television appearance, the review, which Nardi approved, described Wilson as a "photogenic, driven and vocal officer; willing to express and share views regarding F-22A operations at all levels."

Edited April 20, 2014 by PanchBarnes

[Dupe]

In any civilian company, taking an issue straight to the media would be grounds for termination. This guy just gets to wither in VA ANG staff limbo.

I miss Rainman... Never talk to the media.

[BolterKing]

In any civilian company, taking an issue straight to the media would be grounds for termination. This guy just gets to wither in VA ANG staff limbo.

I miss Rainman... Never talk to the media.

One guy died, countless others had waivering faith in the OBOGS system (the Hornet/Superhornet OBOGS has a HAZREP sheet a mile long, and it doesn't operate at 60k+). The USAF was keeping quiet and even blamed the AK crash on the pilot.

These guys were whistle blowers. While the heavies were playing politics with a jet they felt might kill them, this was their only way to bring it to light.

Normally I would agree, never talk to the media... But these two were willing to put their crank on the chopping block for the betterment of others. Says a lot more about the USAF than the judgement of these two.

This isn't done yet, and I have a feeling the IG is going to be destroying some careers, and not of the guys on 60 minutes.

Edited April 20, 2014 by BolterKing

[BFM this]

But these two were willing to put their crank on the chopping block

And their cranks got chopped, as it were.

Unfortunately, as you or any flyer knows, "just doing your job" in the flying community isn't as simple as just being let back in the office. It also requires the trust of your chain of command. I applaud these guys for what they did--I think that it made a difference. But if they no longer have the trust of their commanders, then not flying isn't actually punitive, no matter how much you want to fly.

Kind of like you can't get disciplined as a result of a safety investigation, but a commander directed Q3 isn't punitive, and often follows safety investigations.

[BolterKing]

And their cranks got chopped, as it were.

Unfortunately, as you or any flyer knows, "just doing your job" in the flying community isn't as simple as just being let back in the office. It also requires the trust of your chain of command. I applaud these guys for what they did--I think that it made a difference. But if they no longer have the trust of their commanders, then not flying isn't actually punitive, no matter how much you want to fly.

Kind of like you can't get disciplined as a result of a safety investigation, but a commander directed Q3 isn't punitive, and often follows safety investigations.

Exactly, and what his chain of command did at best was derelict, at worst criminal. The dude had orders from a doc to not fly with the charcoal filter which started this whole thing. Would you have confidence in you COC under those circumstances? If they can't back you up for something this small, when your health is in question, what are they going to do down range? The lawyers make it hard enough to do the job, zero top cover from an image worried front office would make it impossible. Edited April 20, 2014 by BolterKing

[Dupe]

These guys were whistle blowers. While the heavies were playing politics with a jet they felt might kill them, this was their only way to bring it to light.

Whistle blowers go to their commanders, IGs, or congress people.

Guys need to understand that going to the media undercuts the organization.

[ElLoco]

Whistle blowers go to their commanders, IGs, or congress people.

Guys need to understand that going to the media undercuts the organization.

Unless the organization is jacked from the start

[Ram]

I totally believe he's subject to retributional career discrimination, and I hope he weighed the pros/cons of talking to the media before proceeding the way he did. If he thought the DoD would pat him on the back and buy him a beer for airing dirty laundry on the news, he's the most naive man in the world.

https://www.stripes.com/pilot-s-career-stalls-after-criticizing-oxygen-system-1.279043

In February 2012, the Virginia Guard leadership called him a "premier tactician" who was making "outstanding progress" in flight lead upgrade training that would prepare him for a leadership role. His commander wrote that Wilson was "one of my top wingmen" and a "superb officer, aviator and volunteer."

In all fairness, comments like "one of my top wingmen" are not exactly sterling remarks on an OPR. Putting "premier tactician" on an OPR is just another way to fill white space.

Let this be a cautionary tale to the rest of us. Sometimes talking to the media will seem like your only option, but don't forget that it comes at a severe opportunity cost. Fence in before you make that decision, and be ready for what happens next.