Shoe Clerk Vol 3

[pawnman]

WWROD

If I had to guess, I think he wouldn't wear a reflective belt.

Hard to believe people can draw hostile fire pay in an area where being run over by your fellow service members is a greater risk than being picked off by enemy fire.

[Hacker]

Another good quote from the comments

"A salute today, PT uniform tomorrow, a failed NSI next week."

Another great one from the line of thought that says, "if you can keep your queep straight, the tactics will take care of themselves."

[10percenttruth]

On a commander's list of 69 million priorities, Shoe Clerks are guaranteed to sodomize the bottom four

[GovernmentMan]

Shoe Clerks are guaranteed to sodomize the bottom

Ah...now we get to the real motivation for the repeal of DADT.

[Guest Ponis]

Here's the AFCENT Sup...

https://www.380aew.afcent.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123236595

[Whitty]

Here's the AFCENT Sup...

https://www.380aew.afcent.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123236595

Probably should have had someone proofread that article. I mean, how can I expect someone to do their job if they can't use a friggin spellchecker?

[GoAround]

WWROD

Excerpt from "Fighter Pilot: the Memoirs of Legendary Ace Robin Olds"...

***The chaplain showed up and sauntered up to my desk. He was in uniform with his captain's bars on one collar and his chaplain's insignia on the other. He was sort of a roly-poly and just stood there. I looked at him and asked quietly if he considered himself an officer in the United States Air Force. He acknowledged that he was. "Then salute!" I said, which he did with some difficulty.***

[StoleIt]

Excerpt from "Fighter Pilot: the Memoirs of Legendary Ace Robin Olds"...

***The chaplain showed up and sauntered up to my desk. He was in uniform with his captain's bars on one collar and his chaplain's insignia on the other. He was sort of a roly-poly and just stood there. I looked at him and asked quietly if he considered himself an officer in the United States Air Force. He acknowledged that he was. "Then salute!" I said, which he did with some difficulty.***

If the guy was from COTS I am surprised he said "yes" to the officer question.

[afnav]

Here's the AFCENT Sup...

https://www.380aew.afcent.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123236595

What His Chiefness is missing...is the point.

It's isn't a question of 'following orders'. I think most of us have demonstrated that if we have been made it through whatever assession training we have done (some of us were so dumb, that we had to do it twice for both sides).

The real point is following orders for stupid shit. Even the Brits eventually figured out that wearing red coats into battle probably wasn't the smartest idea in the world, once the psychological advantage of intimidation was lost. Patton gets taken out of context all the time with that quote.

This guy needs to get away from his computer more often, and go out and really ask airmen how their lives are going. He is not winning any wars or hearts and minds writing this stupid shit.

[ThreeHoler]

Here's the AFCENT Sup...

https://www.380aew.afcent.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123236595

It is the 380 AEW...the most REMF of all REMF AFCENT bases.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

It is the 380 AEW...the most REMF of all REMF AFCENT bases.

Uh, do the numbers 3, 7 and 9 mean anything to you?

[Jughead]

Apparently it's a "force protection" issue...although I've never seen one contractor stopped and questioned.

I'm afraid your information is dated. In the latest Newspeak, the (former, as of last week) Wing/CC at the 'Deid was fond of stating (repeatedly, at all of his Right Starts and CC Calls) that the reason for wearing PT gear was so he could identify his combatants at all times....

[Red Devil 89]

Clearly this is a box you need to check to make Chief/Colonel. Honestly...

Unfortunately, most of the comments were supporting the Captain's sentiment. While I agree crisp salutes are great and all, come on, that's what you're gonna put your name to on af.mil? My god...the rationale of people in the comments. If I hear one more time "If you can't salute properly how can we trust you to fly a multi-million dollar airplane?" I will choke that person out.

the one that irked me was the guy comparing this to the Bent Spear incident in 2007....here's to you jack ass

[Vice]

I'm more likely to creatively go out of my way to salute officers in bags (E4 at an ACC base) as well as strike up a conversation when you're in line getting booze at the Class 6 on Fridays.

[Disco_Nav963]

Some choice E-8 wisdom from AF.mil:

I was in the exchange looking at the new DVDs and noticed a staff sergeant at the other end of the aisle looking at the video games. As I got closer, I noticed he had a pair of sunglasses on top of his head, his airman battle uniform shirt pocket and cargo pocket were unbuttoned, and his hat was sticking halfway out of his cargo pocket. As I continued to get closer to this individual, two NCOs walked right by him and did not say a word. I was dumbfounded; I thought for sure they would have corrected him. I approached the staff sergeant and told him exactly what he needed to fix and, by the expression on his face, he was shocked someone corrected him. The staff sergeant quickly corrected his uniform as I carefully explained the errors of his ways.

I see these types of violations everyday all over JB Randolph and, more often than not, I find myself correcting NCOs and senior NCOs, not the junior enlisted Airmen. I can understand correcting some of our newer Airmen, but not our NCOs and senior NCOs. What has happened to our core values? Integrity, doing what's right when no one is looking and excellence in all we do?

And from the comments:

I agree wholeheartedly with SMSgt Coleman. Of course we will always have those that say that concentrating on small uniform violations is not leadership and that we should only concentrate on the big stuff. The problem with that statement is that we have to start somewhere. We have to pay attention to the little things AND the big things. The little things may seem small at the time, but often are indicative of a bigger problem. I was once told that you can tell the quality of leadership at a base by how the people look in their uniforms. If they are following the rules for their uniforms you can bet they are following them for hanging bombs and guarding resources.

OTOH, this anecdote from the comments made me smile:

I remember long ago at Bitburg AB, Germany. I was a young SSgt and was walking past the NCO Club one afternoon with my left hand in my pocket. A CMSgt walked towards me and greeted me with his LEFT hand out to shake the hand in my pocket I immediate pulled out my left hand and shook his smiled and thanked him for his great way to point out my infraction. I never forgot that. A great Chief he was.

[Stiffler]

The breakdown of discipling comes from the air force teaching enlisted folks thats its cool to correct officers. I remember learning that our job was to kill people and break their toys. No one should be correcting people that actually go outside of the wire unless that personal failed to kill bad people or break their stuff. Otherwise STFU and know your role. That is all.

[BQZip01]

The breakdown of discipling comes from the air force teaching enlisted folks thats its cool to correct officers. I remember learning that our job was to kill people and break their toys. No one should be correcting people that actually go outside of the wire unless that personal failed to kill bad people or break their stuff. Otherwise STFU and know your role. That is all.

It's all a matter of motivation.

If someone is correcting another individual, but is doing so to make others' lives better or to prevent bigger problems (i.e. "Sir, your collar is flipped over. Let me fix it for you" or "Sir, your parachute straps are wrapped") that's one thing. It's when junior personnel are either disrespectful or are doing so just to exert power over others/superiors I would consider it conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline

[LJDRVR]

Exactly, Zip. When I was on active duty I would have never, as an enlisted troop, thought to correct an officer on anything. If I had I would have had my ass handed to me and rightfully so.

Obviously, things have changed. So here's a question: when some shoe engages you in what you view to be an inappropriate manner, do you let it pass? I guess what I'm wondering is why do these folks feel it is OK to point things out in a less than respectful manner? I'm sure part of it is cultural, but is the young man or woman is encouraged to put the officer in their place by having gotten away with it?

You do know you can lock these punks up at the position of attention and leave a really bad taste in their mouth, right?

I know it's different AF, but I'm just picturing MSgt Dooright being publicly embarrased in front of his or her peers and what a good teaching moment that might be for the junior folks to STFU and worry about their own business.

Edited December 11, 2011 by LJDRVR

[nsplayr]

We've beat this topic up ad naseum. The big problem, the way I see it, is that E-9 Bag O'Doghnuts will almost certainly run tell his boss if an officer gives him a "talking to," deserved or not. That O-6 will then call your O-5 SQ/CC and pull him into his office to determine WTF happened. Then said O-5, whether he goes to bat for your or throws you under the bus, will talk to you one way or another to find our your side of the story. Time wasted for your boss, time wasted for you. So ignoring said E-9 in the first place is probably good technique for staying focused on the mission. Let him go way, waaay over the line before you elevate the situation and then even though it will be a waste of time, at least you've got pocket Aces.

BL: Officers are at fault for the current environment and for empowering enlisted troops and/or giving them the midset that make disrespectful comments/corrections toward officers is ok. I've found in my short career that 9 times out of 10 when a E-9 is our front implementing a stupid idea enthusiastically, he's doing so at the behest of his senior officer boss, who is often rated to boot.

Edited December 11, 2011 by nsplayr

[BQZip01]

Exactly, Zip. When I was on active duty I would have never, as an enlisted troop, thought to correct an officer on anything. If I had I would have had my ass handed to me and rightfully so.

Obviously, things have changed. So here's a question: when some shoe engages you in what you view to be an inappropriate manner, do you let it pass? I guess what I'm wondering is why do these folks feel it is OK to point things out in a less than respectful manner? I'm sure part of it is cultural, but is the young man or woman is encouraged to put the officer in their place by having gotten away with it?

You do know you can lock these punks up at the position of attention and leave a really bad taste in their mouth, right?

I know it's different AF, but I'm just picturing MSgt Dooright being publicly embarrased in front of his or her peers and what a good teaching moment that might be for the junior folks to STFU and worry about their own business.

I'm on my way out of active duty...rest assured, I have no problem being slightly dickish to get my point across. Make sure you know the regulations that state that they must stand when a superior officer is addressing them.

[LJDRVR]

I'm on my way out of active duty...rest assured, I have no problem being slightly dickish to get my point across. Make sure you know the regulations that state that they must stand when a superior officer is addressing them.

Oh, I wasn't directing that your way at all, Zip. I'm just curious why it continues to be an issue. My fear is that some are allowing it to by not taking the appropriate corrective action on the spot.

O's and E's are all on the same team - for the most part there's a lot of mutual respect and professionalism. Nobody wants to be a dick when somebody gets out of line. But some just don't get it, so here's something to consider:

Being told to stand at the position of attention is a lawful order. That's what I mean when I say "Lock 'em up." Often times, the best way to get through to a knucklehead and those who are watching, is by simply reminding them, in the most brusque manner possible that this is the military and insubordination, disrespect, involving yourself in other's business and bad manners are simply not going to be tolerated.

There's nothing wrong with a little bit of a raised voice to get your point across. You'll be amazed how well it works. If the pussy wants to run off and cry to Daddy? that's their loss. Hopefully your commander has a pair and will back up good order and discipline. If not, you've got bigger problems than some bag-o-donuts SNCO.

[SurelySerious]

Make sure you know the regulations that state that they must stand when a superior officer is addressing them.

For those of you keeping score at home, that's 34-1201 section 8.2.

[Disco_Nav963]

I like the bit about seniors getting the more desirable seats on modes of transportation including aircraft. Always grinds my gears when I get on the rotator and the dozen MSgts from the MXG take all the "business class" seats while dozens of majors, captains and lieutenants suffer the ravages of DVT. However, odds of me citing the AFI next time I'm getting on the rotator: zilch.

[nsplayr]

If not, you've got bigger problems than some bag-o-donuts SNCO.

We already have these "bigger problems," that was the point of my previous post. It's the officers who have let this environment flourish and I'm not talking about line captains and passed-over majors. Or even squadron commanders for the most part...the rot happens at the top when senior managers empower E-9s and SMSgt Shirts to implement stupid ideas like having enlisted troops "ensuring discipline and compliance" among the whole force, including the officer corps.

IMHBAO if senior managers have problems with compliance in their units, they should get out there themselves and make it work rather than sending "sternly worded emails" or espicially their crony SNCOs who have absolutely no place "correcting" officers in public in the disrespectful manner I'm sure we've all seen.

/rant off

[BQZip01]

I like the bit about seniors getting the more desirable seats on modes of transportation including aircraft. Always grinds my gears when I get on the rotator and the dozen MSgts from the MXG take all the "business class" seats while dozens of majors, captains and lieutenants suffer the ravages of DVT. However, odds of me citing the AFI next time I'm getting on the rotator: zilch.

What's the AFI on that situation out of curiosity?