"No Rank Amongst Lieutenants"

[ThreeHoler]

If you can't get them to salute when they're supposed to...aw ######it.

Bottom line is very simple: I hate queep as much as the next guy, but certain things are distinct within the military. Customs and courtesies are some of those things. I think every one of us can be really ######ing good at our day jobs and still handle the two seconds it takes to salute when we're supposed to salute.

[HuggyU2]

I worked at IBM as a co-op during college, and was given a very, very lucrative job offer when I graduated. I passed on it to roll the bones on becoming an officer and a pilot,... and maybe be a part of something bigger,... at least that was what my 22 year old mind was telling me.

I was and still am proud to wear the uniform of the USAF. On the day I was commissioned, I was pretty pleased to be wearing it,... even those it was the Blues... a uniform that many of you despise.

And as for the saluting, if you feel it is beneath you to salute, then I really don't know what do say. I just don't get it. Do you not make eye contact? Do you not say "yo, what's up?" Or is this some sort of way you compensate for your small penis?

Oh, and the next time any of you Captains walks by a Lieutenant Commander at the Pentagon, make sure you explain to him how "in my squadron, we have a 'one up, one down rule.'" Yet another reason the other Services often laugh at our attitude.

I'm certainly not very "traditional" in a military sense, no matter how you look at it. But for crying out loud, you wanted to be here,... try to enjoy the customs and courtesies. It's not a burden.

[nsplayr]

I tread carefully with the "one up one down" attitude. I'll gladly salute any and all Majors and above and will only potentially consider not saluting a Captain who I know extremely well and who I know shares a similar view of CGOs being bros. To me the written rules stop at the FGO level; that's my accepted level of risk in bending the rules.

Clearly the correct answer is that yes, by reg, lower-ranking officers will salute higher-ranking officers, and that unwritten rules to no apply. However, since this thread is titled No Rank Amongst Lieutenants, I can 100% agree with that because we're all f*cking lieutenants.

[Guest Crew Report]

Because the unwritten rule in the flying squadrons I've been a part of is "one-up, one-down". Plus, as flyers, we value tactical knowledge and skill in the jet over rank earned because you've been in for x number of years. As well, many of the Capts have instructed the Majs who are returning from ALFA tours.f

So the Sq/CC or Sq/DO doesn't have to salute the OG, CV, or Wing/CC?

The irony in this are the Lt/Junior Capt's that won't salute Maj's cause of the "bro rule" are the same douchenozzles who get pissy in other threads when a [insert Enlisted rank] doesn't salute them.

Edited June 1, 2011 by Crew Report

[nsplayr]

The irony in this are the Lt/Junior Capt's that won't salute Maj's cause of the "bro rule" are the same douchenozzles who get pissy in other threads when a [insert Enlisted rank] doesn't salute them.

Conjecture. Have that same Lt/Captain walk down Disney in uniform and then have them explain to you the virtue of always being saluted.

Bro rules shouldn't apply in situations where it will be detrimental to the reputation of the squadron you represent. In the squadron parking lot, I will wear my morale patches with pride (and so will the SQ/CC) and probably not salute my O-3 bros because they are my bros. I'll roll my sleeves up and guys who chew might spit on the ground. Outside the Wing HQ or the gym or clinic or wherever else, we will follow the rules to a T because the last thing the Boss needs is some Chief or uptight Lt. Col. coming to him asking why his Lts aren't following the rules.

Part of the unwritten rule is to continue to have SA on your surroundings when applying the other unwritten rules.

Edited June 1, 2011 by nsplayr

[schokie]

Part of the unwritten rule is to continue to have SA on your surroundings when applying the other unwritten rules.

Agreed. When I was a Lt I wouldn't salute a Capt that was in a bag, but if I was in the BX parking lot I would salute a Capt or Maj that was in BDUs. It certainly wasn't that I respected treesuiters more than flyers, just that I was aware that different communities and areas of base have different 'standards' for C&C. And as nsplayer mentioned, the last thing I wanted as a Lt was to get shit on by the Boss because he got shit on by his boss because of something I did.

I don't see this as someone not caring about C&C or military tradition. We of all people can appreciate military tradition since we're always bitching about out the AF doesn't seem to care about it. It has more to do with the bro level way of life and the group dynamics of a flying squadron. The way I as a Capt interact with a Maj or Lt Col is my squadron is not at all the same way those ranks would interact in the Army, or even in the Comm Sq.

No rank in the jet, no rank in the debrief, and no rank in the bar naturally leads to an attitude of no rank in the office or the parking lot. Not saying it's bad, just saying that's the way things are in the flying world. But when it comes down to respecting rank, we all understand flight discipline and the way the military functions. Our way is not the only way, nor is it best for everyone else.

[lazlo]

Agreed. When I was a Lt I wouldn't salute a Capt that was in a bag, but if I was in the BX parking lot I would salute a Capt or Maj that was in BDUs. It certainly wasn't that I respected treesuiters more than flyers, just that I was aware that different communities and areas of base have different 'standards' for C&C. And as nsplayer mentioned, the last thing I wanted as a Lt was to get shit on by the Boss because he got shit on by his boss because of something I did.

I don't see this as someone not caring about C&C or military tradition. We of all people can appreciate military tradition since we're always bitching about out the AF doesn't seem to care about it. It has more to do with the bro level way of life and the group dynamics of a flying squadron. The way I as a Capt interact with a Maj or Lt Col is my squadron is not at all the same way those ranks would interact in the Army, or even in the Comm Sq.

No rank in the jet, no rank in the debrief, and no rank in the bar naturally leads to an attitude of no rank in the office or the parking lot. Not saying it's bad, just saying that's the way things are in the flying world. But when it comes down to respecting rank, we all understand flight discipline and the way the military functions. Our way is not the only way, nor is it best for everyone else.

shack

[pawnman]

I worked at IBM as a co-op during college, and was given a very, very lucrative job offer when I graduated. I passed on it to roll the bones on becoming an officer and a pilot,... and maybe be a part of something bigger,... at least that was what my 22 year old mind was telling me.

I was and still am proud to wear the uniform of the USAF. On the day I was commissioned, I was pretty pleased to be wearing it,... even those it was the Blues... a uniform that many of you despise.

And as for the saluting, if you feel it is beneath you to salute, then I really don't know what do say. I just don't get it. Do you not make eye contact? Do you not say "yo, what's up?" Or is this some sort of way you compensate for your small penis?

Oh, and the next time any of you Captains walks by a Lieutenant Commander at the Pentagon, make sure you explain to him how "in my squadron, we have a 'one up, one down rule.'" Yet another reason the other Services often laugh at our attitude.

I'm certainly not very "traditional" in a military sense, no matter how you look at it. But for crying out loud, you wanted to be here,... try to enjoy the customs and courtesies. It's not a burden.

NSPlayer beat me to it...it's a rule that generally applies to members of the squadron. Random O-4 I've never met, that guy gets a salute. O-4 that I've known for 2 years and flown in combat with? "Hey, how's it going, [callsign]?"

[AZwildcat]

shack

2, you guys called it. The thing that Col space wings above doesn't get is that aviators are paid to have judgement and common sense. How can I possibly not salute other CGOs, roll my sleeves up, get shit faced at the bar, and sing dirty songs and yet still be trusted to go out and perform my mission and bring myself and the jet back safely? Because I can f^cking exercise good judgement and common sense as to what is appropriate and where.

[outbreak]

Next article, "Club Membership, What's In It For Me? Wrong Question."

Being a glutton for punishment, I briefly searched for this "next article." No joy.

[Guest]

I'm certainly not very "traditional" in a military sense, no matter how you look at it. But for crying out loud, you wanted to be here,... try to enjoy the customs and courtesies. It's not a burden.

Can I get an AMEN?!

WWROD

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

There are two sides to this, and it comes down to there being two different worlds within the AF. There is the flying world and the non-flying world. I've always been taught "when in doubt, salute" and in my opinion, this is the safest COA. You may come off looking like a tool, but you will be in the right. Flyers are all bros. If you're not a bro in your squadron, you should probably be wondering why. This leads to the "there's no rank among LTs/CGOs/Bro" thing. Whether it's right or not, it is what it is, and it's a tradition. I remember being a 2Lt with wings at laughlin and being saluted by other 2Lts without wings. 99% chance it's because it was a poor VID, but in the grand scheme of things it is what it is. We as flyers tend to respect those with experience more than those with rank. The flying AF is a weird dynamic unique to the entire military. The AF is the ONLY place where a Capt (AC) will have absolute legal authority over an O4+. That's another place where the bro system will come into play. A bro AC will ALWAYS win over a "i'm the AC deal with it" AC because he fosters the environment of mutual responsibility and respect. That's something the "rest" of the military will never understand. The AF's "position trumps rank" perspective is what leads to our existing mutualism system. This provides unique leadership challenges for the Jr. AC, but at the same time allows for a much more inclusive dynamic if things are done properly.

[M2]

Can I get an AMEN?!

WWROD

AMEN!

Seriously, is it that fucking hard to salute someone?

When I was still in I saluted buds who outranked me, because they earned it, and I respected that!

[Learjetter]

AMEN!

Seriously, is it that fucking hard to salute someone?

When I was still in I saluted buds who outranked me, because they earned it, and I respected that!

Fuckin' A "2!"

[amcflyboy]

AMEN!

Seriously, is it that fucking hard to salute someone?

When I was still in I saluted buds who outranked me, because they earned it, and I respected that!

Spot on.

[HeloDude]

I've been delaying adding my thoughts on this issue, but I think now's a good as time as any.

-First, the philosophy of a flying squadron vs a non-flying squadron:

I love the tradition (what we have left) of being different than non-flying squadrons. I love that we still bars, can drink a beer while debriefing after a night line, can tease each other about stupid/silly things, and have strong relationships/camaraderie that stem from flying with each other in the aircraft, hacking the mission together, and putting up with all the crap together. I'm a big believer that 'excessive courtesy', though hard to avoid when flying with an O-6+, has a big negative effect on CRM in the aircraft (safety and mission wise), and can also hinder productive briefs/debriefs, etc.

All this being said, believing that rank and customs/courtesies need not exist in the squadron hurts things more than it helps. It's all fun and games until your "buddy" who outranks you gives you a shit job because it's your turn and you feel he's being unfair, you have to counsel an FE for failing to follow directives (after being told times before), your boss picks someone else for the next upgrade, etc. Though I'm a big believer of having a fun place to work, good order and discipline can't be ignored, and if you think that as a Captain you don't have a salute a bro who's a Major, then how will things go when it gets a little ugly? Things are different in the flying world, but you're still in the military--don't look like crap in your uniform because you don't care, don't act like you're so important you can blow things off because everyone's 'cool with each other', and for crying out loud, have a little pride in what you do. You can still have fun and be an awesome pilot/aircrew member while continuing to be a professional.

-2Lt's not saluting 1Lt's

I think this is the least of our problems in the Air Force...but it does make for an interesting argument. I was also told this as a young 2Lt at UPT, that 'Lieutenants shouldn't salute other Lieutenants'. I remember saluting 1Lt FAIP's and getting laughed at sometimes, but oh well, it put a smile on face to make someone else laugh...and it was much better than dealing with that one ass 1Lt FAIP would chew us out for not doing so. As for me, I never cared if a 2Lt saluted me as a 1Lt--maybe I should have, but I was definitely going to make sure that I wasn't in the wrong as a 2Lt. Also, like others have said, what does a 2Lt do when a 1Lt gives a directive--if you don't think the 1Lt is any different than you, you probably won't execute as well--attitude has everything to do with it. As you an see, this is a much bigger than just rendering salutes.

-Something else to ponder: What example does it set for Senior Airman who are in charge of A1C's? They're both 'Airman' right? You'd be surprised how much they see what goes on, whether in a flying squadron or not (we have 3 stripe ARMS troops in charge of 2-stripers), and in the end, it sets a bad example to just blow things off...again, I'm not focusing on the saluting part of it per se, just the overall impression that people close in rank are 'the same'.

I guess what really got me going was when some of you guys said it was cool for Captains to not salute Majors and that it's all about 'crew position', even when it has nothing to do with flying, preparing for a flight, or the brief/debrief. This is foul IMO. In the past, I've witnessed instructor FE's/Gunners treat student pilots like crap and be disrespectful because they were instructors and the student was unqualed, which I always believed was uncalled for...fortunately I've seen this improve over the years, but it still exists.

In the end, take your job seriously, treat people fairly and with mutual respect, and have fun doing the best job in the world!

[ThreeHoler]

2.

[FourFans]

Seriously?

::entitlement generation:: "I'm entitled to not salute some people because that's what I'm entitled to do as a flyer." Noted.

It's a salute. A sign of respect. If you're not going to salute brothers that have paid their dues longer than you have, what exactly is the purpose of a salute? You people are making it sound like a salute somehow degrades the relationship you have with the person you're saluting. What is this, kindergarden? Haha! Timmy saluted Jonny!

Grow up. If you want to be called a professional, you have to act like one first.

Once again: WWROD. I'm pretty sure he saluted people that outranked him and didn't give people flak for saluting him. It ain't that tough.

FF

[AEWingsMN]

alright, my .02,

Most Lt's whether 1st or 2nd have a similar sense of experience, "I'm the FNG... and so is that Lt." At least in a rated community, I think a big part of it comes from the fact that for the most part we're all in about the same stage of training, no matter if 1st or 2nd. We have no sense of a real difference between the two ranks.

Part of this is because some of us have been delayed 6 months to EAD (which messes with DOR), then sat casual for 6-9 months, and then started UPT/UNT with a bunch of other guys that have +/- 1 year of time since commissioning and have done just about as much with their career whether they have pinned the blue on based on a technicality. Some spent a year extra in college with rank on their shoulder, but are just as new to the Active AF in their mind. So now we just become a bunch of know nothing LTs in a UPT/UNT class together, some have hit that magical date of 2 years, some haven't, but we give each other all the same respect and just treat each other as fellow students. And even after graduation, the only difference amongst us and our fellow peers who haven't graduated yet is already labelled with whether or not we have wings on our chest yet.

So yes, while some of us now have wings, none of us (for the most part) have any true experience working operationally, deploying, leading, or anything that makes us feel we stand out in any deserving matter that our peers should be saluting us. This isn't the same as enlisted not saluting officers, or even us saluting our bosses if they are also a LT. I think a lot of the issue isn't stemming from the 2 Lt not wanting to salute the 1 Lt in their peers, I think it stems from them being shot down originally (or just flat out told not to). I remember when I was first told to stop, and I just didn't understand it. Then as I went through my UPT/UNT training it clicked that they just don't feel they have done anything different than their LT peers to be deserving of a salute from them. That and we end up in such a big mix of LTs in training at most places that they spend time (UPT/UNT/ASBC/IFS) that it'd be constant salutes. Hell, I remember even the Capt's in my UPT class wanted us not to salute them (still did).

And on top of all that, most of my bros lately haven't even realized they are a 1 Lt for a few weeks until they can't figure out why their paycheck went up or they randomly check MPF and have the "damn, I was supposed to be wearing blue on my shoulders for a few weeks now." There's no notice, no board, no reason to really feel like anything's changed.

I'd gladly have saluted 1sts and have nothing against them doing it to me, it's just not the way things are done, so I've been convinced to stop as it's a futile fight to fight.

Edited June 2, 2011 by AEWingsMN

[nsplayr]

I guess flying squadrons and LTs aren't the unified group of slackes Col. Jar Jar thought...too bad he took the time to write that article.

[ram02]

And on top of all that, most of my bros lately haven't even realized they are a 1 Lt for a few weeks until they can't figure out why their paycheck went up or they randomly check MPF and have the "damn, I was supposed to be wearing blue on my shoulders for a few weeks now."

I never understood why this attitude was considered "cool." I understand it's not the biggest promotion in the world going from second lieutenant to first, but how hard is it to take just a little bit of interest in your own career and know your own date of rank? That way, you could drop the 50 cents at the BX a few days ahead of time, pick up some blue bars, and have them sewn on so you can show up wearing the right rank on the right day. Call me crazy, but that sounds like something an "officer" would do -- you know, having some SA and taking some personal responsibility for something related to their career.

Edit: spelling

Edited June 2, 2011 by ram02

[StoleIt]

I never understood why this attitude was considered "cool." I understand it's not the biggest promotion in the world going from second lieutenant to first, but how hard is it to take just a little bit of interest in your own career and know your own date of rank? That way, you could drop the 50 cents at the BX a few days ahead of time, pick up some blue bars, and have them sewn on so you can show up wearing the right rank on the right day. Call me crazy, but that sounds like something an "officer" would do -- you know, having some SA and taking some personal responsibility for something related to their career.

Edit: spelling

Because most of the people have their head burried in the dash 1 studying the shit out of the T-6/-1/-38/etc when it happens...and nobody gives a shit.

I remember seeing pictures of a promotion party of a ROTC buddy on Facebook. He had a party, guests, cake, etc...he was a finance officer. He had already been doing his REAL job for several months.

What are UPT students doing when they hit 1LT? They are STUDENTS. The last thing on anyones mind is their date of rank. They are just trying to survive the day to day grind.

I know...because I was one of those guys who missed their own promotion. Nobody gave a shit.

Trying to convince a 2LT to keep tabs on something that insignificant (IMO) is silly. Worry about something "important" like being prepared for your flight. Not running around all day getting shit sown onto your flight suit while you are still in formal release.

Edited June 2, 2011 by stoleit2x

[outbreak]

Call me crazy, but that sounds like something an "officer" would do -- you know, having some SA and taking some personal responsibility for something related to their career.

Edit: spelling

You're crazy.

I'm hours away from not being a LT anymore, and I know that date. But in the last four years, I've gotten so fucking sick of people lecturing me about my career. I don't have time for a career. I'm in phase for mission and qual checks, trying to start upgrade training, and semi-annuals are due in less than a month. That doesn't even touch my non-flying duties. How about I worry about my job and when I need to know my date of rank, I'll check VMPF.

[KennyB]

What are UPT students doing when they hit 1LT? They are STUDENTS. I know...because I was one of those guys who missed their own promotion..

I'm hours away from not being a LT anymore... I'm in phase for mission and qual checks, trying to start upgrade training, and semi-annuals are due in less than a month... when I need to know my date of rank, I'll check VMPF.

Good for you guys! Sounds like a couple Lts with a rough ass life right there. Sorry to break to you to you boys, but your precious time will only get less with every year you're in the AF. Wake up, manage your own training (and I guess I need to add promotion in there!) and stop whining. Good to hear how rough you guys have it. It must only be sunshine and roses once you get past SUPT.

Call me crazy, but that sounds like something an "officer" would do -- you know, having some SA and taking some personal responsibility for something related to their career.

Shack.

[Right Seat Driver]

Worrying about your career, degree, PME, etc while in UPT/FTU etc is one thing, but a 6-9 second glance at vMPF once every two years won't lead to a busted ride.