Non Continuation for passed over Majs

[pilot-99999]

Anyone hear about Majors not getting a continuation to 20 years after being passed over twice? I am hearing rumors. Has something like this ever happened before? Talk about wrong... kicking out a 15 year officer after recalling 100's of others who had alreay gotten out these the past few years.

[ClearedHot]

I previously closed the thread because the non-continuation has been discussed before on this site and I thought it was common knowledge. I’ve been asked to open the thread back up and I’ve done so while cleaning out the chaff. We will try to keep the noise at an acceptable level and discuss how this is going to affect everyone and the rated force.

We all know there is a projected shortage of 250 fighter pilots by the end of the year, growing to 1,000 over the next three (I think it will be higher if the economy recovers).

The latest promotion stats for the just released O-5 board. Some clarification from the experts, is continuation offered on a year to year basis?

The IPZ selection rate for Pilots was 74.7% - 327selected out of 438 considered, 111 not selected.

The IPZ selection rate for Navs was 77.1% - 84 selected out of 109 considered, 25 not selected.

The APZ selection rate was Pilots was .9% - 5 selected out of 539 considered, 534 not selected.

The APZ selection rate was Navs was 1.2% - 2 selected out of 173 considered, 171 not selected.

The APZ numbers are a bit skewed because many are folks who are multiple times passed over serving on continuation to 20. If continuation is offered year to year and the policy has changed, then we would have a large numbers of folks who will be separating in the near future.

Edited June 17, 2011 by ClearedHot

[ThreeHoler]

Some clarification from the experts, is continuation offered on a year to year basis?

Not an expert, but selective continuation is based on the SECAF's perceived needs of the AF. The AFPC promotion site has links to all the important source documents.

Based on the needs of the Air Force, SECAF determines eligibility criteria for continuation.

current and projected Air Force needs and can change from board to board and year to year.

However, once approved for continuation to 20/24, there is a huge process outlined in AFI 36-2501 that covers removing a continued officer from the continuation list. Chapter 7, I think.

Edited June 17, 2011 by ThreeHoler

[LUGNUT]

All Majors will be allowed to go to 20 if twice passed over. If you have more than 20, you are getting the boot. I have almost 23 in due to 9 yrs prior enlisted and just got the bombshell yesterday. I have to retire by 30 Nov 11. Crazy, since I just PCS'd and completed MQ-9 FTU 8 months ago and was suppose to be on the pilot bonus for another 2.5 more years. I'm not really all that pissed, just hate not being in the driver's seat for such a huge life changer. Good thing I'm single and don't have a family.

[nsplayr]

All Majors will be allowed to go to 20 if twice passed over.

This does not seem to be the case anymore based on the examples people have provided in the VSP thread, starting here. Any thoughts on those data points that directly contradict this claim?

Edited June 17, 2011 by nsplayr

[Guest Hueypilot812]

Looking at the list I saw, MOST Majors twice passed over were being forced to separate or retire, if eligible.

I have 8 years with the ARNG, and currently 11 active AF years (for a total of 13 active years for retirement purposes). If I were passed over a second time, I'd have about 23 years total, and 17 years for retirement purposes. If this is the game they are playing, I would NOT be eligible to return to the ARC and retire, nor would I be eligible for an active retirement (and I'd miss sanctuary by a year).

So if this is going to be business as usual from now on, I'm very tempted to jump to the ARC now. I'm pretty sure a lot of junior majors in my shoes are thinking the exact same thing.

[Guest]

I would NOT be eligible to return to the ARC and retire

Why not?

[Prozac]

Why not?

I think the fear is that by that point you'd be to old/non-promotable to be marketable to the ARC.

[Guest]

I think the fear is that by that point you'd be to old/non-promotable to be marketable to the ARC.

That depends. People get passed over for all kinds of reasons. Many of those people are exactly what many units would like to see. A guy like Huey with previous experience would know the drill (pun intended) and likely fill a gap for many units. Maybe not full time but nothing is out of the question.

I was wondering if there was some new policy specific to this from AFRES or ANGB.

[SuperWSO]

That depends. People get passed over for all kinds of reasons. Many of those people are exactly what many units would like to see. A guy like Huey with previous experience would know the drill (pun intended) and likely fill a gap for many units. Maybe not full time but nothing is out of the question.

I was wondering if there was some new policy specific to this from AFRES or ANGB.

This is the verbatim guidance provided to those selected for non-continuation.

9. REGULAR OFFICERS: Regular officers who are discharged based upon nonselection for promotion are ineligible for a Reserve appointment (AFI 36-2005, Appointment in Commisioned Grades and Designation and Assignment in Professional Categories, Table 2-2, item 25). A waiver of this policy will be granted only in rare instances, wherein (1) the officer's specialty (AFSC) and experience are demonstrated to be extremely critical to the Reserve Forces, (2) the quality of the officers past performance and conduct is judged to be exceptional, and (3) a Guard or Reserve unit endorses the officer's request to affiliate. For further information regarding waiver requirements for Reserve appointment, contact HQ ARPC/DRPB, DSN 926-6446.

From my prior time in the Guard, I've seen people with serious career problems make the jump to the Guard and continue to move up. I'm not sure if this request for a waiver is a formality or if this is a further attempt to stick it to the folks being forced out this year.

[Carpetbagger]

This is the verbatim guidance provided to those selected for non-continuation. From my prior time in the Guard, I've seen people with serious career problems make the jump to the Guard and continue to move up. I'm not sure if this request for a waiver is a formality or if this is a further attempt to stick it to the folks being forced out this year.

9. REGULAR OFFICERS: Regular officers who are discharged based upon nonselection for promotion are ineligible for a Reserve appointment (AFI 36-2005, Appointment in Commisioned Grades and Designation and Assignment in Professional Categories, Table 2-2, item 25). A waiver of this policy will be granted only in rare instances, wherein (1) the officer's specialty (AFSC) and experience are demonstrated to be extremely critical to the Reserve Forces, (2) the quality of the officers past performance and conduct is judged to be exceptional, and (3) a Guard or Reserve unit endorses the officer's request to affiliate. For further information regarding waiver requirements for Reserve appointment, contact HQ ARPC/DRPB, DSN 926-6446.

We have a VERY difficult time getting folks into the reserves from AD who:

1) Non-selected x 2 - Requires an AFRC waiver that takes a good bit of time to accomplish (not impossible, but don't expect to leave on Friday, switch patches, and show up on Monday as a reservist.)

2) Retirees looking to draw their AD retirement while serving in the reserves - Also requires an AFRC waiver that will almost always get denied (we've gotten a couple of folks through this program, but it took years [literally] to gain them.)

Recommendation: If you want to come to the ARC, make the decision early and either Palace Chase, or transfer BEFORE your second non-selection. Then finish out your 20 in the reserves, get a retirement at 59, or immediately if you have 7300 points (explained somewhere else...) We've had several folks "leave on Friday and show up on Monday" who either 7 day opted or just separated without being non-selected twice.

Guard may have an easier process than AFRC.

[SuperWSO]

Here it is, hot off the presses. Instructions to the FY11 LAF Lt Col promotion board. For those interested in the continuation process, skip to page 4. It appears that anyone on a normal path through the AF without prior enlisted time ran afoul of the following direction

"However, as we are in a period of force reduction you normally should not continue and officer with negative quality indicators documented in his or her recored, or who will not qualify for retirement within five years of the convening date of the board."

Since this was the 96 year group, we all hit 5 years to retirement at some point in 2011. The board was held beginning on 7 March. I guess anyone who was commissioned before 7 Mar in 1996 got lucky.

LTC board instructions.pdf

Edited June 18, 2011 by SuperWSO

[BitteEinBit]

Here it is, hot off the presses. Instructions to the FY11 LAF Lt Col promotion board. For those interested in the continuation process, skip to page 4. It appears that anyone on a normal path through the AF without prior enlisted time ran afoul of the following direction

Since this was the 96 year group, we all hit 5 years to retirement at some point in 2011. The board was held beginning on 7 March. I guess anyone who was commissioned before 7 Mar in 1996 got lucky.

Interesting...the SECAF used "within 5 years of retirement" for the board consideration when the DoDD 1320.8 says "within 6 years of retirement"...

Ref: DoDD 1320.6 Section 4:

4.3. Continuation of Officers Serving in the Grade of O-4. Commissioned officers on the Active Duty List who hold the grade O-4, who are subject to discharge under Section 632 of reference (b), shall normally be selected for continuation by selection boards convened for that purpose if the officer will qualify for retirement under Section 3911, 6323, or 8911 of reference (b) within six years of the date of such continuation. The Secretaries of the Military Departments concerned may, in unusual circumstances, discharge involuntarily such officers in accordance with Section 632 of reference (b) after notifying the Secretary of Defense of the rationale for this action. The involuntary discharge shall not be used to circumvent legal proceedings, show-cause procedures, or release an affected officer who is within two years of qualifying for retirement under Section 3911, 6323, or 8911 of reference (b).

Of course, the catch all is that it is "needs of the Air Force" and "determined by the SECAF" Unfortunately in this case, the SECAF used 5 years to retirement from the date of the board, when DoDD 1320.6 uses within 6 years of retirement as of the date of continuation, which AFI 36-2405 defines the continuation period as normally starting on the 1st day of the 7th month after the board results are approved. That would put the 5-years to retirement date as of 1 Dec 11.

Ref: AFI 36-2405, para 7.11.3

7.11.3. Normally, the continuation period begins on the 1st day of the 7th month from the approval of

the board results. For officers being further continued, the continuation period begins on the first day

following the completion of their initial continuation period. For officers who are in the retirement

sanctuary or retirement eligible, the continuation period normally begins on the first day following the

20-year DOS

Is there a lawyer in the house??? Was the SECDEF notified as required? Might be worth a congressional inquiry....

I only studied Lawyerology for one semester in college...I'm just sayin'

Edited for reference correction

Edited June 18, 2011 by BitteEinBit

[Smokin]

"after notifying the Secretary of Defense of the rationale for this action" is extremely vague unless the reg spells out a specific notification process in another section. A general passing the SecDef in the hallway at the Pentagon and causally mentioning this topic could be considered notification.

[BitteEinBit]

"after notifying the Secretary of Defense of the rationale for this action" is extremely vague unless the reg spells out a specific notification process in another section. A general passing the SecDef in the hallway at the Pentagon and causally mentioning this topic could be considered notification.

The DoDD spells out what is the standard...The key phrase there is "shall NORMALLY". I would think that anything other than the stardard would be a requirement to notify the SECDEF...thats why I'd let the congressional inquiry figure that out. I would hope that some officers' involuntary separation after 15-16 years of service, with nothing to show, would be worth more than a casual conversation in the hallway at the Pentagon. But then again, it wouldn't surprise me if thats how it actually happened...

Edited June 19, 2011 by BitteEinBit

[backseatdriver]

So let me get this straight - we hide deployments on promotion records and limit discussion of deployed experience in PRFs and OPRs, but the FIRST item under "Considerations in Evaluating Records" in the instructions to the board is:

"Air Force personnel performing duty in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other areas of the world are developing...skills THAT NEED TO BE RETAINED AND UTILIZED FOR FUTURE APPLICATION." (emphasis added)

Then why the eff are deployments not listed on promotion records?

Edited June 19, 2011 by backseatdriver

[ThreeHoler]

So let me get this straight - we hide deployments on promotion records and limit discussion of deployed experience in PRFs and OPRs, but the FIRST item under "Considerations in Evaluating Records" in the instructions to the board is:

"Air Force personnel performing duty in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other areas of the world are developing...skills THAT NEED TO BE RETAINED AND UTILIZED FOR FUTURE APPLICATION." (emphasis added)

Then why the eff are deployments not listed on promotion records?

/devilsadvocate: They are not listed because you already have them in your OPRs and Awards & Decs. There are currently 7 campaign stars for OIF and 3 for OEF. Your PRF should have communicated the at home and deployed impact you had on the AF. Etc, etc, etc.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

I've already made my decision...I was going to stay till 20, take the bonus and try for O-5 or retire as an O-4 if that didn't work out. Now, I'm going to apply for a position with the ARC. Sure, maybe I'd get lucky and get that DP on my PRF and make O-5, but at this point I have 19.5 years of total service (ARNG and AD AF) and I'll be damned if I wind up walking with nothing. So no bonus, but at least I'll have more factors I can control in the ARC...like staying where it matters for my family, not deploying all the damn time (after this upcoming deployment, I'll have spent 1.5 years of the past 4 years deployed while in an AETC billet), and having some kind of guaranteed reward (ie retirement) in place whether I wind up with an AGR/ART position or a traditional position.

Good luck Big Blue. You guys are looking at gutting your force over the next 6-9 years.

[Red Fox]

The USAF under McPeak conducted a RIF (pilots excluded) and also restricted entry into the AF and into UPT and UNT. I was a T-37 IP back then and I remember how small some of the UPT classes were. I moved to PIT at Randolph and the PIT and UNT classes were very small. After McPeak retired and before I left Randolph, the USAF realized it would be short aviators and suddenly reopened the flood gates and asked RIF'd navs to come back into the AF. I specifically remember an AFPC major being quoted when asked about how does the USAF have the gall to ask RIF'd officers to return with "We will ask them to remember Service Before Self". The USAF also created an officer year-group bathtub. But, instead of promoting a higher % of officers on a normal promotion schedule, it accelerated the board cycle. I've know several very fine aviators/officers who are passed-over. I got out of the active duty as a 14 year major and joined the AFRES. I took a cut in pay, but gained much more control of my life and career. In the AFRES, a TR (traditional reservist) pilot can focus on flying/staying current and if one gets their PME complete, getting promoted to O-4/5 is pretty easy. I absolutely have no regrets joining the AFRES. It was a great part-time job. I still got to fly and be associated with a fine organization and with fine aviators, but had control over where I lived and my participation level, and my family and I were much happier. It is an excellent way to transition to civilian life, which we all are faced with eventually. Hueypilot, good luck with the transition. I'll truly be surprised if you regret your decision. I never heard a reservist pilot lament about not being in the AD. To all facing the promotion boards, good luck. If you are passed-over, I hope you are able to see that it is not a reflection of you, but a poor reflection of the USAF and of those who are responsible with the force structure. Regards, RF.

[Rusty Pipes]

Bottom line is that if you were lucky enough to be an OTS grad who finished before Mar or you were a ROTC grad who finished in Dec and didn't pick an AD until 1 Jan- 7 Mar then you sqweeked by... otherwise you were screwed. I know they need to pick a date if they are going to be doing something like this, but since the majority of folks graduate in May from the Academy or ROTC they obviously knew this was going to hit the majority of these people. Of course probably 99% of these folks will have over 15 yrs in by the separation date.

[Chuck17]

Rusty - Still waiting on clarification of your stats bro... 0/6 happened at what base ? Did those guys have the pedigree (AAD / PME, etc) ? Thanks - just trying to help everyone paint an accurate picture.

Chuck

[afnav]

The USAF under McPeak conducted a RIF (pilots excluded) and also restricted entry into the AF and into UPT and UNT. I was a T-37 IP back then and I remember how small some of the UPT classes were. I moved to PIT at Randolph and the PIT and UNT classes were very small. After McPeak retired and before I left Randolph, the USAF realized it would be short aviators and suddenly reopened the flood gates and asked RIF'd navs to come back into the AF. I specifically remember an AFPC major being quoted when asked about how does the USAF have the gall to ask RIF'd officers to return with "We will ask them to remember Service Before Self". The USAF also created an officer year-group bathtub. But, instead of promoting a higher % of officers on a normal promotion schedule, it accelerated the board cycle. I've know several very fine aviators/officers who are passed-over. I got out of the active duty as a 14 year major and joined the AFRES. I took a cut in pay, but gained much more control of my life and career. In the AFRES, a TR (traditional reservist) pilot can focus on flying/staying current and if one gets their PME complete, getting promoted to O-4/5 is pretty easy. I absolutely have no regrets joining the AFRES. It was a great part-time job. I still got to fly and be associated with a fine organization and with fine aviators, but had control over where I lived and my participation level, and my family and I were much happier. It is an excellent way to transition to civilian life, which we all are faced with eventually. Hueypilot, good luck with the transition. I'll truly be surprised if you regret your decision. I never heard a reservist pilot lament about not being in the AD. To all facing the promotion boards, good luck. If you are passed-over, I hope you are able to see that it is not a reflection of you, but a poor reflection of the USAF and of those who are responsible with the force structure. Regards, RF.

We sound like contemporaries. I was caught in the accelerated promotion boards and got killed with a PRF with misspellings all over it. Word to the wise - NO ONE GETS PROMOTED ON SUPPLEMENTAL BOARDS! The rate is like 1%.

If I had it to do over again, I would have left at around the same time (or a little earlier) and joined the guard or reserve.

[Rusty Pipes]

Rusty - Still waiting on clarification of your stats bro... 0/6 happened at what base ? Did those guys have the pedigree (AAD / PME, etc) ? Thanks - just trying to help everyone paint an accurate picture.

Chuck

To protect the innocent I'll say it was an East Coastish AMC base. Stat is off by 2 though. My bud who is the Wing Exec said there were 6 guy up for the board and nobody in the OG got promoted, but there were 2 DPs that went to non-flyers (both school grads) so it was 0/4 with Ps in the OG. Not sure what the cut off criteria was, but he said all had IDE COR/AAD done and none had any bad paperwork. None were in-res school grads and only one guy had a staff tour, but considering rated staff was being manned at something like 3% for years I don't think many folks other than school grads or special program folks like interns had a chance to do staff.

I know there has to be discriminators, but what are we doing to ourselves as a force? I'm sure lots of you saw the AFPC briefs on Officer career progression over the past 2 yrs. It has gone from, "You need to get your Masters" to "When did you get your Masters?" "Do IDE in Cor" to "When did you do your IDE in Cor?" Was anyone else saying WTF when the slide said that you should complete ACSC in Cor before you pin on or it will look bad? So somehow you can complete it in Cor and check the box and it is a negative on your record?!? Do we wonder why the other services laugh at some of the things we do? A few years back I had recently come back from a CAOC deployment just before the Sq was about to head out the door for a flying deployment to the Deid. We had a lot of young pilots who had never deployed and/or never been to the Deid, so since I just got back and been deployed there several times flying the Sq CC asked me to talk to the guys about it at a Roll Call and answer questions. Do you know what they were asking me? "How often do they do SOS testing out there?" "How long does it take them to grade your test so you can sign up for the next one?" "Do they have an Embry Riddle campus out there?" "Do they do tuition assistance at the Ed Center?" REALLY?!?!?!? Not a single question about flying, Ops Tempo, average flying mission! The thing is, you can't blame them! They were going on a combat deployment and their biggest concern was SOS and getting their Masters classes done because that is what we have deemed as important as a service for our officers.

I personally know a couple of these guys who were passed over at said base, and while they certainly weren't trying to be CSAF by any means, they were still playing the game and checking the right boxes, etc. The AF is in a tough situation with these guys and should do the right thing by being straight forward with them, but we know that won't happen. If nothing changes for next year then these guys already know what is going to happen... unless they are in the less than 1% who gets a 1 Above DP then they know that they are going to get booted next year with over 15 yrs, maybe Nov like this round of twice passed over guys. If the AF already knows they are going to do this then they should let them walk with Sep pay now... save the $110K they would have paid them for that extra year and give them a fighting chance to save some sort of military career with a retirement. At least then they may have the chance of getting picked up by a Reserve/Guard unit at 14+ yrs as opposed to 15-16 yrs where it isn't worth it for the unit to hire them on. Unless they were prior E's or late to rate they could probably all just walk now, but then they wouldn't even have the Sep pay to show for it. I'm guessing most of these guys will be just flying the line until then with the young guys, but chances are they aren't going to be singing the praises of Big Blue to the kids. Its just a bad situation for everyone because of the way it was handled by the AF which is unfortunate and is only going to hurt unit morale which sucks. Of course we all know that a year after they pay these guys $120K to get out they are going to call all of them and offer them another $120K to come back and then probably sign another bonus!

[osulax05]

The shit sandwiches that the AF has continued to shove down our collective throats have got me pretty bummed about my future in the AF and I am just a junior Capt. I am curious how the old(er) heads on here think this will play out in the long run. Will the pendulum swing back in a few years and the AF will realize it doesn't have enough O-5/O-6's and everybody with a pulse will get promoted? Or is this really the way of the future?

[SuperWSO]

The shit sandwiches that the AF has continued to shove down our collective throats have got me pretty bummed about my future in the AF and I am just a junior Capt. I am curious how the old(er) heads on here think this will play out in the long run. Will the pendulum swing back in a few years and the AF will realize it doesn't have enough O-5/O-6's and everybody with a pulse will get promoted? Or is this really the way of the future?

I agree with the guys who have said that the decision made on this board will have consequences the manpower people probably were not factoring in. They made a quick decision to cut a group of Majors. They don't understand how that will ripple through guys who have been passed over and Captains reaching the end of their commitment. I suspect the first indicator that will scare the shit out of AFPC will be a sharp reduction in the take rate for the bonus. Most guys were willing to try their luck for Lt Col and maybe retire as a Maj. Getting kicked out with 1 years pay at the 15 year point isn't worth it.