"No Rank Amongst Lieutenants"

[nsplayr]

You can find many examples in the -1 of certain aircraft. But ye of narrow mind and quick anger probably would have a cranial explosion if you were to actually read it in print.

I'm not very narrow in any way or angry right now, I'm curious. What military aircraft refer to their copilots as First Officers? Mine doesn't, so that's minus one from the 69 possibilities.

If you're talking airlines cool, just be clear b/c around here we're assuming military for obvious reasons.

[Champ Kind]

ThreeHoler refers to the KC-10, not his personal life.

I LOLed.

[Karl Hungus]

I'm not very narrow in any way or angry right now, I'm curious. What military aircraft refer to their copilots as First Officers? Mine doesn't, so that's minus one from the 69 possibilities.

If you're talking airlines cool, just be clear b/c around here we're assuming military for obvious reasons.

He's saying that the -1 in the KC-10 refers extensively to the "First Officer" and "Captain" in duties, cockpit switches, etc etc. Mainly because the AF copied and pasted a large majority of it from the DC-10 manual. Most people don't give it a second thought.

That said, I've never heard of someone in the -10 community refer to "copilots" as "first officers", or even "first pilots" for that matter.

[Spoo]

He's saying that the -1 in the KC-10 refers extensively to the "First Officer" and "Captain" in duties, cockpit switches, etc etc. Mainly because the AF copied and pasted a large majority of it from the DC-10 manual. Most people don't give it a second thought.

Why didn't he just say that then, instead of spewing that "but ye of narrow mind" bullshit?

[FlyinGrunt]

eh, and AMC says a copilot is a "first pilot" but that doesn't mean it's not BS as well.

[JS]

Minor point, but FP = Flight Pilot in the Herc and C-17 world, not first pilot. I have seen a lot of guys mistakenly think that we use airline terminology and that FP stands for first pilot.

[ThreeHoler]

Perhaps, someone on the Interweb tubes might one day say something that is just right enough or just wrong enough because that person knows that many other people will twist in the wind frivolously over the perceived imperfection...

Irregardless*, lighten up, Francis!

*Yes, I can use this abomination of a word now that it is officially in the dictionary.

[Guest Crew Report]

eh, and AMC says a copilot is a "first pilot" but that doesn't mean it's not BS as well.

By AMC you mean only airlifters, sure.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Crew Report

[Hacker]

That said, I've never heard of someone in the -10 community refer to "copilots" as "first officers"

This was what I was getting at.

[B.M.]

Irregardless*

*Yes, I can use this abomination of a word now that it is officially in the dictionary.

So is the rusty trombone, but that doesn't mean you should use it in polite company.

[stract]

FP = First Pilot in my community. Basically when we allow mission copilots (who are also FPs) to take the A-code for non-tactical missions, like ferry flights or cross countries.

[FlyinGrunt]

JS - looks like I stand corrected, thanks. Always good to get the correct info. I think my sentiment stands though.

Stract's point is also valid - if you've got the A-code, you're not a copilot anymore (at least for that flight.)

[Vicious3027]

Well, I am new to this, but I thought I would give my .02

I can't remember what documentary I was watching, but the documentary was interviewing (at the time) the Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps. He said that even though he is the highest ranking enlisted man in the Marines and one of the oldest, he still salutes the brand-spanking new 2nd LT. The reason he salutes is not because he is obligated to salute as per military customs and courtesy. The reason he salutes that young LT is because it is a reminder to that LT that he/she is a leader and they have to make tough decisions if they are the ranking member.

That said, IMO I believe that 2LTs should salute 1LTs based on the above example. They may have been promoted based solely on "Time in Grade", but in the end they are higher rank and should rate a salute, regardless if the person who renders the salute is a 2LT.

Bottom line: More rank = More responsibility. Show some respect. Render a damn salute and carry on about your business...

Vicious

[pawnman]

I must admit...I'm surprised that so many people were on the side of a 2LT saluting a 1LT, when so many are opposed to other things that, in my mind, carry about equal weight...AFI 36-2903 (that uniform reg that won't let you wear a morale patch or roll up the sleeves on your flight suit), reflective belt policies, tucking in PT gear, etc.

I thought it would be a pretty universal mockery of the original article. Shows what I know.

<- (This guy is saluting with his left hand...someone should tell him!)

[HeloDude]

<- (This guy is saluting with his left hand...someone should tell him!)

But he's only got one hand, so it's alright...he has a waiver.

[wings]

I'm surprised we are still talking about this. When I first saw the thread title I was sure we were going to laugh at shoes and the like, but I stand corrected. I had no idea that this was such a big concern. I'm pretty sure as a Lt I can count on one hand how many times I either saluted a 1Lt or received a salute from a 2Lt. Never thought twice about it. Apparently the Chiefs and Shoes have conquered the reflective belt issues and blatant disregard to PT uniform policies across the combat theaters and now are focussing on something much more detrimental to the combat effectiveness of the Air Force. Maybe when I'm an O-5+ or go do a staff tour I'll understand the "Big Picture." Until then however I'll continue joking in the bar about how Lt's saluting is gayer that two dudes fu#@ing.

Cheers

Edit: Spelling

Edited June 23, 2011 by wings

[Boxhead]

I must admit...I'm surprised that so many people were on the side of a 2LT saluting a 1LT, when so many are opposed to other things that, in my mind, carry about equal weight...AFI 36-2903 (that uniform reg that won't let you wear a morale patch or roll up the sleeves on your flight suit), reflective belt policies, tucking in PT gear, etc.

I thought it would be a pretty universal mockery of the original article. Shows what I know.

I would argue that example is apples and oranges. There is not an AFI in existence that has been around even remotely as long as the custom/courtesy of saluting. We complain about having no heritage, no history, and one of the few things that has stuck around in virtually every military in the western world...that's the one that folks think is OK to disregard.

We are our own worst enemy.

[wings]

0

I would argue that example is apples and oranges. There is not an AFI in existence that has been around even remotely as long as the custom/courtesy of saluting. We complain about having no heritage, no history, and one of the few things that has stuck around in virtually every military in the western world...that's the one that folks think is OK to disregard.

We are our own worst enemy.

And I would disagree. I get that Lts and Capts should salute (we don't always, but should). But as a Lieutenant no matter 1st or 2nd, you're still a Lieutenant. ID card doesn't differentiate. Its like and AB-A1C calling each other sir, doesn't happen. Their ID Cards all say Amn (I know I was one). I don't think that it shows a lack of "heritage" or "custom/courtesy" I think it is an acknowledgment that you are new and are not in a position to command each other (at least in the fighter community). There is a larger difference between a new Capt and a senior Capt than that of a 2Lt and 1Lt in both experience and leadership responsibilities. I don't get it, the ones that are complaining about the lack of heritage are usually the ones in a position to do something about it. I assure you it's not the Lt's ruining the heritage in the Air Force (they're the ones fighting for it).

Cheers

Edited June 23, 2011 by wings

[Danny Noonin]

I would argue that example is apples and oranges. There is not an AFI in existence that has been around even remotely as long as the custom/courtesy of saluting. We complain about having no heritage, no history, and one of the few things that has stuck around in virtually every military in the western world...that's the one that folks think is OK to disregard.

We are our own worst enemy.

So under your "custom and courtesy" argument, you of course called 1st Lieutentants "sir/ma'am" when you were a 2nd Lieutenant, right? After all, that is also custom and courtesy.

[Boxhead]

So under your "custom and courtesy" argument, you of course called 1st Lieutentants "sir/ma'am" when you were a 2nd Lieutenant, right? After all, that is also custom and courtesy.

I did, esp in public, where all that silly saluting was happening. I took some minor grief from some on it, but they got over it, returned the salute and we all then got along just fine.

As for the other point, I was an airman as well, and while we did not always say "Sir" to an Airman that outranked us, there as hell was a respect and pecking order, even from 1 to 2 stripes. And A1C were in charge of 1 stripers, and SrA/Buck Sgts were supervisors. Also, once you hit SSgt, you stopped going to parties with Airmen...ah well, that was a long time ago.

Simple fact is that the only Lts that have heartburn with saluting each other (overall, I am sure there are counter-examples) are folks with an 11 or a 12 in the front of their AFSC. They want all the "cool" parts they feel they deserve with wings on, but don't really want to do any of that "gay" stuff that goes along with their rank.

Your Airmen see everything you do. As soon as a 2Lt does not salute a 1Lt, their brain will think why should a Airman salute a 2Lt, after all the only difference between the two is that the Airman has been promoted once...right? I mean, where do the cool, "we are all cool together" unwritten rules start to trump the written guidance? If it's not in a yellow checklist it does not matter I suppose.

It's just something that folks will never agree on, and that's OK, esp on the internet.

[bqpilot2000]

"Your Airmen see everything you do. As soon as a 2Lt does not salute a 1Lt, their brain will think why should a Airman salute a 2Lt, after all the only difference between the two is that the Airman has been promoted once...right? I mean, where do the cool, "we are all cool together" unwritten rules start to trump the written guidance? If it's not in a yellow checklist it does not matter I suppose".

- I forgot... our squadrons are overrun by airmen. In fact, I think we may have one in our squadron... yep one out of 100 people is an airmen. I love that argument. Since sometimes I didnt salute a 1Lt as a 2Lt, that probably means I'm skipping checklist steps also.

This whole thing is summed up by two words... SITUATIONAL AWARNESS. Something we, as aircrew, should have. Have I busted AFIs before... yes, because it was the right decision based on a couple thousand hours of airmanship to safely recover a jet. When I was a 2Lt did I salute all 1Lts? Yes, at first, then I gained SA as to when it was/was not appropriate. For Gods sake, you're a college graduate, use some of the $100,000 of SA (plus whatever AF training you have) and do what is appropriate for the situation. Maybe then we can fix real problems instead of changing uniforms and upping our reflectivity. I mean, do you honestly think the enlisted crew in WWII saluted their pilots as they were taking off for a one-way bomber mission over Germany? I don't know how the AF survived with all these bad examples going back in time!

[Smokin]

Also, once you hit SSgt, you stopped going to parties with Airmen...ah well, that was a long time ago.

That is true because the junior airmen are generally not mature enough to understand the difference between the relationship at work and drinking with friends. In a previous squadron, some of us officers often invited our two MSgts to go out for dinner and drinks. We knew that they could handle the distinction. Many, if not most, A1Cs can't and we had problems with the exact situation you described.

There is a time and a place for everything. I would expect a 2Lt to salute a 1Lt in the BX parking lot where there are tons of junior enlisted around. If they are in the squadron parking lot where no one else is around, I would laugh at the 2Lt if he saluted.

As bq said, the (generally) better situational awareness and maturity of senior enlisted and officers is what gives them a little discretion as to when to have full up customs and courtesies and when it is ok to relax a little. When I'm in the work environment and the SQ/CC walks into the room, I stand up and greet him. When in the bar or the SQ/CC's office drinking a scotch, I'll call him by his call sign as long as I know he's cool with it.

[GovernmentMan]

I'm still as baffled as ever about why this is such a BFD. Having SA and being polite is like 99% of it, but I guess it's a little too much to ask of some people.

[Vicious3027]

That is true because the junior airmen are generally not mature enough to understand the difference between the relationship at work and drinking with friends.

Agreed!!

[Chida]

I did, esp in public, where all that silly saluting was happening. I took some minor grief from some on it, but they got over it, returned the salute and we all then got along just fine.

As for the other point, I was an airman as well, and while we did not always say "Sir" to an Airman that outranked us, there as hell was a respect and pecking order, even from 1 to 2 stripes. And A1C were in charge of 1 stripers, and SrA/Buck Sgts were supervisors. Also, once you hit SSgt, you stopped going to parties with Airmen...ah well, that was a long time ago.

Simple fact is that the only Lts that have heartburn with saluting each other (overall, I am sure there are counter-examples) are folks with an 11 or a 12 in the front of their AFSC. They want all the "cool" parts they feel they deserve with wings on, but don't really want to do any of that "gay" stuff that goes along with their rank.

Your Airmen see everything you do. As soon as a 2Lt does not salute a 1Lt, their brain will think why should a Airman salute a 2Lt, after all the only difference between the two is that the Airman has been promoted once...right? I mean, where do the cool, "we are all cool together" unwritten rules start to trump the written guidance? If it's not in a yellow checklist it does not matter I suppose.

It's just something that folks will never agree on, and that's OK, esp on the internet.

This. From the guy who told me he outranked me when we were both Captains because he was an O3-E. Not that's there's anything wrong with that... :)